Hydrogen Fuel Cells Hit the Road

[ikendu]

ikendu wrote:

"...try buying a new or used diesel and running it on biodiesel."

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Darell wrote:

"...Unless you live in CA... Here your choices are or waiting - buying new from the dealer is not an option."

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Geez, Darell, I threw in "used" for those of you in CA.

Yup. I saw the post on the Toyota Plug-in Hybrid. I sure hope they do it.

BTW... VW is now confidently stating they can meet the 2007 tighter diesel stds. so the day might be coming pretty soon when Californians can once again buy a nice, new, diesel car.

 

[ledlurker]

FCV still remind me of the magic materail "unobtanium" or "technotanium" that was used by coworkers at NASA. The fuel cells on the shuttle are marvels of engineering costing several million dollars. The only draw back I see on them besides the obvious energy loss are there shorter life than a battery pack and the maintainence hogs that they are. They are so unforgiving on the maintainence requirement that taking them 200 hours beyond their operating life can make them go into crossover failure ( a fancy way of saying short circuiting and catching on fire.

Just let me buy a PHEV today. I do not care if the hybrid part is gasoline/ethanol, biodiesel or HFC. Just make it modular so I can have equipment swapped if by some very slim chance a magical break though is made on fuel cells. They all require batteries and there are no offerings on the market yet. Just get me a vehicle that can carry 5 people, groceries and the family dog and have a range of at least 40 miles (but 20 will do) before I switch on the engine and I will be happy.

It seems that people keep forgeting that it takes 55 to 80 Kwh of electricity (whether it be stripping hydrogen from fossil fuels or water electrolysis) just to make a kilogram of hydrogen that will propel a 1 million dollar Ford focus with a FC 60 miles. Where as a BEV ford Focus can go anywhere from 155 miles to 240 miles with old nickel metal hydride chemistry that was introduced in the 90's. Hell, lead acid technolgy still beat FC for efficiency.

 

[cheapo]

A news-type show? Any info on this would be most welcome! What was said about it?

I've seen him drive his standard Hummers and *talk* about the H2 Hummer. Never seen anybody actually drive the thing.

He was talking to a television interviewer while he was in the HUMMER, and said that it is hydrogen powered.

-David

 

[idleprocess]

I've seen the "hydrogen Hummer." It uses the standard Hummer H2 internal combustion engine that's been converted to burn hydrogen - likely using techniques similar to natural gas conversions that have been around for over a decade. Like the LNG/CNG cars I've seen, it has a giant gas storage tank in the rear of the vehicle ... which is inconveniently large.

I don't know if it retained the gasoline systems or not. It's not easy to find a hydrogen filling station, you know... Maybe it can also run on more readily-available natural gas.

At least the conversion makes some sense - it involves somewhat minor engine modifications and doesn't center around pie-in-the-sky technology. It could be an affordable option someday. I'm not sure how well it runs or if it's a truly viable fuel for an internal combustion engine.

 

[James S]

It is illegal to literally "plug in" an EV charger (as I do) at this time. It is against the electrical code. But that's only if high voltage is used. No problem at 120V.

Do you mean that you had to alter the device in order to make it plug in as it was designed to be direct wired to a high wattage circuit?

Altering a device, or using it as it was not intended (and this can be interpreted very strictly) voids it's UL rating and means that it's no longer a production device approved for a specific purpose. And it would be illegal for you to sell that, or to provide the modding service to someone else. But I dont believe it's actually illegal to do it yourself for your own use. But it most likely will cause a problem with your insurance company if you burn the house down...

Something tells me however, that you're using the proper wiring and plug for the amps involved and so I'm not worried about you.

 

[Darell]

Geez, Darell, I threw in "used" for those of you in CA.

Ah, you cheated - my quote was in response to a post that didn't mention having to buy one used!

And what I wrote was missing a few words to add to the confusion! OK, we have no argument here! We both know what we both know.

 

[Darell]

It seems that people keep forgeting that it takes 55 to 80 Kwh of electricity (whether it be stripping hydrogen from fossil fuels or water electrolysis) just to make a kilogram of hydrogen that will propel a 1 million dollar Ford focus with a FC 60 miles. Where as a BEV ford Focus can go anywhere from 155 miles to 240 miles with old nickel metal hydride chemistry that was introduced in the 90's.

Something else that most folks don't realize is that current FCVs have insane "standby" power losses. They actuall "idle" quite poorly. The ones I've seen are consuming 6kW just sitting still. FC stacks have all these pumps and valves and plumbing and they wheeze and whirr even when nothing is going on. For comparison, my Rav consumes about 300W when still - just enough to keep the computers awake - about the same as two PCs running in the office. Ineeded, we're still ignorant about FCV's efficiency - but not in the way Tom meant, I'm afraid.

And a comment on your above consumption numbers....80KWh of electricity will power my Rav (of modified barn-door aerodynamics design) over 250 miles highway miles, or over 350 city miles.

 

[Darell]

Do you mean that you had to alter the device in order to make it plug in as it was designed to be direct wired to a high wattage circuit?

Correct. To get the installation permit for the charger, which was required before the BEV could be purchased - the thing had to be "permanently" installed.

But I dont believe it's actually illegal to do it yourself for your own use.

The code states that an electric vehicle charger for anything over 120V nominal needs to be hard-wired and permanently installed. I can get the code reference easily enough but don't have it at my fingertips. All this is somewhat silly, of course. RV's can use 220V-50A with a plug every day.

Something tells me however, that you're using the proper wiring and plug for the amps involved and so I'm not worried about you.

I overengineer everything. I'm using a 50A cord and plug for a 28A device that is plugged into wiring that is rated up to 70A. When on the road, I do use under-sized power cable for short term. But then I'm only burning somebody's lawn if it smokes.

 

[Darell]

I've seen the "hydrogen Hummer." It uses the standard Hummer H2 internal combustion engine that's been converted to burn hydrogen - likely using techniques similar to natural gas conversions that have been around for over a decade. Like the LNG/CNG cars I've seen, it has a giant gas storage tank in the rear of the vehicle ... which is inconveniently large.

It is still H2 ICE? That was to be the first generation, and was to be FC LONG before now. I think they actually have a FC version, but like I said - it doesn't actually drive anywhere on its own power. Yes, H2 ICE would be child's play. All automakers say they could have one on the road within one model year if they wanted to do it. The reason they don't want to do it? No fuel! Duh. So instead they push for a much more expensive option that will be delayed so long that we may be tempted to waste billions of dollars on infrastructure... so that one day we could fuel an H2 vehicle conveniently. Make sense?

I don't know if it retained the gasoline systems or not. It's not easy to find a hydrogen filling station, you know... Maybe it can also run on more readily-available natural gas.

No, way to hard to make it switch. The thing was/is H2 ICE only. Can be as efficient as CNG if you don't count the energy to first make the H2.

At least the conversion makes some sense - it involves somewhat minor engine modifications and doesn't center around pie-in-the-sky technology. It could be an affordable option someday. I'm not sure how well it runs or if it's a truly viable fuel for an internal combustion engine.

It is relatively VERY simple technology. Just like CNG as you say. No rocket science going on here! And it is definitely affordable, and it runs just fine. The problem is making and distributing the fuel. Why the hell bother? If we're gonna make the needed electricity out of NG, it would be Way WAY more efficient to just burn the CNG in the vehicle to begin with. And lookee here - we already have CNG infrastructure!

Oooh. My head hurts again.

 

[idleprocess]

It is still H2 ICE? That was to be the first generation, and was to be FC LONG before now. I think they actually have a FC version, but like I said - it doesn't actually drive anywhere on its own power. Yes, H2 ICE would be child's play.

I saw it at the last auto show I went to. The plackards around it went out of their way to assure people that it was the same beefy engine they're used to in their gas-powered Hummer H2. No need to cloud the symbol of American virility (a giant V8 engine) with some geeky techno-wizardry!

Did I mention that the H2 tank was huge? It sat squarely in the middle of the rear cargo area and must have been 24" in diameter and >48" long. Evidently that was only one of 3 H2 tanks - Photo here

It's hard to imagine a vehicle-ready FC stack capable of powering the H2... the thing is over 3 tons with shoddy aerodynamics (possibly weighing up to 4 tons)!

GM crows about the H2H

No, way to hard to make it switch. The thing was/is H2 ICE only. Can be as efficient as CNG if you don't count the energy to first make the H2.

Tough to imagine that unless there are some fundamental incompatibilities between H2 & NG handling systems for ICEs... all of the NG fleet vehicles I was seeing a decade ago could run on gasoline or NG with the flip of a switch. What's the trouble toggling between H2 & NG? Once you've moved from a vaporized liuid fuel to gaseous fuel, what's the rub between 2 different gasses?

 

[Darell]

Did I mention that the H2 tank was huge? It sat squarely in the middle of the rear cargo area and must have been 24" in diameter and >48" long. Evidently that was only one of 3 H2 tanks - Photo here

Yeah, that one tank shown would be good for about ten miles in a vehicle like the Hummer. Somebody on one of my lists calculated that at the current cost of H2 (about $6 per gge) it would cost over $900 to drive an H2 Hummer the length of CA.

Tough to imagine that unless there are some fundamental incompatibilities between H2 & NG handling systems for ICEs... all of the NG fleet vehicles I was seeing a decade ago could run on gasoline or NG with the flip of a switch. What's the trouble toggling between H2 & NG? Once you've moved from a vaporized liuid fuel to gaseous fuel, what's the rub between 2 different gasses?

Sorry - the biggest trouble I've heard is the *storage* of the two fuels. (we'll call them both fuel for convenience, 'K?) You aren't likely going to store H2 and CNG in the same tanks for various reasons. I'm not booked up on this stuff though, so you should have stopped listening to me a paragraph back. We've had some dual-fuel vehicles, but they didn't work so well on either fuel IIRC.

 

[PlayboyJoeShmoe]

The TexDot (Department of Transportation) guys that bring their Power Washer to the shop have a dual fuel truck. They start it in the morning on gas, then change over to CNG. At least that's what they told us a few months ago. I know not if cooler (cold) weather will even allow CNG use?

I myself will use BioDiesel when I can drive up to a pump and get it. To make my own is over my head!

 

[Darell]

The TexDot (Department of Transportation) guys that bring their Power Washer to the shop have a dual fuel truck. They start it in the morning on gas, then change over to CNG. At least that's what they told us a few months ago. I know not if cooler (cold) weather will even allow CNG use?

Hmm. I wonder why they start it and then switch? There are relatively large numbers of dedicated CNG vehicles out there that function in any kind of weather... with no other option for fuel. Cold would have no more effect on CNG than it would on any other form of ICE. In fact, in the cold you can shove more energy into the same size tank and get more range.

I myself will use BioDiesel when I can drive up to a pump and get it.

Awesome! How often is that? What blend?

 

[Darell]

I'm not going to be the one to dive into the pros and cons of nuclear energy - but this presentation from David Barber of the Idaho National Laboratory is fascinating and telling.

http://tinyurl.com/7zv6b

Check out the cost differential between making electricity vs making H2, and the cost differential in making batteries vs making FCs.

 

[PlayboyJoeShmoe]

I'm sorry Darell, I mean when the day comes that I can drive up to a pump and get it, THEN I will use BioDiesel. I could get 100% Bio tomorrow, if I drove 40+ miles to get it. But we get all our fuel from a local station. And I don't think I could talk the secretary into letting me go there... the BioDiesel needs to come closer!

 

[Darell]

I'm sorry Darell, I mean when the day comes that I can drive up to a pump and get it, THEN I will use BioDiesel.

Ah. Damn. Well, a guy can dream. Was just watching a show on Biodiesel - there's a couple of guys up in Washington with what is likely the world's only portable, fully licensed biodiesel station. Since the market is so new, they decided to do what you're asking - take the fuel to the user, instead of having the user go to the fuel. It is a full pumping station with some big plastic tanks all in the back of a customized (biodiesel-burning) pickup.

 

[Darell]

Altering a device, or using it as it was not intended (and this can be interpreted very strictly) voids it's UL rating and means that it's no longer a production device approved for a specific purpose. And it would be illegal for you to sell that, or to provide the modding service to someone else. But I dont believe it's actually illegal to do it yourself for your own use.

James - here's the section code I wast mentioning.

"625.13 Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment.
Electric vehicle supply equipment rated at 125 volts, single phase, 15 or 20 amperes or part of a system identified and listed as suitable for the purpose and meeting the requirements of 625.18, 625.19, and 625.29 shall be permitted to be cord-and-plug connected. All other electric vehicle supply equipment shall be permanently connected and fastened in place. This equipment shall have no exposed live parts. "

And here's some of the illegal stuff that I've done: http://www.darelldd.com/ev/portable_tal.htm
http://www.darelldd.com/ev/portable_gen2+.htm

Where's Cy? Didn't scare him off, did we?

 

[cy]

Nahnnn...

been looking at links for hybrid desiel VS plain ole desiel.

it's always griped me that small desiels are available in all sorts of models and configs in Europe VS here in US. only a few select small desiel models are available.

Otherwise smallest truck with desiel available is Dodge 3/4 ton with cummins desiel. there was an Volkswagon desiel mini truck made in early 80's and Isuzu made a small desiel truck that was perfect size, but had tranny problems.

Since I need a truck, probably will end up getting a 3/4 ton Dodge truck w/cummins turbo desiel

do think best option currently available is hybrids with addition batteries added. giving one an option to plug-in for 30 or so miles range before needing ICE.

and now for car mfg to offer a desiel option instead of gas motor in a hybrid package is raising effeciency yet again.

 

[Darell]

The solution is simple, though all but impossible in the US of A. Increase the price of gas to about $6/gallon and see what becomes available.

 

[NewBie]

There have been fuel cell cars "on the road" for quite some time. I've driven them. At this moment, I know of at least 20 of them in operation within five miles of my current location. This may be the first one in "private" hands, as it were.

Honda actually paid to build a H2 refueling station near the lease-holders home. After the million$ spent, the local fire department will not allow it to open due to safety concerns. Oops.

Ten years ago Honda (and all othe major car makers) put 1000's of EVs on the road in private hands. The car makers got overwhelmingly positive feedback. What did the car companies do with that info? Crush their EV programs. Neat! Of course FCVs are much more attractive since they'll require far more maintenance, will be more expensive to build and fuel, and of course will require "branded" fuel and far more energy than any EV, and even more energy than our current crop of gasoline "hybrids."

OK, show of hands. Who knew what I was going to say before I submitted my post? :wave:

I dunno Darell.

EV is far from perfect still.

Cells have a limited number of charge/discharge cycles, and Li-Ion have a well kept secret, that even when not in use, they will only last 2-3 years, typically.

In a EV vehicle, you are seriously cycling the cells.

So, what happens when you need to replace the cells, in 2 or three years?

It is the major cost of the vehicle.

Also, California has a bad electricity shortage already. Imagine millions of cars pulling power off the grid. Plus you have to burn stuff to make the electricity (much of which california already imports, alot of it comes from burning coal), harm the environment and little fishies with hydroelectric, or somehow get the democrats to let you build Nuke plants (environmentalists again).

You live in an extremely sunny place, compared to most the folks in the US, so they don't really have the same options of covering their house with solar cells, and also don't want to lower their quality of life by having to line dry clothes, skip the use of the TV during prime power periods, and enjoy their A/C too much. So, that isn't a very practical option either.

Then you have the A/C, which many enjoy, or the heater which is needed in other areas of the US, and it takes alot of power to generate that heat. And folks like to listen to the radio and use their headlights. All of which severly impact the distance the car can operate, especially when taken together.

Solve the practical aspects, generating the electricity, charging points, battery life/cost, get the EV vehicle range out to at least 350 miles between charges, while running the heater/headlights/wipers/and radio at the same time, and add all the additional power lines needed to carry that incredible level of electricity that would be needed.

Then EV might be practical at that point.

And I skipped alot of additional issues with EV...