Is the XR-E still the King-Of-Throw?

CarpentryHero

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If your looking for monster throw, go to Saablaster's section of the forum, the OneStopThrowShop, he's pushing the envelope for throw.

i myself get all the throw I'll ever need out of the Thrunite Tn31 with XML2 emitter. 125k lux and 1300 lumens
 

TEEJ

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TEEJ, sorry but your explanation is incorrect. Light does not track straight like railroad tracks. The field of view is identical whether its 20 feet or 200 feet. The light spreads so that the spot size on the target gets bigger at a distance. An aspherical spot at 50 meters down the railroad track would be 4 feet wide. At 500 meters it will be 40 feet wide. It will appear larger than the railroad track. It doesn't behave like a 4 foot wide railroad track, getting smaller and smaller to the viewer.
The XPG is 2.56 square millimeters. An XRE-EZ900 is .81 square millimeters. 300 lumens from the XRE-EZ900 would require 960 lumens from the XPG for the same surface brightness of 370 lumens/per square millimeter. Throw is directly related to surface brightness and the collimation achieved by the reflector/lens. One can achieve equal Lux with the bigger LED's. But it requires a much larger reflector. But from the same "equal sized" reflector/lens, the brighter LED will win.

Nope, you missed my point.

:D

I wasn't talking about the light itself converging, I was talking about the spot we SEE getting smaller as it recedes off into the distance...so that the two tracks eventually do not appear as two tracks, as our eyes can't resolve objects that close together as they become too far away.

IE: If you could SEE a 2' wide spot of light at say a mile, you might not be able to see it if it were far enough away, even though its the same size.

Add to that that the spot is 1/4 as bright at double the distance, but is at least larger depending on the beam angle, etc...you get a progressively harder to resolve spot of light....even if it were from a laser beam, etc.

:D
 

kengps

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Nope, you missed my point.

:D

I wasn't talking about the light itself converging, I was talking about the spot we SEE getting smaller as it recedes off into the distance...so that the two tracks eventually do not appear as two tracks, as our eyes can't resolve objects that close together as they become too far away.

IE: If you could SEE a 2' wide spot of light at say a mile, you might not be able to see it if it were far enough away, even though its the same size.

Add to that that the spot is 1/4 as bright at double the distance, but is at least larger depending on the beam angle, etc...you get a progressively harder to resolve spot of light....even if it were from a laser beam, etc.

:D

But a spot of light doesn't stay the same. The light spreads, and so the spot of light that is 2' wide at 50' will be 20' wide at 500'. It does not get apparently smaller to the eye. It stays the same.
 

JCD

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But a spot of light doesn't stay the same. The light spreads, and so the spot of light that is 2' wide at 50' will be 20' wide at 500'. It does not get apparently smaller to the eye. It stays the same.

Correct.

Put another way, the steradian measure of a flashlight beam is constant, regardless of the distance from the flashlight at which we measure.
 

TEEJ

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But a spot of light doesn't stay the same. The light spreads, and so the spot of light that is 2' wide at 50' will be 20' wide at 500'. It does not get apparently smaller to the eye. It stays the same.

Well, that depends on the beam angle of the light vs the apparent convergence of the boundaries at the distances in question.

I know in practice that the hot spot is typically small, and, the last vestiges of it that can reach the rated cd, etc, are not that much larger, as they were from the central part of the beam to start with.

So, sure, as we both agree, the spot does get larger with distance, but, it also gets dimmer, and the brightest spot of the hot spot, the part of the beam that can eventually hit the maximum range...will become harder to see at great distances.


If I use the 1.4º beam angle for the DEFT-X or TN31mb, longer range lights...and say that a 1,000 meters a 1.4º beam should be ~ 25.2 meters across.

At a km, 25 meters doesn't look as large as it does right in front of you, its a proportionally smaller part of your field of view.

If I extrapolate a bit, and call it 10,000 M (10 km), how large an object can you resolve at 10 km?

If using a beam of light to see it, that light is getting dimmer as it gets further away...so its harder to tell two objects from one object as you get further away...and its harder to resolve them with less light.


So the larger albeit dimmer beam is still far enough away that the objects you are trying to resolve appear as a smaller and smaller proportion of your field of view.


So, to put it another way (Maybe I was being confusing?) -

I have to tell if there are one or two men approaching, and whether they are armed.

The further away they are, the harder it is to resolve details such as if they are armed, or, even if I see one guy, or two close together, etc.


If they are right in front of me, I can see all the details clearly, and, they might be 50% of my total FOV.

If they are a bit further away, they might drop to 10%, 1% or even less of my FOV, and I will not have the resolution to make out details.


If my light beam hits them while they are close enough to not have their images merge/details blur...as in there's enough lux on target to resolve the details, it all works.

If they go 2x further away, there's 1/4 the lux, AND they are en even smaller proportion of my FOV, and, I might have needed more lux, not less, to help make out those details.

So, while the beam itself is traveling along regardless of what we need to see...the OBJECTS are getting smaller and smaller to our point of view...as with distance away, the apparent/resolvable distance between objects decreases (They look smaller to us when they are further away).

Now, your BRAIN will use context clues to try and "correct" this...so you will "know" that the man 500 M away is not really just a really small man...but, its can't SEE that the man is the same size, it SEES the man as smaller, and then, internally, says, well, he's a man, so he's probably ~ 5-6' tall, etc.

We know this happens, because we can take a really small man, put him a short distance away, and we will see him as further away.

We can draw lines on the ground that splay outwards, or inwards, but which LOOK like they are parallel when viewed on end....as our brain simply assumes they are like the RR tracks, and we PERCEIVE the splayed lines as ending closer to us, and the converging lines as ending further from us, etc.

So, objects do appear smaller when they are further away, as they are a smaller proportion of our field of view...but we mentally tend to adjust this to compensate. The compensation does NOT add resolution though...it merely tricks us into a correction for size/distance, a correction, at night, that can be severely fooled.

In boating for example, if you think a marker light is 12" across, and you see a marker light, you will run into it if it were actually a 3" marker light that was a lot closer than you thought....as, at night, you lose a lot of depth of field and other reference points....and your brain would tell you the 12" light was X distance away, but, not that it was a 3" light, your eyes can't really tell the difference.

You'd SEE a smaller light, mentally correct that image to your assumed 12" size, then, mentally adjust the projected distance to the marker....but, all you really saw was a smaller marker, but, assumed it was a larger marker further away.



:D
 
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JCD

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Well, that depends on the beam angle of the light vs the apparent convergence of the boundaries at the distances in question.

I know in practice that the hot spot is typically small…

Yes, and that hotspot gets wider (in terms of width, measured in meters, feet, etc; not degrees) the further out the beam goes. No matter how far out you measure, it takes up the exact same portion of your field of view, though its intensity decreases with distance.

To use your two men analogy, it will be just as easy to resolve two men standing 100 feet apart when they are 200 meters away as it is to resolve two men standing 1 foot apart when they are 2 meters away. If we liken the men to a flashlight beam, they have to get farther apart from each other as they get farther apart from us.
 

TEEJ

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Yes, and that hotspot gets wider (in terms of width, measured in meters, feet, etc; not degrees) the further out the beam goes. No matter how far out you measure, it takes up the exact same portion of your field of view, though its intensity decreases with distance.

To use your two men analogy, it will be just as easy to resolve two men standing 100 feet apart when they are 200 meters away as it is to resolve two men standing 1 foot apart when they are 2 meters away. If we liken the men to a flashlight beam, they have to get farther apart from each other as they get farther apart from us.

I can tell you from experience that it is harder to resolve two objects when they are further away, and the beam getting wider and dimmer doesn't change that.

You need more light to use your fovea, the part of your vision that can resolve details best. The further away the targets, the smaller the proportion of your field of view they occupy.

You can resolve with peripheral vision at close enough ranges, but, for great distance, you need your fovea's FOV, which is only ~ 2º of your TOTAL fov, etc.

The BEAM gets wider, but, it gets dimmer at the same time...so, as your fovea needs more and more light TO resolve details, the beam is getting dimmer and dimmer.

And, the point is not to see men standing progressively further apart, its to see how many there are...and, if they are close together, you need them to be close enough for your eye to resolve them from each other, etc.


Perhaps you are talking about what the beam does as a beam, and I am talking about trying to see with it...as I think that would explain some of the confusion.


Again, I am saying that the further away things are, the harder it is to resolve details, period, and, that TO resolve details at great distances, you NEED to use the part of your vision that is the WORST at low light reception...so as distance increases, you essentially need more lux to resolve the same details, but, your beam is getting dimmer and more dispersed, providing less and less lux on target as you need more and more.

:D


As for the XR-E, no, its not the king of throw, but, The hard driven XPE 2 is a lot better. The XPG2 looks good too, can be driven more lightly if desired, etc.

:D
 
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JCD

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I can tell you from experience that it is harder to resolve two objects when they are further away

Yes, if they remain the same distance from each other, but that's wholly irrelevant to the current discussion. Your flashlight beam does not maintain a constant width (in length units) the farther out it shines. It does maintain a constant steradian measure, no matter how far out it shines. The beam takes up a constant portion of your field of view, in theory and in practice. There is no RR effect, as you call it, with flashlight beams.
 

TEEJ

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Yes, if they remain the same distance from each other, but that's wholly irrelevant to the current discussion. Your flashlight beam does not maintain a constant width (in length units) the farther out it shines. It does maintain a constant steradian measure, no matter how far out it shines. The beam takes up a constant portion of your field of view, in theory and in practice. There is no RR effect, as you call it, with flashlight beams.

sigh.

I never said it was the beam, I'm not sure how that kept getting missed.

I used the RR effect to describe objects (OBJECTS) getting smaller as a proportion of your field of view.

Somehow, that was never able to stick, and kept getting dragged out as describing the beam itself, rather than what was in the beam.


:D

If it helps, I don't need to be convinced that the beam spreads as it propagates....I referred to the beam angle, etc, as relevant to that aspect.

If you want to consider the idea that objects appear as smaller and smaller proportions of your view as they get further away, cool. If you cannot consider that, and feel that saying that means you are compelled to tell me that beams do the opposite, I can comfort you to know that I agree with you about the beams, now, and always.

:D


I'll agree to disagree about objects though.
 

SCEMan

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How about in an aspherical? I've been trying to determine if I should swap my 2.1A XR-E EZ900 for an XP-E2 but no one seems so have first-hand knowledge...
 

JCD

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sigh.

I never said it was the beam, I'm not sure how that kept getting missed.

It's probably because of the post in which you wrote:
and, analogously, a small spot of light is eventually too small to see


The spot from your light never gets too small to see. It does eventually get too dim to see, but never too small.
 

TEEJ

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It's probably because of the post in which you wrote:

[/COLOR]
The spot from your light never gets too small to see. It does eventually get too dim to see, but never too small.

lol

ok.

:D

Too dim would be more appropriate.
 

kengps

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It's probably because of the post in which you wrote:

[/COLOR]
The spot from your light never gets too small to see. It does eventually get too dim to see, but never too small.

Exactly. And to further add...the field of view stays exactly the same. Try this. Shine a beam on a nearby edge, so that the beam is cut in half. You will see that the Field of view is exactly the same whether you're looking at the edge of the wall 20 feet in front of you, or the other half of the beam in the background 500' away. Field of view is exactly identical.
 

Poppy

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Here are beam shots of a variety of throwers.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...erminator-TK75-TN31mb-BTU-TN31-King-Beamshots

When I see people looking for a "thrower" I wonder... How far? and Why?... what are they looking for/at?
I'm thinking that while some lights may reach out to 700 yards with visible, usable light (and .25 lumin is not enough for me) *I* would have to couple it with a spotting scope. Take a look at the TN31mb, in my mind, by time that reaches out far enough to be better than the other lights, I'd need a scope.
 

dajabec

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Here are beam shots of a variety of throwers.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...erminator-TK75-TN31mb-BTU-TN31-King-Beamshots

When I see people looking for a "thrower" I wonder... How far? and Why?... what are they looking for/at?
I'm thinking that while some lights may reach out to 700 yards with visible, usable light (and .25 lumin is not enough for me) *I* would have to couple it with a spotting scope. Take a look at the TN31mb, in my mind, by time that reaches out far enough to be better than the other lights, I'd need a scope.

Because the hotspot is brighter at all distances, not just at 700 meters.
 

kengps

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Because the hotspot is brighter at all distances, not just at 700 meters.

Well said. Poppy...if .25 lux is not enough for you with a thrower good for 200 meters, then perhaps a 700 meter thrower would be sufficiently bright at the 200 meters range for you. Understand the reasoning? We thrower users don't necessarily need them for use at their maximum range. We want maximum Lux at any range we use them.
 

rayman

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So in conclusion is the XR-E still a top choice for a thrower in a usable size. Sure there are new and brighter emitters like the XM-L but those need bigger reflectors to achieve similar or better throw. My question was more about the emitters but at the end it's sure about specific flashlights.

Regarding the same price and size ranges the XR-E is still the way to go?

rayman
 

CarpentryHero

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It's going to come down to specs for the emitter champ. The XPe2 is not in any stock flashlights afaik so xre ez900 may still be the champ


I have an xpe2 p60 made by VinhNyugen, and it is a really impressive led, it can be driven pretty hard, I hope it gets utilized in a thower soon
 

The_Driver

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So in conclusion is the XR-E still a top choice for a thrower in a usable size. Sure there are new and brighter emitters like the XM-L but those need bigger reflectors to achieve similar or better throw. My question was more about the emitters but at the end it's sure about specific flashlights.

Regarding the same price and size ranges the XR-E is still the way to go?

rayman

Its good but not great!!!

When you de-dome the current Cree LEDs like the XM-L2 and especially the XP-G2 and the XP-E2 they have a much higher surface brightness that an XR-E.

I have a very well known custom light that had an XR-E mounted directly on a copper heatsink. The led was switched out for a de-domed XP-E2. The driver and everything else were kept the same. The lux numbers tripled!!!


When mounted on copper PCBs tha new leds can also take a lot of current. The XP-G2 can be driven at up to 5A. The XP-E2 at up to 2,6A. etc.
This is how saabluster achieves those high lux numbers (at least all the light excpt the DEFT-X): he de-domed the led and improves the heatsinking.
 
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