Go to AGR and check out Surefires new prices

[Terrapin Flyer]

bkral - plz don't take offense, but you bring about some logic we must be careful of. If SF will jack up consumer prices, they probably have done so across the board - including the "lucrative government contracts" you mention. You & I and the rest of the public pay for our lights purchased on those contracts via our tax $$. We know what these lights are worth because we use them, even if they are toys. We are some of the rare folk that know their real value. It is incumbent upon us to raise our voices as consumers and taxpayers (not a very small group mind you). I want our military and government to have the best and will gladly pay for it - IF the best is priced reasonably compared to what is available in the private sector. I WANT you to have your Hellfire as much as I want <insert mil or govt branch name here> to have them, but at a fair & reasonable price for all parties concerned, including SF.

 

[WaltH]

It appears I was too hasty slamming SF's Customer Service. When I arrived home tonight the lube was waiting for me. It took quite some time but they did pull through. The time is understandable with them gearing up for SS. But I still have a problem with the price increase.

 

[bkral]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> You & I and the rest of the public pay for our lights purchased on those contracts via our tax $$. We know what these lights are worth because we use them, even if they are toys. We are some of the rare folk that know their real value. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I submit that "their real value" is whatever Surefire can get for them. Again, this is all basic economics. We know that Surefire is (or at least recently was) operating near or even over their normal manufacturing capacity. Economics 101 tells you that if you put something on the market and can't keep it in stock, you need to either a) make a capital investment to increase production capacity or b) raise your prices until demand stabilises at a volume you are comfortable with. Yes, we fanatics would prefer option "a", but I think you would be hard pressed to make a business case to increase capacity all that much when the market for $100+++ flashights and mounts for assault rifles is so small.

As they are a special-purpose item and not meant to be general issue, the cost of even surefires is insignificant when compared to the overall defense budget. I'm sure the military spends more each year on plastic 2D angle-head flashlights than on surefires.

Remember - we live in a market economy, and surefire is in business to make money, not to provide a public service. I'm sure their decision on price increases was dictated by their best guess as to the most appropriate business strategy at the moment.

If anyone truly feels they are priced too high for the market, you need to plead your case to some venture capitalists, convince them to lend you a few million, hire some technical experts, financial types, HR co-ordinators, shop supervisors, and many highly skilled technical workers, develop a competitive product, convince the rest of us of it's merit, sell it for a "reasonable" price, AND make enough money at the end of each month that you can pay all of your debts.

I'll bet it's harder than you think...

-BCK

 

[bkral]

Oh, and one other thing. Recall that Surefire suspended shipments to civilian distributors for a period after 9/11 to meet government orders. If Surefire can't/won't increase capacity and if price increases to reduce demand are off the table, then another option might be to eliminate civilian sales altogether until the Gov'ment procurement "bubble" is over.

-BCK

 

[Terrapin Flyer]

My point was "real value" versus the inflated price the govt. may pay (i.e. - $3000 hammer syndrome). Your economics refresher is sound, but its apparent I touched a nerve, despite my best efforts to ask you not to take offense. I still hope you get your Hellfire, although I know I and many others will refuse to pay the new exhorbitant prices being asked by SF. Know any good venture capitalists?

Sure would like to hear Surefire's reason for price increases rather than speculation based on sound economic theory. As well, I'd be alright if they suspended shipments to civilians due to our current war status, but their actions and statements (2002 product announcements) reflect they have a fairly good grasp of the situation and evidently can supply our demand. Where do new product announcements fit into the economics lesson based on the lesson you've provided?

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I'll get E2e. That is it. They are just too expensive for an average firefighter. SF's website will have to be changed - advertised for LEOs an Firefighters, while we can't afford to buy them. I just talked to few officers at our station(they use 8Xs) - that is it for them. Extra $50 is a box of batteries,which equals to few hours of life-saving light.

5%-%7 raise would be OK, but: Wed I paid $17.50 for opaque cover for my M4, today it is $36. Correct me if I am wrong, but it is a 200% raise!!!

p.s. It would be nice, SUREFIRE, if you would offer discounts for Emergency Services, remember 9/11/01. (several other LEADING companies DO)

p.p.s. Needless to say I am pissed off...

 

[bkral]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> All the distributors will follow suit with the price changes. Surefire is forcing them all to raise the minimun price they can charge. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> They show us all these cool new gadgets and then rape us with the price increases <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to dwell on this, but if it is true that what is at work here is surefire enforcing minimum pricing, it is the distributor that will get the extra money, while surefire will, in theory, get less because of overall reduced demand.

This is not behavior consistent with an evil "rape and plunder" strategy, but more in line with my earlier comments.

FYI - You may be interested that most typical items in your local hardware store are priced at twice what the store paid for them. Big ticket items like power tools may be sold with much lower markups to get folks into this store instead of that one, but once you have the drill the bits, screws, etc. will make up for it. Clothing markups are typically about 4 times the store's cost, so when you see something 1/2 off the store is still making 100% profit. All of this is the price you pay for the convenience of having a large selection of merchandise close by in a convenient location.

-BCK

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

And why would I care? I still have to pay.

 

[bkral]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> but its apparent I touched a nerve, despite my best efforts to ask you not to take offense <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, not really. It just that I have nothing better to do on a Friday night and there's nothing I care to watch on television

Besides, as an engineer I rarely get to discuss this stuff.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Where do new product announcements fit into the economics lesson based on the lesson you've provided <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, they fit in rather well. A greater variety of product on same amount of equipment means reduced capacity to produce each item. If I have enough capacity to produce 1000 E series tailcaps per month, and I introduce 4-6-8 more lights that use them, I need to either buy more machines or reduce the demand for the old E1 and E2.

It looks to me like surefire's goals are to stay lean and high-end, and to get folks like us to shell out the cash they need to add more features.

I'm just glad to see the staggering amount of new product under development. They've practically doubled their product line, and the differences are significant and technology-focused. If we were talking about Mag-lite here, we would be discussing different colors of anodising rather than LEDs, HID, and power regulation.

Thus endeth the lesson...

-BCK

 

[Bernhard]

If they want to stay at high end, I wonder why they trying to capture quite general market segment by introducing E1 and E2 Executive series?
I will personally try to get my E1e and led replacement bezel for it and M2, and that's about it. It is also if they are not overpriced. I will also boycott to buy SF after then!!! Count me in for the boycott, when someone want to raise a petition to whom it may concern in SF

We all feel the pain...

 

[spud]

You should try living in the U.K for 6 mths.

 

[Terrapin Flyer]

Thank Gawd the lesson is over! Can we now get back to lamenting the drastic price increase of many SF products?!

 

[geepondy]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bkral:
Not to dwell on this, but if it is true that what is at work here is surefire enforcing minimum pricing, it is the distributor that will get the extra money, while surefire will, in theory, get less because of overall reduced demand.
-BCK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I emailed William at Texas Tactical and asked if he could provide a reason for the price increase and he was nice enough to promptly email me back. His response was that he was aware Surefire was going to change their prices, some up, some down, he thought it would be nominal and he was upset as well as the magnitude of the price change. I get the impression he's not making extra money out of this. I called Surefire and couldn't get past customer service who stated it was an "uppper management" decision and she could provide no explanation why. I then asked if she had received many complaints about the price increase and she said not many from consumers but some from distributors. So whatever the reason why, I think the extra money is going into Surefire's pockets, not the middleman.

I think we are all owed an official explanation from Surefire.

 

[Xenon]

Tim Flanagen from Northeast knives has got some good prices for SF, why not try him. Good service, great emails and he ships overseas.

 

[dano]

Well...What can you do? You can either buy the stuff, or not. Overall, the most realistic solution is to quit buying the product. I knew about this increase since November, but didn't want to spread somewhat unsubstantiated rumors, which are now fact.

I've said it many, many times...Surefire will price itself out of existence. What the company fails to grasp is that it DOES NOT make an affordable entry level light that can compare to Streamlight's Scorpion or Brinkmann's Legend LX at an equal pricepoint. Joe Schmoe will not buy a $60.00 6P. Not to mention that the 6P series of lights have been around a long time, and have paid for themselves many times over...

--dan

 

[Klaus]

Empath - what can I say - not talking about Surefire here but I have seen both way in real life - guess which one I prefer ---

On Surefire - on the SF Website I think the pricing even got lower or do I miss something here - the E2 HA went from 85 DOWN to 75 ? I would be interested to compare the old/new MSRP with the old/new discount pricing we are/had been used to from certain sites - what would we think if what happened is that the MSRP got lowered and the distributor pricing raised squeezing their margin not enabling them anymore to give us those 30% off prices we loved to get.

Maybe if we even could get aware of some of the old/new distribution pricing (maybe just on some models) to really make up our mind.

Klaus

 

[Empath]

I don't know much of anything of Surefire's business, nor the health of their operation. Prices though are by nature tied to "supply and demand". A manufacturer can increase demand by pricing within everyone's reach, or they can cut production by raising the prices. The level of sales is not a mystery, since there are dependable mathematical relationships and equations that can provide "what if" information to the sellers and manufacturers.

Sometimes we equate higher production with being a healthier facility. That isn't accurate. Sometimes we can produce ourselves right out of business. Higher production requires more qualified workers or longer hours, and more equipment and resources. You either invest your time and money into these resources or the quality of your product suffers, and along with it customer satisfaction and demand.

Even if a manufacturer is able to sufficiently provide all the people, hours, equipment and other resources to supply a demand for a product during a temporary heavy demand, the time eventually comes that sales will reach a slump. That slump will be the determining factor in survival or bankruptcy of the organization. If you've grown to the extent that your continued existence depends on constant heavy sales too extensively, you've lost.

The number of units produced and sold as a result of the pricing increase of Surefire products will not likely be a surprise to Surefire. The tools for determining such things is easily available. The unknown elements that may determine readjustment of the pricing would be competition.

Surefire's success is not dependent on your satisfaction. Your satisfaction has been noted and determined mathematically, and the choice has been to manipulate that in pricing, rather than quality and service. You can decide if you'd rather they chose the other route.

 

[Terrapin Flyer]

Received reply today from Ed Reynolds, VP at SF. Nothing informative, but my letter has been forwarded to SF's Pres. As suggested before, use their contact page and let your feelings be known to the VP, Sales & R&D. It can't hurt, and at least you'll be heard.

 

[lightlover]

I don't like the prices going up, but I'll continue to want and buy SureFires - maybe at a slower rate though.

Part of the price increase must be to pay for the 2002 range R+D costs, which will have been enormous, millions of dollars.

The purchase price of the regulated lights still represents a decent saving on running costs, since they manage to squeeze all of the juice out of a 123.
And the new rechargeable 123's are well worthwhile.
Basically, if a high initial cost is balanced by lower running costs, I appreciate that, and prefer it.

(I just recently got an 8AX, and it's a pleasure to watch it operating for free. Maintaining an M3 with the 225 Lu lamp is costly to the point where I can hardly keep my eyes on the beam ... )

Don't all shout at once - but I sometimes wonder if SureFire actually do make a great deal of profit, given the R+D, degree of Customer Support and the no-questions Guarantee.

lightlover