Is this correct about 14500 batteries?

[joeyboy]

Such a newbie question it's unreal!

I've read two things about keeping these li-ion batteries so they'll last longer and not fail on you.

1) When your not using them, make sure their not at full charge, more like 40-50% left in them, and put them in the fridge.

2) Don't let them totally run out of charge too often. Say your flashlight lasts 1.5hrs before they run flat. If possible after 45 mins recharge them, makes em last longer.

Are the above correct? I've ordered some trustfire protected cells and a charger for my new flashlight.

 

[FroggyTaco]

Both things are technically correct.

You can run them closer to flat if you are gonna charge them right away.

 

[ELDRAW]

Such a newbie question it's unreal!

I've read two things about keeping these li-ion batteries so they'll last longer and not fail on you.

1) When your not using them, make sure their not at full charge, more like 40-50% left in them, and put them in the fridge.

2) Don't let them totally run out of charge too often. Say your flashlight lasts 1.5hrs before they run flat. If possible after 45 mins recharge them, makes em last longer.

Are the above correct? I've ordered some trustfire protected cells and a charger for my new flashlight.

I didn't know you should not keep them fully charged! Whats the point in having batteries ready if you cant keep them fully charged? Seems a bit silly to me. At first i thought li-ion batteries would be a great idea but the more i read about them i.e not storing at full charge and they shouldn't be run down completely im not sure their such good idea for my needs.
If i go camping should i count the number of hours i have used the torch so far to make sure i dont run the battery too low? How do you guys stop running your batteries too low?

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Eldraw,

You can keep your Li-Ion cells fully charged... You will just have to replace them more often.

You can run your Li-Ion cells all the way down each time you discharge them... You will just have to replace them more often.

When I go camping, I take fully charged cells, and occasionally run them down a little lower than I should for optimum longevity, but I consider it a small price to pay for the opportunity to have illumination in the darkness.

I also have a good idea of the runtime of my lights used for camping, and can reasonably estimate the number of batteries I will need for a trip.

At home (i.e. between camping trips) I put my cells into longer term storage by discharging around 30% of their capacity. This leaves me with 70% of my initial run time for emergencies, and I can make up the other 30% simply by having an extra cell or two as spares.

We tend to get a little fanatical here about batteries and flashlights. Many of us have experienced problems and share information so others can avoid similar problems. There is no rule stating that you have to follow what we have found to be the best care for your cells.

However, when your cells loose vibrancy, I expect you not to complain too loudly...

Tom

 

[andrewnewman]

I didn't know you should not keep them fully charged! Whats the point in having batteries ready if you cant keep them fully charged? Seems a bit silly to me. At first i thought li-ion batteries would be a great idea but the more i read about them i.e not storing at full charge and they shouldn't be run down completely im not sure their such good idea for my needs.
If i go camping should i count the number of hours i have used the torch so far to make sure i dont run the battery too low? How do you guys stop running your batteries too low?

Remember, a lot of the advice you are seeing here is targeted at people wanting to know what the best approach is to managing LiIon batteries. Just like I don't always follow the best advice my doctor offers on nutrition, I don't always follow the best advice on LiIon battery care.

Also remember that a lot of people on this forum have dozens and dozens of LiIon batteries that they want to care for. My approach is a bit simpler. I keep two (yep...just two) AW RCR123a batteries that get used in my EDC flashlight. When I switch EDCs, I remove the battery from one (they are all single cell CR123 form flashlights) and put it in the other. I keep them both fully charged. When I decide it is time to charge the one in the flashlight I swap in the other and charge the first. When they start to seem to lose capacity or if they seem a little warmer charging, I check the self discharge rate after a week (recording the voltage 15 minutes after they came off the charger). If sitting on a cool shelf they have lost more than 0.1V, I schedule them for replacement.

Using this simple (non optimal) strategy, I get about 2.5-3 years out of a pair of AW RCR123a batteries. At that rate my LiIon battery "habit" costs well under 10 dollars a year. That's a little over the cost of a pack of cigarettes here in Connecticut (no...I don't smoke!).

 

[SemiMan]

It all comes down to how you are going to use your lithium ion batteries and what you expect out of them.

- It is bad to "completely" discharge a lithium-ion battery. That said, if you are using protected batteries, they are going to shut off at 2.5V or higher, maybe 2.7V. That will prevent really bad discharge.

- How often will you be running your batteries out? Once a month? week? day? If you run your batteries out to where the protection kicks in and then recharge them soon, you are going to get say 100-200 cycles. A cycle where you have at least 80% of the original life. A once a month run-down is going to give you years of service.

- It is absolutely true that if you discharge your battery less, you can get more cycles. 10,000 cycles at 10% discharge is not of reason.

- This behavior of reduced cycle life with depth of discharge is not particular to lithium batteries and has to be taken into account with other battery chemistries.

- Reducing the end of charge voltage also extends the life of the batteries...... but of course that also reduces the storage of the batteries and sort of defeats a good reason to use Lithium-Ion.

- Storing Lithium-Ion batteries fully charged at room temperature causes them to deteriorate quickly....think 20% per year, or say as much as 100 deep discharge cycles. There are two ways to reduce this self deterioration, store them at lower voltage or store them at a lower temperature. Personally, I charge them completely then put them in the freezer. When you store them in the freezer, you need to let them warm up before using them.

Hence, if you use them every day, charge them every day to get the most life out of them by reducing the depth of discharge and perhaps keep them cooler. If you only use them infrequently but want them ready to go, then charge them completely but store them at cold temperatures. If you "know" when you are going to need them, then yes you can store them partially discharged, but I do not find that very convenient.

Semiman

 

[Magic Matt]

This is basically why I still prefer NiMH AA cells.
- Cheaper and more readily available. If I wear out my AAs through abuse, it's cheap to get more.
- Safer - they don't detonate and take the house with them if you overcharge them or overdrain them.
- Easy to get non-rechargables in an emergency (when was the last time you saw an 18650 in Wal-Mart? That's right - never.)

Call me lazy if you want - I just can't be bothered with Li-Ion cells. They're a pain in the butt on the camcorder to be honest, so I'm looking to see if I can adapt it to run on AA Eneloops.

 

[Wiggle]

Personally I just leave my cells topped up all the time. I use cheaper Trustfire ones so I don't feel bad if I have to replace them a little sooner when the convenience of having them always ready is so nice.

 

[T0RN4D0]

Hehe Li-Ions are good for frequently used lights, if you plan to charge it and leave it for a year or two untill you need it, than you picked the wrong chemistry.

 

[Hondo]

Hehe Li-Ions are good for frequently used lights, if you plan to charge it and leave it for a year or two untill you need it, than you picked the wrong chemistry.

I'm not so sure I agree. While lithium primaries are the top choice for storage, if you have a light in AAA, AA or CR123 size, Li-Ion have the lowest self discharge I am aware of for any rechargable cell. Charging an 18650 to 3.95-4.0 volts and putting it in a BOB would both give you a lot of ready-to-go power for a long time, and not be particularly abusive to the cell.

 

[T0RN4D0]

Well yes, but if you store it at half capacity for emergencies then you might as well go with a fully charged LSD NiMh. The way i see it its like storing half a bottle of water in an emergency pack.

And a fully charged li-ion looses a lot of capacity if it just sits there on a shelf doing nothing...

 

[Linger]

Disagree Torn4do, your water analogy isn't quite fair.
Hondo's 4.0v BOB batteries will give him more power then a fully charged 14500 would have given a few years ago. And even if he left it at 3.9v, it would be a better power source than any available 10 years ago.

 

[T0RN4D0]

Why are you comparing todays technology with older versions? I'm just saying you might as well take the LSD path instead of half full lions that. Half full that you sholdn't discharge too much.

Also a problem I see with this is that it is easier to charge the cell than to charge it to 70%.

 

[Light11]

It all comes down to how you are going to use your lithium ion batteries and what you expect out of them.

- It is bad to "completely" discharge a lithium-ion battery. That said, if you are using protected batteries, they are going to shut off at 2.5V or higher, maybe 2.7V. That will prevent really bad discharge.

- How often will you be running your batteries out? Once a month? week? day? If you run your batteries out to where the protection kicks in and then recharge them soon, you are going to get say 100-200 cycles. A cycle where you have at least 80% of the original life. A once a month run-down is going to give you years of service.

- It is absolutely true that if you discharge your battery less, you can get more cycles. 10,000 cycles at 10% discharge is not of reason.

- This behavior of reduced cycle life with depth of discharge is not particular to lithium batteries and has to be taken into account with other battery chemistries.

- Reducing the end of charge voltage also extends the life of the batteries...... but of course that also reduces the storage of the batteries and sort of defeats a good reason to use Lithium-Ion.

- Storing Lithium-Ion batteries fully charged at room temperature causes them to deteriorate quickly....think 20% per year, or say as much as 100 deep discharge cycles. There are two ways to reduce this self deterioration, store them at lower voltage or store them at a lower temperature. Personally, I charge them completely then put them in the freezer. When you store them in the freezer, you need to let them warm up before using them.

Hence, if you use them every day, charge them every day to get the most life out of them by reducing the depth of discharge and perhaps keep them cooler. If you only use them infrequently but want them ready to go, then charge them completely but store them at cold temperatures. If you "know" when you are going to need them, then yes you can store them partially discharged, but I do not find that very convenient.

Semiman

I want to store LI-Ions fully charged in the freezer. What is the recommended temperature for storing'em? :thinking:

 

[Mrija]

Hi,

well storing Li-ion fully charged is not recommended :shakehead. I would say give it a 70-80% charge, it will be much better. When you order them, that how they usually come. I guess it's around 3,75V but depend on the chemistry.

Enjoy!

Mrija

 

[Hondo]

I want to store LI-Ions fully charged in the freezer. What is the recommended temperature for storing'em? :thinking:

From what I have gathered, it is unwise to store them at freezer temperatures, but the refrigerator is a good choice. Make sure to seal them in a ziplock bag to keep them dry. You will be about 90% full at 4.1 volts, and the cells will not suffer near as much loss of capacity over time as if stored at 4.2 volts. Don't confuse that with self discharge, I am refering to a loss of total capacity of the cell due to storage at full charge. That is to say, if you run a full cycle on the cell to measure it's actual capacity, cells charged to or stored at 4.2 volts will have a lower capacity over time than cells charged to 4.1 volts. That is why unless I really think I need that bleeding edge capacity, I try to stop my charges between 4.1 and 4.15 volts.

 

[Light11]

Thanks for the help Hondo,good thing i read this, i was gonna freeze'em

 

[357mag1]

I have a set of Panasonic's 18650s that I tore out of an old battery pack that I used to keep charged up all the time. It had numerous adapters to power various digital cameras. They still charge to about 4.17 volts and seem to last well in my lights. I've had them in the pack for close to 12 years though they have been sitting around for about 5 years (started with a full charge on them). I just recently took the pack apart and tore the tabs off then used a file to dress up the ends. Not sure what capacity they have but I used one in my TK11 R2 for over 30 minutes and it read 3.99 volts when I checked.
They might be the exception to the rule though.

 

[joeyboy]

cheers for all the info guys, I did a me...which is forgetting you ever made a thread..:twothumbs

So yeah my batteries and charger arrived to today, along with a universal adapter so I can plug this USA charger into my UK plug.

I'll leave them as they are(I assume their charged but not fully) in the fridge. When I get my flashlight I'll charge them and when not in use leave them in the fridge in a sealed bag.

I won't be using it that much, it's just for when I want to do work in the loft or in case of a power cut or the like.