Help me Understand Why SureFire are so Expensive

[dmz]

This video on youtube might answer your question. The video gives you an idea of the amount of money SF spent in R&D and equipment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sw_uHNiywc

 

[gallagho]

I own both a Surefire L2 and a Fenix P3D Q5.

If I threw both off the top of a 2 storey building I know which one I would
bet on still to be working, simple as that.

If the L2 was broken, I could send it back and probably get it a replacement... Bonus!

Owen

 

[Fooboy]

i guarantee you that there are more mag-lites than surefires and fenixes in iraq combined. surefires arent issued, at least my best friend in the army and my brother who is a marine both didnt get one.

Just don't buy dogfood or childrens toys from China ...

 

[Bunk3r]

And also when you say bad tint quality really doesnt this depend on the LED itself and not the torch.

yes but its the company that make the light who decide which LED to put in!

 

[Jay R]

As an 'unbiased' opinion, being neither an American nor Chinese, I suggest that Surefires are expensive for three main reasons. They are made in the US with its higher production costs. They are of good quality though I wouldn't say exceptional as they are, after all, production line produced and not hand finished or anything. My M3 for example has a different shade colouring on the tailcap and a bit of swarf in the reflector that refuses to come out. And finally, because Americans are willing to pay a premium for a US made product in support of their own economy. Personally, I think that they are somewhat overpriced but if they can sell them for that price, why shouldn't they.
As for Surefire vs. Asian made, there isn't really a main contender in the Asian market yet. I would suspect that if an Asian manufacturer decided to start making high quality, military spec lights along the same lines as Surefire they would be able to knock them out, perhaps not at Fenix prices, but certainly less than Surefire ones. They then may give Surefire a run for their money if they sorted out their worldwide forces marketing. Remember that Surefires aren't widely known or used outside the US and a non-US purchaser won't have the sense of patriotism to US made products.

And before people start putting in posts saying that Surefires are known worldwide, no they aren't. You walk up to a policeman or soldier in India, France, Russia, or any of the other 200 odd countries that aren't America and 99 times out of 100 they won't know the brand.

 

[Mercaptan]

Most solders are not your operator that use all these high speed gear and the latest and the greatest, some are just simply cooks or mechanics, not all soldiers use Strider knives or Sebenzas, most of them use gerber or other cheap quality knives and they are not stabbing Al Qaeda terrorist with their knives but open MRE's and cutting Nylon cord Type III,

Hey, I like my Gerber 06 Automatic - I will admit, most of Gerber's stuff under 30 dollars is complete crap though.

And to the OP - Surefire just works, and if it doesn't you can get replacements to make it work. Forever.

 

[BabyDoc]

Not all SureFire's are all that expensive. As already mentioned, the 6p comes to mind. Unless you own a SureFire, I don't think you can appreciate its quality. You actually can feel the quality as well as see it! The workmanship, finish, everything about it says you are holding something special. These are lights that are meant to be used, even abused. They do hold up, or SureFire backs them up, forever! If you look at a SureFire catalog over the years, many lights have remained in their arsenal and have become classics. Many of their lights are upgradable, so they don't become obsolete. That's not true of most other manufactured lights. SureFire doesn't just change designs for the sake of change or just to keep up with the gimicky Chinese makers who try to give you everything in a single package. Each SureFire is designed with a special user in mind, many of whom are professional users. Each new design costs money.

Look at Fenix. They are great lights, but most of their designs are internally very similar. The T1 and T10 are basically the same; so are the L2D, P1D, the P2D, etc with very similar light engines; just different bodies and power supplies. SureFire has a greater variety of lights for different needs, including regulated incadescent/LED combinations like the A2 (a real classic), as well as big power house lights for specialized professional needs.

Still, if you can't appreciate the quality of a SureFire, or are just an occasional user, I wouldn't waste the money on SureFire. There are plenty of other lights out there, while not lifetime investments, will do the job very well, too.

 

[generic808]

I don't think anyone should judge Surefire by what they hear or read. Until you actually handle a SF for yourself, you will always think "it's so expensive". But when you actually touch it and use it for yourself, you'll understand the quality of their units. SF is top notch in all areas: reliablity, durability, lifetimee no-hassle warranty, and the best customer service I've ever dealt with. All these things factor into the final price, which some may think is too much, but I believe it's worth every single penny.

 

[scott.cr]

Research and development. Surefire develops the latest "cutting edge" lights, and then the Chinese copy them to make cheaper lights.

I work for a U.S. manufacturing company, and when we develop a new product, roughly 70% of what the customer pays for is taken by R&D. Our product will be in the field for maybe six months before they're copied overseas.

Some people will say Surefire isn't cutting edge, I can run out right now and build a light using more modern components. This may be true, but the home builder doesn't have to worry about 100,000 lights dying due to the same component having a latent defect, and 100,000 angry customers returning their lights all at once.

Cheap China lights, if 100,000 go bad all at once, they don't care because they can't back up the product. They'll just switch the label and keep selling the same defective product.

 

[xcel730]

Sorry guys. I didn't know with my starting this thread would create such hostility. Although I didn't intend to directly compare SureFires with Fenixes, I guess from re-reading from my initial posting I did do it. My apologies. The initial intention of this post was to gain a better understanding of the economics of SureFire prices. I know there are diehard SureFire fans out there as well as Fenixes and other brands, but that's like arguing about which sport team you think it's better ... it's fun to debate about until it leads to argument. Anyway, from what I gathered is ...

(1) USA made products are higher than foreign imports - Me coming from the knife collecting world certainly understand that

(2) Excellect quality and good customer service - whether it's perceived or actual quality, you'll have to determine yourself by handling one.

(3) Good marketing and brand management ... and product placement on TV/Movies.

(4) Mall ninjas shopping - I'm in the 37 percentile. I think all of us have some mall ninja in us ... or else we won't even be on this forum. I actually haven't reached the point where I would collect flashlights, I buy them for emergencies and actually using them when i'm traveling, at home or car. I know I dont' need a flashlight with lumens rating that could cause sunburns, but it's nice to know that if I wanted to, I could trick my neighbors by making them think it's morning and they're late for work. I still remember the days where Maglites were the best flashlights out there (or at least from my perspective).

I may have left a few here and there, but you get the point. I almost pulled the trigger last night and went to buy the E2L (with 3/60 lumens) for $129 from batteryjunction (the 8 free batteries really lured me in). I'm going to wait until I do more research. I veered off from SureFires in the past because of their low runtime of about 60 - 75 mimutes. But the new E2L seems pretty promising with 11 hours on 60 lumens. Somebody w

 

[gary3911]

Surefire's are so expensive because they have to pay for all the cost of the champagne and condoms they use at their pool parties while they sit back and read internet forums of people going over and over and over and over and over the same ground.

 

[skyline_man]

Think of it this way. A Surefire light is like a European sports car - Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini etc. And a good quality China made light is like a Corvette Z06 - it beats most Euro made cars at a fraction of the price.
It all comes down to brand name and marketing. It is a well known fact that companies that market their products well always do better than companies that don't. Human always wants the best, and if you happen to advertise your product as the best - even if it's not, people will eventually end up believing you.

Don't believe me? Watch Penn and Teller's "Bullshit " show, episode called "the Best" on Youtube and you'll know what i mean.

 

[xcel730]

Think of it this way. A Surefire light is like a European sports car - Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini etc. And a good quality China made light is like a Corvette Z06 - it beats most Euro made cars at a fraction of the price.
It all comes down to brand name and marketing. It is a well known fact that companies that market their products well always do better than companies that don't. Human always wants the best, and if you happen to advertise your product as the best - even if it's not, people will eventually end up believing you.

Don't believe me? Watch Penn and Teller's "Bullshit " show, episode called "the Best" on Youtube and you'll know what i mean.

I agree with you. There are many products out there that are classified as the best to most people because of superb marketing. A lot of people consider Rolex makes best watch, Sony makes the best electronics, Bose makes the best speakers, Benchmade makes the best knives, Burton makes the best snowboards, etc ... but are they really the best? They do make great products, they do make us feel good for owning it, but if we go down to the basics, are they really the best? Some may say "yes" based on the perceived qualities, and some say "no". I don't think there's such thing as "the best" ... with flashlight and everything else, it's always about some sort of trade off (i.e., more runtime and lumens but heavier flashlights).

 

[Monocrom]

And before people start putting in posts saying that Surefires are known worldwide, no they aren't. You walk up to a policeman or soldier in India, France, Russia, or any of the other 200 odd countries that aren't America and 99 times out of 100 they won't know the brand.

It's no secret that the Asian market makes up a huge percentage of Surefire's Private Purchase, customer base. Even more so than CPF. Surefire actually listens to feedback from that customer base.

As Al once posted.... You've got Americans buying cheap lights from China, and Asians buying up lights from Surefire.

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

The same reason as to why a Busse is more expensive than your average Wal*Mart chinese-made camping knife. I mean, they are all knives right?
:devil:

 

[Fooboy]

Think of it this way. A Surefire light is like a European sports car - Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini etc. And a good quality China made light is like a Corvette Z06 - it beats most Euro made cars at a fraction of the price.
It all comes down to brand name and marketing. It is a well known fact that companies that market their products well always do better than companies that don't. Human always wants the best, and if you happen to advertise your product as the best - even if it's not, people will eventually end up believing you.

Don't believe me? Watch Penn and Teller's "Bullshit " show, episode called "the Best" on Youtube and you'll know what i mean.

I bet the headlights on a porshe, ferarri or lamborghini would still work after hitting an animal, say a kangaroo ... better than a corvette.

 

[Monocrom]

I agree with you. There are many products out there that are classified as the best to most people because of superb marketing. A lot of people consider Rolex makes best watch, Sony makes the best electronics, Bose makes the best speakers, Benchmade makes the best knives, Burton makes the best snowboards, etc ... but are they really the best? They do make great products, they do make us feel good for owning it, but if we go down to the basics, are they really the best? Some may say "yes" based on the perceived qualities, and some say "no". I don't think there's such thing as "the best" ... with flashlight and everything else, it's always about some sort of trade off (i.e., more runtime and lumens but heavier flashlights).

Intelligent folks with experience can tell the difference between actual quality vs. claimed quality. As a knife collector, I know that Benchmade builds real quality into their knives. Quality that easily beats what many custom knifemakers are capable of. (Obviously I'm not including the works of Master Knifemakers who have dedicated their lives to their craft). If Benchmade quality isn't the best, it's damn close to it.

ColdSteel's hype on the other hand is just that.... hype. Carbon V is not some super steel that will outperform 99% of the stuff made by custom knifemakers. Didn't stop that rip-off artist Lynn Thompson from advertising it as such.

As far as Surefire goes, out of all the lights in my collection; my aluminum-bodied S.F. lights are going to far outlive me. Can't say the same for many of the other lights I own. Still, I can't stand much of Surefire's marketing practices.... especially when they start marketing some of their lights as self-defense tools for temporarily blinding an attacker with a burst of light. (Wonder if S.F. hired Lynn Thompson to do that aspect of their marketing). :green:

Surefire is like a Diva. When she's on stage, performing; it's the most beautiful thing in the world! When she's off the stage, you want to beat her to death because you can't stand her attitude.

Example of attitude: 2003, Surefire jacks up the prices of all of their more expensive models; without offering any improvements to those models. (You think a 10x Dominator usually used to retail for $450??)

Like I said, love their lights. (Oh, especially my M6). :twothumbs

Hate their marketing!

 

[easilyled]

Why is a Volkswagen more expensive than a Skoda?

The Skoda has the Volkswagen engine but doesn't have the
aesthetic appeal, the finishing touches and isn't as much fun to drive.

 

[Monocrom]

.... The Skoda has the Volkswagen engine but doesn't have the
aesthetic appeal, the finishing touches and isn't as much fun to drive.

I think you just answered your own question.

 

[xcel730]

Intelligent folks with experience can tell the difference between actual quality vs. claimed quality. As a knife collector, I know that Benchmade builds real quality into their knives. Quality that easily beats what many custom knifemakers are capable of. (Obviously I'm not including the works of Master Knifemakers who have dedicated their lives to their craft). If Benchmade quality isn't the best, it's damn close to it.

ColdSteel's hype on the other hand is just that.... hype. Carbon V is not some super steel that will outperform 99% of the stuff made by custom knifemakers. Didn't stop that rip-off artist Lynn Thompson from advertising it as such.

I love Benchmade knives, for me, they're the best knives for what I need them for. I have knives that cost twice or even five times the price of an average blue class Benchmade, and I honestly can't tell the difference between the quality. The only difference, to me at least, between Benchmade and a custom knife is just that ... the custom knife gives you the ability to pick and choose what you want. Anyway, a little digression here.

I'm very tempted to get a SF E2L right now. It has an output of 3 lms low, 60 lms high, and pretty good 11 hr runtime on high (100 on low). I saw this same flashlight in a magazine a few years ago, but they only had 60 min runtime back then. I'm going to search in this forum about this flashlight. Anyone own one and want to share your insight?