High-end Flashlight Makers Could Re-bin LEDs for Better Tint

[KeepingItLight]

One other manufacturer who tests the LEDs individually would be HDS. Even though the said LEDs are Nichia 219, if it doesn't pass the CRI test of 90+ it doesn't get labelled High CRI, and would only be sold off as neutral white.

Provided that it comes back at some point, I like to let the conversation go where it will. Glad to see that Pjandyho and WalkIntoTheLight have let it come back to the original topic.

Actually, I was pleased to hear about HDS. I knew about its potted electronics and its reputation for rugged durability. I did not know that it hand-picks the LEDs in its lights. This information raises my opinion of the brand. Cost is relevant, so I didn't mind hearing about that either (even though I already knew). This thread, however, is not about comparing HDS and Zebralight.

My purpose in starting the thread was to sow the seeds of an idea. We can all be winners in the tint lottery. Zebralight and HDS have demonstrated that.

It is not unreasonable to expect other makers to do the same. I'm not looking for this in budget flashlights, or even in models priced at the bottom of mid-level. At a certain point, however, flashlight makers can afford to address the issue of poor tint. Many of us want them to do so.

I started from a premise that most of us accept. The tint bins used my LED manufacturers FAIL when it comes to flashlights. Getting a flashlight with good tint has been a lottery. If you agree, then it is logical to ask whether anything can be done to fix that. Zebralight and HDS have proven that flashlight makers can do something about it.

Can something also be done by LED manufacturers?

Early in the thread I learned that LED makers test (and bin) each lot that they produce. Within a lot, testing of individual LEDs does not occur. That got me thinking about the variability within a lot. Do designers choose the "width" of a tint bin to conform to the variability that exists within a lot? Or is it chosen because application designers think it is what real-world use demands? If the latter, then it would be easy to change the width of a bin. Without any big change in the manufacturing process, LEDs could be binned in narrower bins.

The best outcome from this discussion would be for a consensus to develop among CPF members that the tint lottery is not something we have to live with. The problem is fixable. We know how.

 

[Harold_B]

Most if not all of the major LED manufacturers are binning at 1, 3, and 5 MacAdam Ellipses for CCT to the best of my knowledge as well as binning at 85C. It comes down to how much the device (flashlight) manufacturer is willing to pay for the LED. The tighter the binning the higher the cost along with the higher the output and lower voltage. Everybody wants tight specs, high efficacy, and low cost but one of those is going to give.

 

[snowlover91]

At some point price will come into consideration for this issue though. Both of the companies who are working to improve their lights and tint are still the more expensive lights. The question in regards to the tint issue is whether other companies such as Nitecore, Olight, Fenix, etc will either take a margin hit to increase tint quality or raise prices to do so? Furthermore most of these companies only produce cool white LED's which seem to have less tint issues vs the warmer tints.

Since these companies prefer to sell the cool white would they even consider cutting margins or increasing costs to sell a warmer LED tint that they don't even currently sell? Zebralight is known for producing warm tints for all their lights and HDS uses high CRI Nichia emitters. There aren't many other manufacturers who currently sell warmer tints and would benefit from trying to control tint issues.

 

[KeepingItLight]

Most if not all of the major LED manufacturers are binning at 1, 3, and 5 MacAdam Ellipses for CCT to the best of my knowledge as well as binning at 85C. It comes down to how much the device (flashlight) manufacturer is willing to pay for the LED. The tighter the binning the higher the cost along with the higher the output and lower voltage. Everybody wants tight specs, high efficacy, and low cost but one of those is going to give.

This is great news. Unless flashlight makers are already using the tightest binning available, it means that the problem is not a technical one.

At some point price will come into consideration for this issue though.

Of course. But just how much does an LED cost? If a flashlight sells for, say $75 USD, does the LED typically cost between $5 and $10? Less?

I would gladly pay an extra $5 to get good tint.

Most of these companies only produce cool white LED's which seem to have less tint issues vs the warmer tints.

Huh? I thought cool white was the problem! Lol!

There aren't many other manufacturers who currently sell warmer tints and would benefit from trying to control tint issues.

Zebralight, Armytek, Eagletac, ThruNite, and L3 Illumination, as well as Convoy and a whole bunch of other high-end and budget light makers all frequently offer warm and neutral options. As you suggest, however, many more offer only cool white.

 

[snowlover91]

I'm not sure what the cost would be for neutral emitters compared with cool white. Some companies charge extra for the option while others have the same price. The new Zebralights are the same price as the cool white and neutral so maybe the cost difference is already built into the price of the light enough that they don't have to increase prices?

Cool ok white is actually fine with me. Some don't like the tint but I have several which are great. I like neutral tints for the better CRI but I have several cool white lights I use regularly as well. Best tint I have so far was my SC5w, it wasn't a golden or warm color and wasn't cool white but a perfectly pure white tint. That's what I would like to see more of from lights and I'm hoping my upcoming SC5fd will demonstrate a similar tint.

 

[drmaxx]

I think the central question here is: Who needs a well defined tint and/or high CRI and is willing to pay for it? This defines the market size. And my empirical guess is: Not many. Most people that care about an expensive flashlight have many other much more important criteria, such as battery type, ruggedness, beam shape, brightness, form factor, UI, .... And it is difficult enough to find the perfect flashlight balancing all these factors. Tint is for most something low on the priority list. It is for me. This has also something to do with the fact that our eye/brain is extremely good in compensating for tint. After all the other factors, if I have to choose between a nice warm tint with less lumens compared with a neutral with more lumens, I will go for the high lumens. Not because I don't like warm tints, but because I want to buy light. :laughing:
The smaller the demand, the higher in the value chain you find somebody willing to satisfy your specific request. I would not expect that from the manufacturer of the LED, nor from all flashlight producer, but actually from the flashlight seller to listen to your specific wishes and open 5 or 10 boxes and send you the specific tint you are looking for.

 

[KeepingItLight]

I think the central question here is: Who needs a well defined tint and/or high CRI and is willing to pay for it? This defines the market size. And my empirical guess is: Not many.

I agree with pretty much everything your write. By a wide margin, cool white outsells the better tinted alternatives. The largest part of that, however, comes from a general public that does not—in most cases—know that neutral options exist. Among flashaholics, there is more balance. Is neutral/warm running 50/50 with cool white?

It is quite revealing to see the order numbers for a recent BLF custom flashlight. The BLF Manker A6, a tube light that uses the Cree XP-L emitter, is pushing towards 1000 subscriptions. For the first run of 1000 flashlights, 350 will be made in cool white, 500 in neutral, and the remaining 150 in warm white. Of the flashaholics who voted with their hard-earned cash, only 35% preferred cool white.

[Regarding better tinting,] I would not expect that from the manufacturer of the LED, nor from all flashlight producer, but actually from the flashlight seller to listen to your specific wishes and open 5 or 10 boxes and send you the specific tint you are looking for.

The only thing I take issue with in your post is the quote above. In the case of Zebralight, we now can turn to the flashlight producer to satisfy this need. Hopefully, other flashlight producers will follow Zebralight on this, especially those such as Eagletac that already specialize in offering neutral tint/high-CRI lights.

According to what Harold B. reported above, we can also turn to the LED producers for this. He states that most are already producing LED products with tighter binning than what is used in most flashlights. All we need is for a flashlight manufacturer to decide to use one those products.

You are also right that the retail vendor can help with this. I have read anecdotes from several posters at CPF saying they did exactly as you suggest.

As far as high output goes, that game is changing. The Nichia 219C will soon be available in a high-CRI model. It is rumored to output substantially more lumens than its predecessor, the 219B. LEDs from other manufacturers, such as the Cree MT-G2 and the Cree XM-L2 EasyWhite, already offer high output and neutral tint. More and more the the idea that you must choose between high output and good tint is proving to be a false dichotomy.

The real key is a willingness to change flashlights. Sure, a neutral-white Zebralight SC62w (930 lm.) will output 7% less lumens than the cool white SC62 (1000 lm.), but who says you have to buy the SC62w? For any output you desire, up to 3000 lumens and beyond, you can buy a neutral-white flashlight at a mid-level price that will meet your need. Specialized throwers are the exception. Those tend to be cool white.

 

[KeepingItLight]

Cool ok white is actually fine with me. Some don't like the tint but I have several which are great. I like neutral tints for the better CRI but I have several cool white lights I use regularly as well. Best tint I have so far was my SC5w, it wasn't a golden or warm color and wasn't cool white but a perfectly pure white tint. That's what I would like to see more of from lights and I'm hoping my upcoming SC5fd will demonstrate a similar tint.

The truth is, I'm not sure I would not like a few cool white flashlights myself.

I'm new to the flashlight game. From my training in photography, however, I have a good understanding of color and tint. I may be projecting some of that training—and a concomitant bias for neutral—onto flashlights.

On the other hand, I have studied quite a few comparisons of cool and neutral flashlights in YouTube videos and beam shots posted here at CPF. I understand that those comparisons are exaggerated. The differences that the camera records in those tests are much larger than what our brain would perceive. That's because our brains compensate for deficiencies in color by simply supplying what is missing! We know apples are red, so that is what we see, under both cool light and warm. In most comparisons captured by a camera, however, cool white comes off as worse than just bad. It is atrocious.

I hope you will report on the tint in your SC5Fd. That's the SC5 model that interests me as well.

 

[uofaengr]

Zebralight, Armytek, Eagletac, ThruNite, and L3 Illumination, as well as Convoy and a whole bunch of other high-end and budget light makers all frequently offer warm and neutral options. As you suggest, however, many more offer only cool white.

Eagletac impresses me with the number of options they provide for emitters including swappable drop-ins. If their UI was revamped, I'd probably be all over them. Zebralight really has hold of such an enthusiast niche in the market, they're much better served offering neutral and hi CRI options.

I agree with pretty much everything your write. By a wide margin, cool white outsells the better tinted alternatives. The largest part of that, however, comes from a general public that does not—in most cases—know that neutral options exist. Among flashaholics, there is more balance. Is neutral/warm running 50/50 with cool white?

It is quite revealing to see the order numbers for a recent BLF custom flashlight. The BLF Manker A6, a tube light that uses the Cree XP-L emitter, is pushing towards 1000 subscriptions. For the first run of 1000 flashlights, 350 will be made in cool white, 500 in neutral, and the remaining 150 in warm white. Of the flashaholics who voted with their hard-earned cash, only 35% preferred cool white.



The only thing I take issue with in your post is the quote above. In the case of Zebralight, we now can turn to the flashlight producer to satisfy this need. Hopefully, other flashlight producers will follow Zebralight on this, especially those such as Eagletac that already specialize in offering neutral tint/high-CRI lights.

According to what Harold B. reported above, we can also turn to the LED producers for this. He states that most are already producing LED products with tighter binning than what is used in most flashlights. All we need is for a flashlight manufacturer to decide to use one those products.

You are also right that the retail vendor can help with this. I have read anecdotes from several posters at CPF saying they did exactly as you suggest.

As far as high output goes, that game is changing. The Nichia 219C will soon be available in a high-CRI model. It is rumored to output substantially more lumens than its predecessor, the 219B. LEDs from other manufacturers, such as the Cree MT-G2 and the Cree XM-L2 EasyWhite, already offer high output and neutral tint. More and more the the idea that you must choose between high output and good tint is proving to be a false dichotomy.

The real key is a willingness to change flashlights. Sure, a neutral-white Zebralight SC62w (930 lm.) will output 7% less lumens than the cool white SC62 (1000 lm.), but who says you have to buy the SC62w? For any output you desire, up to 3000 lumens and beyond, you can buy a neutral-white flashlight at a mid-level price that will meet your need. Specialized throwers are the exception. Those tend to be cool white.

Rather than the BLF light being an indicator of how the majority of people feel about cool tints these days, I feel that there was a majority of neutral tints requested because those are members of a flashlight forum, the vast minority of flashlight owners. I feel that if you took 1000 random Joes off the street and polled them on if they want a brighter cool white, neutral white, or warm white, the results might be different and cool white might win.

At least for now, the flashlight industry is in a lumens war. People everyday purchase lights because of a lumens rating that is either false or only provides that output for 5 seconds. And what generally provides the most lumens? Cool white. The Joe tactical brands may never do it unless sales slip, but I feel it will take a major or semi-major brand to "reeducate" the public through marketing that their lights can help you actually "see better", maybe opening the eyes of the public to higher CRI, lesser output emitters. But the days of high output, high CRI emitters are getting closer by the day and we won't have to sacrifice one for the other and Joe tactical brand may find themselves scrambling to rethink their approach. I may just be rambling nonsense, but I find this a really interesting discussion.

 

[snowlover91]

The truth is, I'm not sure I would not like a few cool white flashlights myself.

I'm new to the flashlight game. From my training in photography, however, I have a good understanding of color and tint. I may be projecting some of that training—and a concomitant bias for neutral—onto flashlights.

On the other hand, I have studied quite a few comparisons of cool and neutral flashlights in YouTube videos and beam shots posted here at CPF. I understand that those comparisons are exaggerated. The differences that the camera records in those tests are much larger than what our brain would perceive. That's because our brains compensate for deficiencies in color by simply supplying what is missing! We know apples are red, so that is what we see, under both cool light and warm. In most comparisons captured by a camera, however, cool white comes off as worse than just bad. It is atrocious.

I hope you will report on the tint in your SC5Fd. That's the SC5 model that interests me as well.

I certainly will when I receive it, I started a new thread to discuss that light specifically since it marks a new shift in what Zebralight is trying to do with tint consistency. Looking forward to getting a shipping notification and testing it out. The cool white lights I have are actually pretty good, I have a Nitecore that's excellent probably 6k color temp and I love it. Smooth hot spot and it's not too blue or purple.

 

[bobbagum]

Cinema/videographers are using a lot of led panels now, CRI is quite critical to them too, so the demand for precision binned leds might not just be us

 

[WalkIntoTheLight]

Cinema/videographers are using a lot of led panels now, CRI is quite critical to them too, so the demand for precision binned leds might not just be us

Demand is certainly not going to be driven from the flashlight market. Interior lighting is going to drive demand for premium tints.

 

[Lumencrazy]

It were not best that we should all think alike; it is difference of opinion that makes horse-races.
1894 Mark Twain