Do you factor in end user serviceability as part of reliability/durability?

[Schokokeks]

I really like to buy well made, durable "buy once, cry once" items, and flashlights are no exception. I really, really like Malkoff lights because they're extremely well made, very durable, AND are easy enough to service if something breaks. When I put in an order, it's maybe $10-15 to toss in a spare set of o-rings, lens, and/or switch.

I've been toying with the idea of picking up an HDS rotary, as the quality, durability, and UI are very, very appealing, too. But, I just can't seem to pull the trigger on a rotary knowing if I have to replace the rubber boot on a tailcap, I either need to mail it back to HDS and/or possibly void the warranty attempting to DIY the job (I wouldn't say I'm incompetent with tinkering, but I'm definitely risk averse to voiding the warranty on an expensive thing).

That got me thinking about how much I see the end user serviceability as a fair portion of what I consider long-term reliability of a light, and I'm curious to hear other peoples' views on that. I sometimes see other folks mention such concerns, but then plenty of people seem content with the idea of warranty work for their light. Maybe part of this is all just the overall cost of the HDS, and any additional costs make the bullet that much harder to bite?

For most of my Chinese lights, I buy them without ever thinking about this, because they're cheap enough, and I assume the warranty is mostly fake (which is why I tend to buy the more expensive Chinese lights like Weltool or Armytek from retailers with great customer service). Thinking about spending a couple of hundred bucks on a light kind of changed the equation in my head.

Of course, maybe that means I should just get a clicky HDS, haha. I'm half hoping the next generation of rotary will offer a single AA and a better boot replacement solution, but that might be just wishful thinking.

But anyway, I'm bored and I don't like summer heat, so what kind of thoughts do people have?

 

[Jean-Luc Descarte]

Yes, yes I do. It's one reason why I'm such a stan for Convoy. I'm not a modder but the ability to pull the lights apart down to their individual components with at most a soldering iron has come in very useful. Especially if you want to update to newer better drivers, such as when I updated an S2 and a C8 from the horrible old 3x5 firmware to the new much better Biscotti, all the way back in '17.

Being unable to open the head of an S30 I got on clearance to service its reflector was my start on being put off by Olight.

 

[Schokokeks]

The update-ability is very nice. It's one of the reasons I absolutely love Malkoff. I have a bunch of different drop-ins and bodies, and I can mix and match them, get new and improved performance, etc. For me, that's a HUGE plus in terms of long-term ownership.

I also think in terms of "Lifetime warranty" in the sense of whose lifetime we're talking about. So long as it's MY lifetime, that's perfect. I tend to notice I've become a bit more gun shy as I've aged, because I have several products where I've outlived the company, and now it's essentially a collectible decoration.

Again, this seems to matter less when it's a relatively low cost item, but for more expensive things, it stings. I'd spent, what at the time felt like a pretty penny (and today is a hilarious bargain), on a VEPR rifle made in Russia, and now with there being no real spare parts or service due to sanctions, my "buy once, cry once" rifle has turned into a bit more of a decoration (especially now with the ammo situation for it).
That experience really opened my eyes to other platforms which are also durable, but have a MUCH better end user service outlook (Yes, I mean ARs, hahaha).

And that leads me to see things less as "buy once, cry once," and more in terms of "I'm just buying a really neat, expensive novelty," and I think that's maybe what I'm less comfortable with, since my budget is not unlimited, because I'm 100% okay with that if it's a $30 flashlight, haha.

 

[vincent3685]

I really like to buy well made, durable "buy once, cry once" items, and flashlights are no exception. I really, really like Malkoff lights because they're extremely well made, very durable, AND are easy enough to service if something breaks. When I put in an order, it's maybe $10-15 to toss in a spare set of o-rings, lens, and/or switch.

I've been toying with the idea of picking up an HDS rotary, as the quality, durability, and UI are very, very appealing, too. But, I just can't seem to pull the trigger on a rotary knowing if I have to replace the rubber boot on a tailcap, I either need to mail it back to HDS and/or possibly void the warranty attempting to DIY the job (I wouldn't say I'm incompetent with tinkering, but I'm definitely risk averse to voiding the warranty on an expensive thing).

That got me thinking about how much I see the end user serviceability as a fair portion of what I consider long-term reliability of a light, and I'm curious to hear other peoples' views on that. I sometimes see other folks mention such concerns, but then plenty of people seem content with the idea of warranty work for their light. Maybe part of this is all just the overall cost of the HDS, and any additional costs make the bullet that much harder to bite?

For most of my Chinese lights, I buy them without ever thinking about this, because they're cheap enough, and I assume the warranty is mostly fake (which is why I tend to buy the more expensive Chinese lights like Weltool or Armytek from retailers with great customer service). Thinking about spending a couple of hundred bucks on a light kind of changed the equation in my head.

Of course, maybe that means I should just get a clicky HDS, haha. I'm half hoping the next generation of rotary will offer a single AA and a better boot replacement solution, but that might be just wishful thinking.

But anyway, I'm bored and I don't like summer heat, so what kind of thoughts do people have?

Just curious, have you ever actually had to use Armytek's customer service for warranty repairs?
They are a royal pita to deal with. They make it as difficult and expensive as possible to use their 10-year warranty, in hopes you will just forget about it. Had to ship my Predator Pro back to China at a cost of over $30. They did eventually replace it, but it took over a month.

 

[Schokokeks]

Just curious, have you ever actually had to use Armytek's customer service for warranty repairs?
They are a royal pita to deal with. They make it as difficult and expensive as possible to use their 10-year warranty, in hopes you will just forget about it. Had to ship my Predator Pro back to China at a cost of over $30. They did eventually replace it, but it took over a month.

Exactly.

That's why I (in the U.S.) only buy Armyetk from Killzone,who have been only FANTASTIC to deal with if I have had issues.

I meant, for Chinese lights, I assume the warranty is essentially fake (it's FAR too expensive to use), but on the $100+ Chinese lights, I'll buy them from a quality retailer who will handle the warranty on their behalf. Sure, I'm maybe paying $10-20 more than I can get it from other places, but $10 to have a real warranty on a $100 light seems like a good investment to me.

I did have an issue once with Sofirn, and while they took care of it, it was a very goofy process, and essentially resulted in my having the warranty stuff shipped via another order, as that was - by far - the most cost effective solution. Their lights are so cheap, I just started treating the warranty as not existing, and I do not buy anything over $50 from them because of that. Anything above $50, and if I have to use the warranty, I'm essentially paying for a brand new light in shipping costs.

I've unfortunately had Chinese levels of warranty support from Zebralight, so I also put them in the "this warranty exists, but will suck if I have to use it." Ironically, their pricing puts them in a matched middle ground of, "This is cheap enough to ALMOST not care, but costs enough to still kind of care." Kind of a decent for for a "based in US, made in China" brand, if you ask me.

U.S. companies like Malkoff and Surefire have gone above and beyond for me, so I don't mind their higher pricetags, since I can really bank on the warranty meaning something.

 

[aznsx]

My answer is 'yes', absolutely, and several other factors as well. Your posts cover most of them, I mostly concur (regarding the principles), and would only add to your list, not change it. I might just add that in my book, there's no such thing as a good deal on a bad product.

I believe my latest Streamlight sitting on the end table next to me is exemplary of and addresses most if not all of your points, priorities, issues, and concerns - plus a few more which I also prioritize. It may also be my favorite flashlight, for all those and other reasons. I've proven that I can 'have it all' if I shop wisely. I've been using their lights professionally for decades. Just sayin'...

For the record, at the moment there's a Malkoff, 2 Elzettas, and couple of EagTacs standing right next to it, and several other brands in the drawer, so I do 'get around'. They're also not just there for decoration, they're the ones I grab from whether I'm on my way out the door or to use inside.

Welcome to CPF, BTW!

 

[Monocrom]

Nope.
A modern-day LED flashlight selling for hundreds of dollars should function flawlessly for many years without me having to do much of anything besides replace or recharge the batteries.

 

[Schokokeks]

My answer is 'yes', absolutely, and several other factors as well. Your posts cover most of them, I mostly concur (regarding the principles), and would only add to your list, not change it. I might just add that in my book, there's no such thing as a good deal on a bad product.

I believe my latest Streamlight sitting on the end table next to me is exemplary of and addresses most if not all of your points, priorities, issues, and concerns - plus a few more which I also prioritize. It may also be my favorite flashlight, for all those and other reasons. I've proven that I can 'have it all' if I shop wisely. I've been using their lights professionally for decades. Just sayin'...

For the record, at the moment there's a Malkoff, 2 Elzettas, and couple of EagTacs standing right next to it, and several other brands in the drawer, so I do 'get around'. They're also not just there for decoration, they're the ones I grab from whether I'm on my way out the door or to use inside.

Welcome to CPF, BTW!

I've also generally had good luck with Streamlight, though the emitter choices leave a lot to be desired (I hate cold white, low CRI beams). Though, does Streamlight offer a good amount of aftermarket support parts? Like, if I crack a lens or need to replace a button, can I buy those and DIY it?

 

[Schokokeks]

Nope.
A modern-day LED flashlight selling for hundreds of dollars should function flawlessly for many years without me having to do much of anything besides replace or recharge the batteries.

I would concur, but I'm kind of interested in peoples' thoughts for, down the road, when you DO need to replace things. I see that as an inevitability.

Specifically, I love the idea of an HDS rotary, but the idea I have to ship it out to get the button replaced is kind of a very hard pill to swallow, since with my Malkoffs, I can just buy a boot and and o-ring for under $10, and fix it in a few minutes as they wear out. If the switch itself breaks, that's another sub-$10 fix.

While I hear HDS lights are fantastic and very durable, most of my hesitation is coming from my concern about the inevitable repair or maintenance of a durable product (Most things I own are at least old enough to drive, often old enough to drink, haha).


For me, there's maybe a threshhold of "disposable" vs. "durable," and a key to that is aftermarket parts support. I recently broke a major part on my vacuum, and for maybe 30% of the overall cost, I was able to get a new part to repair it. To me, that's a major aspect of long-term reliability. The best made, most durable thing that eventually becomes a shelf decoration or trash isn't really something I'd say is "reliable."

It reminds me of the discussions about reliability in regards to vehicles in WW2. Every country was, to their standard, making a reliable vehicle, but there was just a HUGE range of what that meant: How long could it go with regular maintenance? How long could it go with zero maintenance? Assuming regular parts availability/Assuming no parts availability. It's not that one is more true than another, but that it's context dependent (and, obviously, some things perform better in some contexts).

And, I guess for me, above a certain pricepoint (maybe $50-100), I start to see flashlights as less disposable, and start to expect to be able to run them for prolonged periods of time (wasn't that part of the advantage of using LEDs? They last decades).

Seemed like an interesting idea to hear other perspectives on.

 

[ghostguy6]

I've also generally had good luck with Streamlight, though the emitter choices leave a lot to be desired (I hate cold white, low CRI beams). Though, does Streamlight offer a good amount of aftermarket support parts? Like, if I crack a lens or need to replace a button, can I buy those and DIY it?

Streamlight has replaced switches and lens caps for me. You simply email them, they will ask you for photo's and they will send you replacement parts. I haven't cracked any of their glass lenses yet so I'm not sure if those are covered but I have seen aftermarket lenses for the stinger. I see they now have a warranty center in town but I have not checked them out yet.

Warranty service and the ability to replace parts is a huge factor for me when I buy a light. Many of my lights are pelican because we have a warranty center in the city. They aren't the best quality of light anymore but but its nice to get a replacement when they do break. Of course you might get a different style of light back.
Maglite used to be good around here because you could get the basic parts from any hardware store. That is not the case anymore. In fact most stores now dropped the Maglite line entirely. You can not order parts without paying a small fortune for shipping from the US. You might as well buy a new light because shipping is so expensive to return a Maglite to the US.

Surefire is in the same boat for us Canadians. No warranty on anything unless you pay to ship it. If the part has been discontinued your are SOL. The P60 format was great because you could get a ton of aftermarket parts and fix anything yourself. The 6P is probably still one of my most used lights to this day. I see the newer offerings from surefire slowly being phased out it Canada. You'll often see them in discount bins at the local gun shops.

Fenix warranty is useless unless you want to pay. I emailed them about a faulty switch once. They said they didn't have any in stock yet somehow offered to sell me one. How does that work? Anyways I lost all confidence in them.

Olight seems to be hit or miss. You cant repair anything on their lights these days. Their lights mostly use propriety cells so you cant use standard over the counter cells. What lights will take AA or AAA cells will work but with a deminished output. Quality control seems to have gone downhill and there are several people who complain about their customer service. There are several threads about that already.

 

[Schokokeks]

Maglite used to be good around here because you could get the basic parts from any hardware store. That is not the case anymore. In fact most stores now dropped the Maglite line entirely. You can not order parts without paying a small fortune for shipping from the US. You might as well buy a new light because shipping is so expensive to return a Maglite to the US.

Surefire is in the same boat for us Canadians. No warranty on anything unless you pay to ship it. If the part has been discontinued your are SOL. The P60 format was great because you could get a ton of aftermarket parts and fix anything yourself. The 6P is probably still one of my most used lights to this day. I see the newer offerings from surefire slowly being phased out it Canada. You'll often see them in discount bins at the local gun shops.

Fenix warranty is useless unless you want to pay. I emailed them about a faulty switch once. They said they didn't have any in stock yet somehow offered to sell me one. How does that work? Anyways I lost all confidence in them.

Olight seems to be hit or miss. You cant repair anything on their lights these days. Their lights mostly use propriety cells so you cant use standard over the counter cells. What lights will take AA or AAA cells will work but with a deminished output. Quality control seems to have gone downhill and there are several people who complain about their customer service. There are several threads about that already.

Maglite is unfortunately similar in shipping in the U.S. They run AGGRESSIVE sales at the holiday, and the shipping was a substantial part of my order total when I got some AA and AAA spectrum lights.

Your experience with Chinese brands is similar to mine; the cost of shipping to China to get the warranty is often as much or more than the light.

I personally don't like Olight at all, because when they first came out they Astroturfed gun spaces HARD. They were one of the first to do the scummy sponsorship/affiliate systems, where people were pushing junk to line their pockets (that all exploded in their faces when an Olight...exploded in someone's face, haha). People tell me that's not representative of their company today, but I don't trust them.

This is where Malkoff has really become my preferred "ultra reliable" light, because for $20, I can have a set of everything I'd need to replace that isn't the actual body or emitter, and it takes a minute or two - at worst.

 

[jacobd]

It's a HUGE factor for me. Almost every light I buy and use has a user replaceable pill, reflector/optic, lens and switch. Its one of the main reason I enjoy custom lights so much.

Not only does it help if they break, it also future-proofs them for when new tech comes out to swap into them.

 

[aznsx]

When I buy lights from companies with fewer staff than I have fingers on one hand, I can get almost anything I want, any time I want it - at a price (the product price).

Though, does Streamlight offer a good amount of aftermarket support parts? Like, if I crack a lens or need to replace a button, can I buy those and DIY it?

In the case of the aforementioned Streamlight, I don't think you'll find a manufacturer that is not in the above category who even comes close in terms of parts availability for U.S customers.

The supply chain includes many authorized distributors (which includes some local 'cop shops' for OTC), many authorized service centers, factory customer support, and even a store where some things may be ordered directly. I just pasted this URL in another post, so I'll paste it here too:

Streamlight Parts Store

I see that a new tailcap and switch assy. for my Protac 1L1AA is $5.31, for example. Easy.

BTW, these are not "aftermarket" parts - I'm referring to OE parts. Just clarifying, since many 'aftermarket' parts are also available for certain other brands (such as SF).

 

[scalpel_ninja]

While I hear HDS lights are fantastic and very durable, most of my hesitation is coming from my concern about the inevitable repair or maintenance of a durable product (Most things I own are at least old enough to drive, often old enough to drink, haha).
…

I see it with a slightly different angle once I figured out how to swap the boot myself. There's a lot of mystique and mystery around the rotary tail cap that scares many people away from disassembling it. I was (foolish?) enough to just to take the plunge and disassemble one and found out while it's not a procedure for the masses to perform, it really isn't that complicated. No specialized tools are required either. I used a pair of tweezers and a safety pin.

So I see it as taking a leap to learn a skill and become self-sufficient to deal with future problems. Kinda like learning how to fix a vintage luxury car. High price item with some risk of failure during the first few tries, but might be worth learning for the future.

So far I've successfully disassembled rotary tail more times than I can remember.

 

[Schokokeks]

I see it with a slightly different angle once I figured out how to swap the boot myself. There's a lot of mystique and mystery around the rotary tail cap that scares many people away from disassembling it. I was (foolish?) enough to just to take the plunge and disassemble one and found out while it's not a procedure for the masses to perform, it really isn't that complicated. No specialized tools are required either. I used a pair of tweezers and a safety pin.

So I see it as taking a leap to learn a skill and become self-sufficient to deal with future problems. Kinda like learning how to fix a vintage luxury car. High price item with some risk of failure during the first few tries, but might be worth learning for the future.

So far I've successfully disassembled rotary tail more times than I can remember.

That's interesting. I saw the tutorial, too. From what I can tell, it seems like if you were careless, you could very easily mess up those little contact flaps. I have a feeling those contacts are the reason it isn't recommended (as I'm sure people would constantly mangle those accidentally).

I'm fairly handy (I can do a head gasket, clutch, adjust valves on a car, and I've built crossovers and repaired computers and computer peripherals), so I think it'd be within my skill capability, but I'm mostly just not keen on insta-killing the warranty on a ~$400 item over a $5 piece of rubber, haha.

I might still get one to just try it out and have a nice collectible, and then just leave my Malkoffs for hard/regular use. It just feels so weird that a light would be made to be so tough and robust as an HDS rotary, and then kind of fall flat over the part MOST likely to need to be fixed (since it's a wear item). I think I maybe just need to mentally take it out of the "hard use, ultra-reliable" category in my head, and move it into the "neat UI novelty" category with Anduril lights, as I see most of those as interesting toys, but not really emergency tools.

 

[Schokokeks]

In the case of the aforementioned Streamlight, I don't think you'll find a manufacturer that is not in the above category who even comes close in terms of parts availability for U.S customers.

The supply chain includes many authorized distributors (which includes some local 'cop shops' for OTC), many authorized service centers, factory customer support, and even a store where some things may be ordered directly. I just pasted this URL in another post, so I'll paste it here too:

Streamlight Parts Store

I see that a new tailcap and switch assy. for my Protac 1L1AA is $5.31, for example. Easy.

BTW, these are not "aftermarket" parts - I'm referring to OE parts. Just clarifying, since many 'aftermarket' parts are also available for certain other brands (such as SF).

That's neat. I didn't realize Streamlight offered common parts. And, you're right, the prices are very fair.

If only they'd get more high CRI options, haha.

 

[scalpel_ninja]

That's interesting. I saw the tutorial, too. From what I can tell, it seems like if you were careless, you could very easily mess up those little contact flaps. I have a feeling those contacts are the reason it isn't recommended (as I'm sure people would constantly mangle those accidentally).

I'm fairly handy (I can do a head gasket, clutch, adjust valves on a car, and I've built crossovers and repaired computers and computer peripherals), so I think it'd be within my skill capability, but I'm mostly just not keen on insta-killing the warranty on a ~$400 item over a $5 piece of rubber, haha.

I might still get one to just try it out and have a nice collectible, and then just leave my Malkoffs for hard/regular use. It just feels so weird that a light would be made to be so tough and robust as an HDS rotary, and then kind of fall flat over the part MOST likely to need to be fixed (since it's a wear item). I think I maybe just need to mentally take it out of the "hard use, ultra-reliable" category in my head, and move it into the "neat UI novelty" category with Anduril lights, as I see most of those as interesting toys, but not really emergency tools.

If you're able to work on cars and computers, you'll have no problem with the Rotary. Those flaps/fingers aren't super fragile. Once the cap is removed, just set the light aside in a safe place. Also, there are redundancies built into every contact point because there are 2-3 fingers each.

 

[aznsx]

If only they'd get more high CRI options, haha.

Roger that. Unlike many manufacturers though (I won't name names), at least they're trying. They are testing the market. If their customers want more, they will build them. Here's perhaps one of the more interesting of the several current ones:

Stinger® Color-Rite® | Handheld Flashlight | Streamlight®

 

[340pd]

I buy Malkoff and never worry about service again.

 

[aznsx]

@340pd : BTW, that '340' isn't an engine displacement is it?