Is a 1,000+ out-the-front lumen POCKETABLE LED light currently available?

[yalskey]

Quick and simple questions for ya'll... but first some background.

Right now I have a Dereelight CL1H v4 with a customized MC-E drop-in driven at 2.8V. I've seen the 2.4V drop-in tested in a sphere at around 550 lumens OTF. So I can only guess that my 2.8V drop-in would be roughly 600 or so lumens OTF. I'm powering all this with 2xRCR123A's from AW. I carry this clipped to my left pants pocket as my "tactical" (man, that term is really getting overused isn't it?) EDC.

Is there anything on the market that is about the same size as what I have (2x123 or 1x18650) that can output even higher lumens? I wouldn't really consider upgrading what I have now until there's something out there that is at least 50% brighter; say 1,000 lumens or more out-the-front.

I feel like I'm fairly well equipped now, but I periodically like to check in and see if I'm still pushing the top end of technology.

And for all you pragmatists out there, no I really don't need anything brighter, but come on, it's brighter, so I want it!

 

[TooManyGizmos]

Only if you have pants with really big pockets - with a heat resistant lining.

More power means lotsa heat & short runtime



(Ray D1 w/R2 ?) (20,000 lux)

 

[wmflyfisher]

Quick and simple questions for ya'll... but first some background.

Right now I have a Dereelight CL1H v4 with a customized MC-E drop-in driven at 2.8V. I've seen the 2.4V drop-in tested in a sphere at around 550 lumens OTF. So I can only guess that my 2.8V drop-in would be roughly 600 or so lumens OTF. I'm powering all this with 2xRCR123A's from AW. I carry this clipped to my left pants pocket as my "tactical" (man, that term is really getting overused isn't it?) EDC.

Is there anything on the market that is about the same size as what I have (2x123 or 1x18650) that can output even higher lumens? I wouldn't really consider upgrading what I have now until there's something out there that is at least 50% brighter; say 1,000 lumens or more out-the-front.

I feel like I'm fairly well equipped now, but I periodically like to check in and see if I'm still pushing the top end of technology.

And for all you pragmatists out there, no I really don't need anything brighter, but come on, it's brighter, so I want it!

Sort of off topic but how do you like your current setup and could you use an 18650 with it?? What about run times??

 

[yalskey]

Sort of off topic but how do you like your current setup and could you use an 18650 with it?? What about run times??

I'm really happy with my current setup. Alan from Dereelight really did a stellar job customizing the driver on the MC-E drop-in for me. Not only did he make it drive the led harder at 2.8V (vs. 2.4V standard), he limited it to only 2-modes, max and strobe. This is the ideal tactical EDC in my opinion. The MC-E is medium floody (to illuminate multiple subjects and/or to be a bit forgiving if you don't have pin-point aim)... but it's not too floody to where the lux is not blinding enough.

Unless it's an IMR 18650, I wouldn't recommend a single 18650 as it draws too much current... or so I'm told by FlashCrazy (an awesome Dereelight seller here in the USA).

Run times are terrible on max. Maybe 20 minutes. You got to pay the fee somewhere and runtime is it. I didn't care about that because in all other regards the light is perfect. I mean 600 lumens OTF in my pocket comfortably with max and strobe only. That's awesome. Plus, I don't use it for general purpose EDC. I only use it rarely for "self-protection" situations. I have a Preon 2 and a RRT-0 for my general EDC's. As it stands, I only have to recharge my Dereelight like every 4 or 5 weeks, just to top it off at max.

Hope that helped.

 

[ginaz]

i had thought that the 18650 was better for high drain than 2 rcr123's (not counting IMR's in either variety)?

 

[yalskey]

i had thought that the 18650 was better for high drain than 2 rcr123's (not counting IMR's in either variety)?

I'm not an electrical expert by any means, but from what I've read / gathered 4C (I think that's the number if I'm remembering correctly) is too much to draw off of any single cell (unless of course it's an IMR cell).

I was told by FlashCrazy that 2xRCR123A's is ok, but a single 18650 can't handle the discharge rate being only a single cell. I guess when you have 2 cells, each gets half the "C"... so 2C for cell #1 and 2C for cell #2... verses all 4C off one 18650 cell.

Maybe someone with a better understanding on all this can weight in and correct me if I'm off base.

Anywho... I guess the answer to my original post is basically "no, not yet". Which means I have pretty much the optimal setup currently... which is fine, I'm happy. :twothumbs

 

[ma_sha1]

To get 500-600 OTF is easy, to get >1000 OTF is much harder to do.
Have you looked up the lights on Big C's OTF list?
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=260659

I think there are 3 led lights listed with >1000 OTF, two of them were made by me. One is SSR-50 driven to 5-6Amp at LED by 2x AW IMR 25,500, Mag 1.5C.
The other is Triple XPG driven to about 1.5Amp each at LED. Mag 1C.
For the Triple XPG, I underestimated the heat sinking & heat transfer & resulted rapid lumen drop down to 5-600 OTF level in just 30 seconds. After I got the light back, I had to improve the heat sinking/heat transfer.

For such small host you mentioned, it is possible to use triple XPG to get over 1000 OTF for a few seconds, as soon as the heat catch up with you, the lumens will drop fast. Obviously one need to use IMR batteries with 18650 DD or 2x123 IMR with regulation. But I would expect very rapid lumen drop to the point I am not sure you'll be able to take advantage of the turn on >1000 OTF lumens for any real use.

So, for real practical use, I think it'll need next gen. more efficient leds that produce less heat.
The heat will be the rate limiting factor in managing >1000 OTF for the small lights you mentioned. The batteries & Leds are no the bottle necks here.

I don't think mass flashlight mfg. would make over 1000 OTF for this size at the moment, as pushing the limit may cause them lots of money if problem appear after

 

[yalskey]

Wow... thanks a lot for the nice post. So I guess I'm happy right now with what I have. I'll have to wait a year or two at least in order to double my OTF lumens at this size.

I do see what you are saying about the heat being the bottleneck. My 600 OTF light I have now gets really hot after about 1 minute... and I'm sure the lumens take a nose dive after about 10-15 seconds.

So I have my tactical EDC, and a couple of general use EDC's. For me, that means the only other interesting flashlight topics are:
1) Big, non-pocketable lumen and throw monsters (just for bragging rights), and
2) Utilitarian / work task (floody) speciality lights (read: MC10 angle lights, headlamps, lanterns, zerbra lights, etc.)

 

[TriChrome]

Also keep in mind that with such a small reflector your current 600 lumen OTF light must be very floody. Increasing the lumens to 1000, when the light is spread out over such a large area, won't be nearly as impressive as you think it will be.

 

[yalskey]

Also keep in mind that with such a small reflector your current 600 lumen OTF light must be very floody. Increasing the lumens to 1000, when the light is spread out over such a large area, won't be nearly as impressive as you think it will be.

I wouldn't say it's VERY floody. I'd go with moderately floody. Zebra lights are VERY floody. Dereelight DBS lights or JetBeam M1X's are VERY throwy. I'd say that it's a tad less floody than a Malkoff M60F.

No, I don't expect for my socks to be blown off at 1,000 lumens... that's just the threshold I've established in my mind for when I should upgrade to the next level.

p.s. Hey, 500th post... woo hoo! Go me!

 

[supasizefries]

Moddoo's Triple XP-G P60 drop-in comes to mind.

 

[ma_sha1]

No, I don't expect for my socks to be blown off at 1,000 lumens...

I agree, when I made my first >1000 OTF led light, I was like, WTF? That's it? It looks obviously brighter but doesn't look 2x brighter than 500 OTF light. I know for human eyes to see a light as 2X bright, it needs 4x the Lumen increase, but still, it means that I'll need >2000 OTF to get my socks blown off & I've still yet to achieve that

Also, floody light looks to human eyes a lot brighter than thrower does,
the Triple XPG (more floody with LXP optics) looked a lot brighter than the the SSR-50 thrower, but they had about the same tun-on OTF.

 

[bigchelis]

Moddoo's Triple XP-G P60 drop-in comes to mind.

In theory and expectation we are all hoping for 1000 OTF lumens with this P60 Tripple XP-G R5 monster, but I am still waiting for my test sample from Moddoo. Soon we will know for sure.

The Tripple XR-E with 2.8A driver did 560 turn-on, soooo

 

[recDNA]

I'm really happy with my current setup. Alan from Dereelight really did a stellar job customizing the driver on the MC-E drop-in for me. Not only did he make it drive the led harder at 2.8V (vs. 2.4V standard), he limited it to only 2-modes, max and strobe. This is the ideal tactical EDC in my opinion. The MC-E is medium floody (to illuminate multiple subjects and/or to be a bit forgiving if you don't have pin-point aim)... but it's not too floody to where the lux is not blinding enough.

Unless it's an IMR 18650, I wouldn't recommend a single 18650 as it draws too much current... or so I'm told by FlashCrazy (an awesome Dereelight seller here in the USA).

Run times are terrible on max. Maybe 20 minutes. You got to pay the fee somewhere and runtime is it. I didn't care about that because in all other regards the light is perfect. I mean 600 lumens OTF in my pocket comfortably with max and strobe only. That's awesome. Plus, I don't use it for general purpose EDC. I only use it rarely for "self-protection" situations. I have a Preon 2 and a RRT-0 for my general EDC's. As it stands, I only have to recharge my Dereelight like every 4 or 5 weeks, just to top it off at max.

Hope that helped.

Sounds great to me! How can I get one...preferably single mode - no strobe?

 

[yalskey]

Sounds great to me! How can I get one...preferably single mode - no strobe?

Well, contact Alan at Dereelight and see what he can do for you.

www.Dereelight.com

 

[joshconsulting]

What did you pay for the MC-E from Alan?

Also, there seems to be some confusion over amperage draw and battery types. Perhaps some wires got crossed in your communication with FlashCrazy. Here's the correct info:

Capacity:
IMR 18650 = 1,600 mAh
LiPo 18650 = 2,600 mAh
CR123 = 1,500 mAh
LiPo RCR123 = 700 mAh
LiPo 2x RCR123 = 1,400 mAh
IMR RCR123 = 500 mAh
IMR 2x RCR123 = 1,000 mAh

Max safe discharge rates (C = Capacity):
LiPo = 2C
IMR = 10C
LiMn\LiFe = 2-8C (Depends on battery)

So, max safe discharge for the following batteries:
IMR 18650 = 16A
LiPo 18650 = 5.2A
CR123 = 3A-12A (Depends on battery)
LiPo RCR123 = 1.4A
LiPo 2x RCR123 = 2.8A
IMR RCR123 = 5A
IMR 2x RCR123

Right now, your running a 2.8A dropin on 2xRCR123s, which can handle 2.8A safely (LiPo can actually handle 4-5C, but it starts to get dangerous) but only have a runtime of a half hour at best; RCRs lose a lot of capacity at high draw rates.

But, you could EASILY run an 18650; it can handle up to 5.2A, far more then RCRs or then you need. That would boost you to roughly 50 minutes of runtime, easily doubling your current runs. And, sinc 18650s have less of a voltage drop, it would be brighter to boot! You certainly don't need an IMR 18650 for these amperages.

So go ahead, pick up an AW 18650 or buy some cheapos off of DX - either way, you'll easily double your runtime and simplify your charging. Enjoy! :wave:

 

[yalskey]

Thanks for the info JoshConsulting. I couldn't exactly remember what I was told. I'll have to look up the PM's and other correspondence with FlashCrazy to set myself straight. I already have AW's 18650, so I wouldn't have to buy anymore... although those newer 2600 mAH ones look cool.

As far as what I paid Alan for the drop-in, I'm really not comfortable giving out that information in a public forum. It wasn't "DX" cheap, but I thought it was a fair price based on the good service and quality product he provided me. I hope you understand. If the deal was between you and me, I'd extend the same considerations to you

(No harm, no foul in asking though... I don't blame ya there) http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

[gollum]

I agree, when I made my first >1000 OTF led light, I was like, WTF? That's it? It looks obviously brighter but doesn't look 2x brighter than 500 OTF light. I know for human eyes to see a light as 2X bright, it needs 4x the Lumen increase, but still, it means that I'll need >2000 OTF to get my socks blown off & I've still yet to achieve that

Also, floody light looks to human eyes a lot brighter than thrower does,
the Triple XPG (more floody with LXP optics) looked a lot brighter than the the SSR-50 thrower, but they had about the same tun-on OTF.

cheers ma_sha ... above and earlier your comments are ...illuminating :laughing:


and to Yalesky ... the best option for twice the lumens is the simple flashaholics rule ...

buy 2 lights

actually I was wondering the same thing myself....

I read some time ago about a new invention,a totally new type of led that was 10 times more efficient but also much less heat and very small,they were so good they were thinking of using them as streetlighting...

It was posted on a gizmo/gadget tech site ...I'll have a poke around for it ,unless someone else recalls?

 

[jenskh]

10 times more efficient than the leds we use today is theoretically impossible. The best we can hope for is 3- 4 times more efficient. Then more or less all energy is transfered into light.

 

[joshconsulting]

10 times more efficient than the leds we use today is theoretically impossible. The best we can hope for is 3- 4 times more efficient. Then more or less all energy is transfered into light.

Yes, but at that point 0 heat will be generated. A 18650 IMR cell can easily pump out 16A, but a current-gen LED generates so much heat that a pocket host is overwhelmed at 2.5A+ while generating 500 OTF. Pair a LED 4 times as efficient with 16A of current for 40 times the light output, and viola! A 20,000 lumen OTF pocket light. Of course, it will only run for 8 minutes, but we can assume batteries will get more efficient as time goes on.