Do you factor in end user serviceability as part of reliability/durability?

[340pd]

@340pd : BTW, that '340' isn't an engine displacement is it?

S&W revolver.

 

[aznsx]

S&W revolver.

Thanx. The 340 was a great engine, but that looks like a very nice J-frame. I don't happen to have any wheelguns currently, but that appears to be a very nice carry gun indeed. Cheers!

 

[fuyume]

User serviceability is not something I think about, at all, mainly because I can only recall two lights that ever failed on me in the past 20+ years. The first was a first generation CMG Infinity Task Light that developed circuitry problems (the other one I own still works fine, company was later bought out by Gerber/Fiskars), and the second was a first generation Mini Mag-Lite LED 2xAA whose switch failed (only Mag-Lite I've ever had fail since the 1980s). In neither case did I care enough to see about any warranty service.

My Leatherman Serac S3 still works just fine. It's so old, I can't even remember exactly when I bought it. Early 2000s? My Inova X1 that I bought in 2014 or 2015 still works just fine, as well. The Serac S3 is retired as my EDC light, mainly because CR123As are too expensive for me, and the X1 (which replaced the Serac S3) is no longer my EDC light, but it still sits on my kitchen table for utility use around the house.

If I had had more light failures in my life, I might think more about serviceability, but it's not been enough of an issue for me to worry about.

 

[Monocrom]

My Leatherman Serac S3 still works just fine. It's so old, I can't even remember exactly when I bought it. Early 2000s? My Inova X1 that I bought in 2014 or 2015 still works just fine, as well. The Serac S3 is retired as my EDC light, mainly because CR123As are too expensive for me...

Good news! SureFire, and Watson both make 3.0v. rechargeable CR123 batteries. Can confirm that the Watsons work. Usually two such cells sold with a charger bundled together. Though you can buy the cells separately too. Definitely expect some reduced runtime with the Watsons. But no need for a beloved EDC light to be tucked away in a drawer.

 

[Schokokeks]

User serviceability is not something I think about, at all, mainly because I can only recall two lights that ever failed on me in the past 20+ years. The first was a first generation CMG Infinity Task Light that developed circuitry problems (the other one I own still works fine, company was later bought out by Gerber/Fiskars), and the second was a first generation Mini Mag-Lite LED 2xAA whose switch failed (only Mag-Lite I've ever had fail since the 1980s). In neither case did I care enough to see about any warranty service.

My Leatherman Serac S3 still works just fine. It's so old, I can't even remember exactly when I bought it. Early 2000s? My Inova X1 that I bought in 2014 or 2015 still works just fine, as well. The Serac S3 is retired as my EDC light, mainly because CR123As are too expensive for me, and the X1 (which replaced the Serac S3) is no longer my EDC light, but it still sits on my kitchen table for utility use around the house.

If I had had more light failures in my life, I might think more about serviceability, but it's not been enough of an issue for me to worry about.

I think, for me, the concern is user serviceability specifically with expensive things. This idea popped in my head when considering buying some more stuff from Malkoff, or trying out an HDS rotary - the latter which is $400+.

I haven't had terrible luck with lights, but I haven't had great luck. They're electronics, so I sort of assume a probability of dysfunction from anything from China, and I haven't been disappointed. The one that still stings is when I finally tried a Zebralight, and it didn't work when it arrived, so I ended up eating round trip shipping costs for the pleasure of discovering it was, in fact, just another Chinese light. Normally, it's not a huge deal if a cheap Chinese electronics toy bites the dust after a bit, but as things start to get over $50 (the Zebralight was about $100 shipped), it becomes more of an concern.

For more durable objects (like Malkoffs), I like the idea of ease of service, because well made things DO last a long time. As someone who owns some older guns, it's frustrating as a gun moves from "fun range toy" into "collectible" on account of a lack of parts availability. And, I'm not sure how happy I'd be to spend a few hundred dollars on a light, LOVE IT, but then have to stop using it cause of parts concerns.

I find it REALLY HARD to spend money outside of the Surefire "P60 module" ecosystem, because there's just so many options, and so much ease of service. And, that got me wondering if other people felt the same way.

 

[pnwoutdoors]

That got me thinking about how much I see the end user serviceability as a fair portion of what I consider long-term reliability of a light, and I'm curious to hear other peoples' views on that.

It's one of the factors for me, yes.

But with so much "tech" (computers) embedded in so many things, these days, fewer and few products are ending up user-servicable.

Like many, here, I too like the Malkoff drop-in modules. I can use them with a few different head/body/tail setups, and do the basic maintenance on the seals myself. I can move the module to another light, and I can drop in a different module if I sell that piece and "upgrade." Not a lot of change, but then these things don't require much at all. Like the ditty for the ol' Timex watches, they keep a lickin' and keep on tickin'.

Wish cars were like that. But most cars have so many features and whiz-bang gizmos, that people mostly have come to expect it. I seriously doubt many of the "top" makers are going to be successful at the simpler bare-bones offerings.

 

[Schokokeks]

It's one of the factors for me, yes.

But with so much "tech" (computers) embedded in so many things, these days, fewer and few products are ending up user-servicable.

Like many, here, I too like the Malkoff drop-in modules. I can use them with a few different head/body/tail setups, and do the basic maintenance on the seals myself. I can move the module to another light, and I can drop in a different module if I sell that piece and "upgrade." Not a lot of change, but then these things don't require much at all. Like the ditty for the ol' Timex watches, they keep a lickin' and keep on tickin'.

Wish cars were like that. But most cars have so many features and whiz-bang gizmos, that people mostly have come to expect it. I seriously doubt many of the "top" makers are going to be successful at the simpler bare-bones offerings.

It reminds me of something I heard years ago; "As complexity increases, reliability decreases."

I think that's why I find myself gravitating more and more to the single-mode, made in USA lights. They just work, and they keep working.

Interestingly, with the cars, that's part of the reason that repairs have become so costly; one thing breaks, and it's connected to 10 other systems, and a once simple repair requires a lot more work. I used to work on my own cars exclusively, but these days, relatively simple tasks can require things like removing the entire engine, having to reprogram computers, etc. I'm 100% with you. I'd love to have a simple car like my old CRX; manual steering, manual transmission, roll-down windows. I think fuel injection is about the only modern technology really worth the complexity (okay, maybe airbags). It's kind of sad that legal requirements have killed such simple cars (no more manual steering). A more modern, safer version of such a car would be fantastic. Something where you open the hood and there's just TONS of space would, at least, be welcome, haha.

I've always found Mies van der Rohe's "Less is More" to deeply resonate with me.

 

[aznsx]

I'd love to have a simple car like my old CRX; manual steering, manual transmission, roll-down windows.

100%. You mean like my '85 1/2' CRX-Si, which I only very recently sold? Near 40 years of pure bliss;-)
Ever try to get one of those wonderful hard copy service manuals of old for a newer Honda? You can't. They don't even sell them anymore. It now requires an expensive subscription to access the info on line:-( At least I still have a 30 year old Honda (with a fine, if seldom used service manual) to drive (I do have a newer one, but you couldn't pay me to work on it.)

 

[Schokokeks]

100%. You mean like my '85 1/2' CRX-Si, which I only very recently sold? Near 40 years of pure bliss;-)
Ever try to get one of those wonderful hard copy service manuals of old for a newer Honda? You can't. They don't even sell them anymore. It now requires an expensive subscription to access the info on line:-( At least I still have a 30 year old Honda (with a fine, if seldom used service manual) to drive (I do have a newer one, but you couldn't pay me to work on it.)

That's actually one of the worst parts. I still have the shop manual from my CRX. The best were the Bentley manuals for Volkswagens (they had all the technical steps, plus very helpful step-by-step instructions, so you didn't have to bounce around in chapters). I could do everything. Time consuming, but simple jobs like retorquing valves with feeler gauges was a nice afternoon project. Now? It's expensive, if I can even find a shop that will agree to it (they're usually so booked up, they turn down non-essential work)...and then, half the time, I swear I do better work myself...

50% of the reason I don't mess with cars anymore is exactly this issue. I can't review the repair before I start, so half the time, you realize you need something and/or can't find the technical data, and it's just aggravating...because you're half way through the repair, and work the next day.

Buying a month of access to the data doesn't seem so bad, but then it turns out it's really just the data for ONE vehicle, so it's just miserable for a home mechanic who is only doing things a few times a year (a month access a few times a year exceeds the cost of one of the old, paper manuals).

On the other hand, my CRX really was a death trap. It got killed in a t-bone accident, and it was extremely terrifying to imagine what would have happened had I been hit on the driver's side
Still, there's absolutely nothing around that drives like those old, lightweight cars :/

Don't even get me started on the visibility my old cars provided, versus new vehicles' immense blind spots.

 

[pnwoutdoors]

Interestingly, with the cars, that's part of the reason that repairs have become so costly; one thing breaks, and it's connected to 10 other systems, and a once simple repair requires a lot more work. I used to work on my own cars exclusively, but these days, relatively simple tasks can require things like removing the entire engine, having to reprogram computers, etc.

It's one of the reasons why I build my own home computers. Have for the past 25yrs. I can keep it simple, ensure it's robust where I need it, ensure a reliable combination of just the components/features I need and only those components/features, no "bloatware" software I never asked for and didn't want, etc. KISS, basically. And they run much better, more reliably.

I wish the average car were like that, these days. I do like fuel injection, but I wish the computer controlled aspect of essential performance were kept basic and dead nuts reliable. But with all the add-on doo-dads that most cars come with, it's the devil's own problem to even begin to count the areas of potential failure due to all the "stuff" cars have now that 50yrs ago very few did. As you point out, with all that crap comes complexity for diagnosing and fixing failures, lack of easy access to frequently-maintained components, complexity of repairs.

 

[Schokokeks]

As you point out, with all that crap comes complexity for diagnosing and fixing failures, lack of easy access to frequently-maintained components, complexity of repairs.

And this, right there, is why I keep coming back to the Surefire P60/Malkoff ecosystem. You can get ANYTHING you need, so lights can just run forever.

The more I've thought about it, the more essential of a component to reliability I've realized that is.

 

[Monocrom]

In terms of cars, if you want as simple as it gets in 2024....
Mitsubishi Mirage hatchback, lowest trim or the G4 variation (sedan) in the lowest trim. But get them while you can, the masses don't want simplistic reliability. And Mitsubishi is discontinuing the Mirage for 2025. End of an Era.

 

[TIFisher]

I really like to buy well made, durable "buy once, cry once" items, and flashlights are no exception. I really, really like Malkoff lights because they're extremely well made, very durable, AND are easy enough to service if something breaks. When I put in an order, it's maybe $10-15 to toss in a spare set of o-rings, lens, and/or switch.

I've been toying with the idea of picking up an HDS rotary, as the quality, durability, and UI are very, very appealing, too. But, I just can't seem to pull the trigger on a rotary knowing if I have to replace the rubber boot on a tailcap, I either need to mail it back to HDS and/or possibly void the warranty attempting to DIY the job (I wouldn't say I'm incompetent with tinkering, but I'm definitely risk averse to voiding the warranty on an expensive thing).

That got me thinking about how much I see the end user serviceability as a fair portion of what I consider long-term reliability of a light, and I'm curious to hear other peoples' views on that. I sometimes see other folks mention such concerns, but then plenty of people seem content with the idea of warranty work for their light. Maybe part of this is all just the overall cost of the HDS, and any additional costs make the bullet that much harder to bite?

For most of my Chinese lights, I buy them without ever thinking about this, because they're cheap enough, and I assume the warranty is mostly fake (which is why I tend to buy the more expensive Chinese lights like Weltool or Armytek from retailers with great customer service). Thinking about spending a couple of hundred bucks on a light kind of changed the equation in my head.

Of course, maybe that means I should just get a clicky HDS, haha. I'm half hoping the next generation of rotary will offer a single AA and a better boot replacement solution, but that might be just wishful thinking.

But anyway, I'm bored and I don't like summer heat, so what kind of thoughts do people have?

I have a top dollar cap on Chyna made flashlights of $28 US. The "warranty" on these lights is absolutely garbage. If and when a warranty claim is honored it's with the caveat you have to ship the light back at your expense. $28 shipping is the cheapest I've found via USPS. Screw that. That being said, I have been made whole by Wurkkos for defective units (twice) without having to return the defective unit. Sent them a video, and received a replacement in 10 days. Some Chyna companies are good about this. I have other purchases that were treated the same. YMMV.

 

[Schokokeks]

In terms of cars, if you want as simple as it gets in 2024....
Mitsubishi Mirage hatchback, lowest trim or the G4 variation (sedan) in the lowest trim. But get them while you can, the masses don't want simplistic reliability. And Mitsubishi is discontinuing the Mirage for 2025. End of an Era.

I can only do a manual, haha.

I've been kidding, but now it's become serious...that it's just an inevitability that I'm going to end up in a Miata (MX-5). I'm tall...and I hate convertibles...but...manual, haha.

I have a top dollar cap on Chyna made flashlights of $28 US. The "warranty" on these lights is absolutely garbage. If and when a warranty claim is honored it's with the caveat you have to ship the light back at your expense. $28 shipping is the cheapest I've found via USPS. Screw that. That being said, I have been made whole by Wurkkos for defective units (twice) without having to return the defective unit. Sent them a video, and received a replacement in 10 days. Some Chyna companies are good about this. I have other purchases that were treated the same. YMMV.

That is essentially how I operate.

Chinese lights don't really have a warranty for exactly your reason. THOUGH, I would say, for some of the pricier and okay Chinese ones (Skilhunt, Armytek, Weltool), I just buy them from Killzone Flashlights. They've always been SUPER great, and will pretty much bulk ship defectives, after swapping with you. They are fantastic.

My experience with Chinese brands is usually the shipping makes things goofy, but if you're willing to pay the cost, they DO take care of you. Meanwhile, the U.S. companies are just lightyears ahead in terms of service and warranty...and just, general customer service.

 

[bykfixer]

Lumens Factory still has some nice, well made options that keep the P60 (and D26) options available. They don't cost like SureFire prices these days as well. And for the purist, there are bulb modules available.

The new modular Seraph is on my radar screen.

 

[orbital]

+

Yep, P60 lights are about as serviceable as you'll get.

Make flashlights great again!

 

[Monocrom]

I can only do a manual, haha.

I've been kidding, but now it's become serious...that it's just an inevitability that I'm going to end up in a Miata (MX-5). I'm tall...and I hate convertibles...but...manual, haha.

Good news! You can get a manual instead of a CVT on both the Mirage hatch-back and the sedan. Good for tall drivers. (Since the CVT is a garbage JATCO one, the manual increases the reliability of the Mirage, substantially.)

 

[Schokokeks]

Lumens Factory still has some nice, well made options that keep the P60 (and D26) options available. They don't cost like SureFire prices these days as well. And for the purist, there are bulb modules available.

The new modular Seraph is on my radar screen.

I actually just picked up that Seraph today, with a momentary tailcap

 

[Schokokeks]

Good news! You can get a manual instead of a CVT on both the Mirage hatch-back and the sedan. Good for tall drivers. (Since the CVT is a garbage JATCO one, the manual increases the reliability of the Mirage, substantially.)

Oh, that's cool, then. I LOVE a good hatchback. Maybe when my current econo-beater dies, I'll have to keep an eye open for a mirage.

And yeah, CVTs are a really AMAZING idea, but just not very reliable. Manuals just run forever, with a new clutch every once in a long time.

 

[aznsx]

I actually just picked up that Seraph today, with a momentary tailcap

Hopefully we can look forward to some commentary on that, as / when appropriate(?). I'm sure it would be received with some interest in these parts