Hydrogen Fuel Cells Hit the Road

[Darell]

A news-type show? Any info on this would be most welcome! What was said about it?

I've seen him drive his standard Hummers and *talk* about the H2 Hummer. Never seen anybody actually drive the thing.

 

[ikendu]

yuandrew wrote:

...It seems as if people won't really accept AFVs unless they are able to simply drive to the nearest station for refueling which seem to by why alternative fuels haven't really been accepted by the public.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ah, time to talk about "the other white meat"... er, other Alternate Fuel Vehicle.

Plain old diesel powered cars and trucks running on renewable biodiesel! Made right here in the good ole U. S. of A.!

Liquid fuel, in fact... the safest of all liquid fuels!
(Flash point 345 degrees F HIGHER then plain old gasoline)

Able to be dispensed right out of our existing infrastructure for filling stations. Safe enough to transport and store at home if you prefer to refuel in your own garage! Your fuel money can stay right in your own state (no possible funding for international terrorism or nuclear proliferation)! Also flex fuel capable so that if you are on vacation, you can simply fill up with plain old diesel fuel if necessary. Stock engines with no modifications what-so-ever.

So.... if you can't buy a BEV at your local dealer, try buying a new or used diesel and running it on biodiesel.

Myself, I wish I could buy one BEV for my daily commute and one diesel running biodiesel for my long distance travel.

 

[Brock]

Or better yet, just buy one vehicle, a hy-brid diesel. A 50 mile range on all electric and for longer trips, just start up the diesel engine on bio-D and your keep on rolling. One vehicle, your choice of fuel, imported oil for the local station, bio-diesel, or electricity.

I am telling you it would be one vehicle that would work for more people then just about anything else.

The next closest would be a gasser that you COULD also plug in if you wanted; I think that is likely the next step.

 

[ikendu]

Yup. I think the next evolution in rolling transport is likely the plug-in hybrid. At least I sure hope so. Even a 20 mile all-battery range saves 50% of the liquid fuel.

A 20 mile range would mean that the batteries would not be too expensive, lighter and would be recharged in a very short time. Then, when your 20 mile range is exhausted, your liquid fueled engine kicks in and you've got infinite "quick refuel" range. With electricity being equal to 56 cent/gal gasoline, I think Americans would adopt this new technology!

But! In the meantime... I drive my "AFV" every day! And... people can go out and get one from a dealer any day any time. No more waiting!

 

[Darell]

people can go out and get one from a dealer any day any time. No more waiting!

Unless you live in CA... Here your choices are used or waiting - buying new from the dealer is not an option.

Did you guys see the link I posted regarding Toyota finally looking interested in the PHEV?

http://www.darelldd.com/ev/plug-in_hybrid.htm

We still don't have alternate confirmation on this, but at least it isn't bad news!

 

[James S]

The car companies are taking a queue from NASA engineering. If it's not new technology they dont want anything to do with it. However, NASA seems to think this is a good thing, while I think the car companies KNOW that if they have to develop a whole new technology and manufacturing process from scratch for a fuel cell that it will take forever and let them continue to rake in the cash from their investment in ICE design and manufacturing. It costs mega bucks for those guys to retool.

You could use conventional battery technology right now with a nice big LiIon pack to get everything you want from an electric car. You could build it today with current tech and by oversizing the battery by adding another 30 or 40 pounds to it you could keep the cycles small enough so that it really would last a long time. And if you put a fraction of the amount of money they are wasting on fuel cells into fixing the problems with the electrodes in LiIon batts you could fix that and get it into manufacturing in no time at all. it's the difference between starting from scratch in a totally new territory where you have no idea how to ramp up the manufacturing of something that you've got pretty much working in the lab and just making a few tweaks to an already industrialized manufacturing process. I wonder which one would be easier, less expensive and be done first?

And dont tell me that they would be too expensive. The first one would be very expensive, but so will any new fuel car. Ask how much those fuel cells are worth that people are driving around in these test vehicles. But build a new plant designed to make a billion of them and then tell me how much they will cost.

i say fooey to your mythical hydrogen!

 

[HarryN]

It seems like the first step in getting Fuel cells off the ground would be applications where the demands are not quite so capital cost sensitive. A great place would be a replacement for R/V generators, where quiet power generation would overcome many cost and technical obstacles. Also, the total power demand is modest, as only a few KW of capacity are needed.

I have to admit that while I am a big advocate of electic vehicles, I am not so hot on H2 fuel cells in car, regardless of the potential performance. I have yet to understand how the H2 production / distribution system is going to be a benefit in any possible way from an energy balance perspective, and I have enough experience with H2 at an industrial level to believe it is not a viable consumer-safe replacement for gasoline.

If you have any doubts about this, try asking people at Cree and Lumileds what their biggest day to day risk is - H2 or the other challenging materials they deal with.

From a technical perspective, the idea of charging up a car in the middle of the night from off peak electricity makes total sense to me.

From a personal perspective, the idea that it is better to pay the local power company (explitive deleted) for my transportation cost rather than a "choice" of (explitive deleted) gas companies has yet to settle in. I probably do not have the budget to purchase a "premium priced" speciality car, and the requisite solar panels to "save money" that way.

 

[Darell]

Great points, Harry.

From a personal perspective, the idea that it is better to pay the local power company (explitive deleted) for my transportation cost rather than a "choice" of (explitive deleted) gas companies has yet to settle in.

The one thing to keep a grasp on, is that gasoline comes from oil. Period. All your gasoline will always come from the oil companies. Electricity, however, can come from many sources. You at least DO have a choice. To buy gasoline you MUST pay the oil companies, with much of that money leaving our country. To buy electricity, you don't NEED to pay the electric company (even though most of that money at least stays in the country!).

I probably do not have the budget to purchase a "premium priced" speciality car, and the requisite solar panels to "save money" that way.

Qould be nice if the same government that is helping us with the purchase of gasoline would instead (or at least *also*) help us buy alternative means to produce our power.

 

[Cornkid]

Finally! Europe has been beating the US in this century-old technology concerning the use of Hydrogen fuel cells in automoblies and electronic devices. (we are an oil-run nations [literally ])

I believe that the average U.S. citizen is ignorant to the efficiency and safety of Hydrogen. Alongside the oil-mongols that dominate this nation, the U.S. is dragging her feet.

The next step is developing stronger and more efficient materials to be used in the Proton Exchange Membrane and developing a more effective system of storing hydrogen.

All in all its about time that we withdrew our heads from our rears and ventured outside of our little box.

-tom

 

[Darell]

Finally! Europe has been beating the US in this century-old technology concerning the use of Hydrogen fuel cells in automoblies and electronic devices. (we are an oil-run nations [literally ])

Need some help here, Tom. What's your point, exactly? Europeans have been using FCs in electronic devices for centuries? Their society isn't run on oil?

I believe that the average U.S. citizen is ignorant to the efficiency...of Hydrogen

Efficiency? How does a fabricated energy carrier such as H2, have efficiency? No energy carrier has efficiency. How the carier is used, and how much energy goes into creating it affect the efficiency, certainly. And H2 doesn't do too well in that area as compared to our traditional energy carriers, nor to our newer alternative ones. Just what is it that we're ignorant of?

and developing a more effective system of storing hydrogen.

Fortunately, we already have that. The most effective and efficient way we have of making, storing and using Hydrogen is.... wait for it... batteries!

All in all its about time that we withdrew our heads from our rears and ventured outside of our little box.

I agree - and when we do remove our heads, let's not immediately shove them up somebody else's rear.

 

[Brock]

Thanks Darell, I needed to that...

I swear some people will never get it.

Tom you do realize a H2 car is a battery EV with a H2 fuel cell generator on board to charge the batteries to run the electric motor correct?

So here's your choice. Take electricity to create H2 at about 50% loss, then take that H2 and use it in a fuel cell at about a 50% loss and another 20% battery loss. Or just take that same electricity and put it in batteries at a 20% loss and drive away. Your choice, 20% loss or over 75% loss, same electricity from the start.

And since a fuel cell vehicle is nothing but a BEV with a fuel cell generator on board, why add the cost on both the fuel cell and production facilities and distribution of H2 in the first place.

 

[Brock]

Yes Darell I read that article about PHEV, that was what I was alluding to when I said I thought that would be the next actual step in this progression. Once people have the option, not "being forced" to plug in I think they will find it isn't as big of a problem as they though. And since it wouldn't be necessary if you didn't plug in, no big deal.

I just hope they use a charger that runs off a standard 15A at 120vac plug. I know a larger charger would be nice for quick charge, but I honestly believe if people see a different plug many won't use it. Maybe have a slow charge 15A 120vac normal plug and a second 20 min 50A 240vac plug

 

[idleprocess]

I'm not sure if Cornkid is just trolling or not, but I'll be generous and assume not.

Finally! Europe has been beating the US in this century-old technology concerning the use of Hydrogen fuel cells in automoblies and electronic devices. (we are an oil-run nations [literally ])

Let the Europeans achieve a greater than factor-10 cost reduction chasing the dream of a clean fuel for combustion. No, really - let them. I don't think they'll get there anytime soon. The challenges facing fuel cells aren't just technical or engineering - they're materials-science problems.

Funny thing about fuel cells is that electronics manufacturers have been promising that they'll replace batteries someday. Where are the fuel-cell laptops & MP3 players that are always just another year or two away?

Fuel cells and the "hydrogen economy" are looking like this generation's flying cars, I'm afraid. Great hype about their marvelous potential, but no substantial advances toward their becoming mainstream.

I believe that the average U.S. citizen is ignorant to the efficiency and safety of Hydrogen. Alongside the oil-mongols that dominate this nation, the U.S. is dragging her feet.

I wonder if you've been reading this thread. Hydrogen in fuel cells are disgustingly inefficient in the marco view. You're going to expend > 4 units of energy to make the hydrogen for every 1 unit you extract from it at the fuel cell. In chemistry, anything that requires a net input of energy is "endothermic." Gasoline is similarly "endothermic," but at least the energy to make it was expended by the sun eons ago.

The next step is developing stronger and more efficient materials to be used in the Proton Exchange Membrane and developing a more effective system of storing hydrogen.

Good luck. PEMs have a fairly limited operating life and demand an ultra-pure supply of hydrogen and oxygen.

All in all its about time that we withdrew our heads from our rears and ventured outside of our little box.

I agree! Let's stop obsessing over alternative fuels and expand our perspective to already-viable forms of energy-storage for electric cars (don't forget that a FCV is nothing but a mostrously complex electric car).

We know that battery electric cars work. Just ask all the former EV1 owners and current RAV4EV/RangerEV owners.

The automakers complain that their few production EVs cost ~$100,000/each to make. This includes the famously expensive battery pack and engineering burden.

Concept fuel cell vehicles cost over $1,000,000/each to make - and it's known that the intrinsic cost of the fuel cell stack is >$500,000 of that cost. We don't know if engineering burden is included in this figure or not.

Now, given just a bit of R&D and economy of scale, which vehicle do you think can be made affordable for consumers? Let' say that we need the vehicle to cost $25,000 initially (a premium car), and we'll assume that over time we can get it down to about half that (economy car).

A factor 4 reduction is all that's needed to reduce the cost of a battery-electric vehicle to a reasonable production cost ($25,000) - easily achievable with economy of scale (make the vehicles on a high-volume line, buy enough large batteries to stimulate similar reductions in their cost). Batteries could be made cheaper - we already know how to make large-scale NiMH, and large-scale lithium-ion cells have also been made lately. Produce those in volume and soon the terrifyingly high price of a vehicle-sized battery pack becomes very reasonable.

A factor 40 reduction is required to get the cost of a FCV down to $25,000. You're going to be banging your head against hard, unforgiving walls for years trying to achieve that goal, with no guarantee of success because there are no apparent engineering solutions to reducing the cost of manufacturing fuel cell stacks. You're going to be at the mercy of unforseen scientific breakthroughs.

Note the difference between a battery-electric car and a fuel-cell electric car ... we're only dependent on advances in manufaxturing and engineering solutions to make the BEV viable; the FCV requires unforseen scientific breakthroughs - which are not guaranteed.

Fuel cells are an impractical solution desperately looking for a problem. "Vehicle power source" is not a problem they solve particularly well.

 

[Cornkid]

: calm down Cornkid... calm down:

Lets us quickly analyze your attempt to defend against my prior statement.
1) Efficiency is the physics term refering to the amount of useful energy produced from what is put in. ( Output/ energy of system) because of the lack of heat energy and sound energy.
2) Yes, I am aware of the fact that batteries, through redox reaction, oxidize and reduce to produce electricty.. I was refering to the pressurization of hydrogen (in liquid form) in a reservoir or the use of alcohol to suspend hydrogen ions.
3) Next, the technology was developed by a chemist by the name of Rose in the late 1890s. Although we have had the information, we have until recently been ignorant of its potential.
4) Another point, which furthers my belief that the average american is truely ignorant of hydrogen's potential: Yes we need power for electrolysis, but it can be renewable.
My point. 90% of the world's hydrogen is produced in Iceland by means of geothermal generators. Solar Cells, hydroelectric dams.. etc. We must not burn coal/oil to produce hydrogen. I just believe that America is not able to cope with the idea of buying hydrogen from Iceland...

Sorry if this seemed to be rude in any way.. I just believe that Hydrogen Fuel cells are the way to go..

-tom

 

[idleprocess]

Yes Darell I read that article about PHEV, that was what I was alluding to when I said I thought that would be the next actual step in this progression. Once people have the option, not "being forced" to plug in I think they will find it isn't as big of a problem as they though. And since it wouldn't be necessary if you didn't plug in, no big deal.

I just hope they use a charger that runs off a standard 15A at 120vac plug. I know a larger charger would be nice for quick charge, but I honestly believe if people see a different plug many won't use it. Maybe have a slow charge 15A 120vac normal plug and a second 20 min 50A 240vac plug

Hopefully they'll take a queue from AC Propulsion's "reductive" charging and not only build the charger into the vehicle, but design it to handle all the common AC power sources from 110VAC to >240VAC, with the ability to set the charge rate at the vehicle so you can slow-charge from a 110V/15A circuit or quick-charge from a 240V/40A circuit.

 

[idleprocess]

My point. 90% of the world's hydrogen is produced in Iceland by means of geothermal generators. Solar Cells, hydroelectric dams.. etc. We must not burn coal/oil to produce hydrogen. I just believe that America is not able to cope with the idea of buying hydrogen from Iceland...

Sorry if this seemed to be rude in any way.. I just believe that Hydrogen Fuel cells are the way to go..

Icleand is unique since it has nearly infinite electricity in the form of geothermal power. Since you can't really synthesize gasoline (or any other convenient fuel) from electrolysis, hydrogen is a way to capture some of that power that's just "going to waste."

Iceland still has to deal with the staggering costs of fuel cells. Much of their strategy is to replace the gas engines in the country's fishing fleet with fuel cell-powered motors. If an EV-sized fuel cell stack costs >$500,000, then a ship-sized stack with 10x the capacity will cost 10x as much - a substantially larger percentage of the overal cost of a fishing vessel than a conventional marine engine, I believe.

I'll admit it's possible that there could be some scientific breakthrough tomorrow that could lead to eventual commercialization of the fuel cell at a price that the average car-buyer can afford... but that's no strategy for developing an energy source. It's just as likely that said breakthrough will never happen, or will occur 100 years from now.

 

[evan9162]

I'll admit it's possible that there could be some scientific breakthrough tomorrow that could lead to eventual commercialization of the fuel cell at a price that the average car-buyer can afford...

The same could be said for battery technology. And we're much closer with batteries. Plus, the overall system is MUCH simpler than a FC vehicle.

 

[idleprocess]

Bateries need only some engineering improvements and economy of scale to become affordable on an EV scale.

 

[Darell]

I just hope they use a charger that runs off a standard 15A at 120vac plug. I know a larger charger would be nice for quick charge, but I honestly believe if people see a different plug many won't use it. Maybe have a slow charge 15A 120vac normal plug and a second 20 min 50A 240vac plug

Fear not on this, Brock! The first PHEVs will most definitely be 120V charge only. The plan would be to need ZERO infrastructure or permitting changes. Overnight charging would be the norm, and for distance runs you burn the liquid fuel. Once people are used to it and see the potential, we can put in more battery and faster charging. But baby steps on this will be awesome. You can plug in anywhere. It'll be slow, but that capacity isn't all that great anyway, so it'll be fine at 120V - at least at first.

It is illegal to literally "plug in" an EV charger (as I do) at this time. It is against the electrical code. But that's only if high voltage is used. No problem at 120V.

 

[Darell]

: calm down Cornkid... calm down:

Sorry, don't mean to be ganging up on you like this... just need to get some things straight, Tom.

1) Efficiency is the physics term refering to the amount of useful energy produced from what is put in.

Right. FCV loses. FCVs are less efficient than a modern gas car (hybrids for example), and WAY less efficient than a battery car.

3) Next, the technology was developed by a chemist by the name of Rose in the late 1890s. Although we have had the information, we have until recently been ignorant of its potential.

Not true. At the turn of LAST century (about 20 years after the discovery you mention) the fledgling auto industry began trying to make a go of it. I have several quotes to that effect. So, after about 90 years of trying... here we are with basically not much. We haven't been ignorant of the potential. We just couldn't figure out how to make a case for its material difficulties, inefficiency and expense. And we still can't.

4) Yes we need power for electrolysis, but it can be renewable.
My point. 90% of the world's hydrogen is produced in Iceland by means of geothermal generators. Solar Cells, hydroelectric dams.. etc. We must not burn coal/oil to produce hydrogen. I just believe that America is not able to cope with the idea of buying hydrogen from Iceland...

Groovy. So we manage to extract all this green power (at great expense mind you)... so it is OK to waste 3/4 of it on a FCV when we could use it so much more efficiently in a Battery car? Why is wasting it so appealing? I don't care where the power comes from - there's no need to flush it down the drain. This thought of FCVs using 100% green power is just crazy. If we have all this green power, let's use it to power battery cars. But no - the proponents of FCVs typically like to make a big deal out of how those nasty BEVS only use coal for their power source. WTF?

I guess I have to wonder what happened to your excitement of "efficiency." Show me where FCVs are or even will be efficient when we compare them to batteries. We aren't even talking about pollution here - just reasonable use of the energy we have available. Green power still doesn't grow on trees, so to speak.

Sorry if this seemed to be rude in any way..

Not at ALL! Just a bit misguided. We'll get you straightened out here pretty soon.