Mag 2 or 3D LED - Help me decide

ebow86

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If there's any light out there that should be justified in calling itself completely legitimately fully regulated it's the Surefire A2 Aviator. 80 lumen's of steady output for approx 50 min from an incandescent lamp using 2 measly CR123's? If that's not regulation then I don't know what is. I'll admit my technical knowledge isn't as good as many here, but with the aviator, I think there's alot more going on there than just a relatively flat output over the duration of the battery life.
 

lumenal

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This might explain why lumenal sees the Cree MagLED as being brighter than the 2D Rebel Mag. The 3D Rebel/Cree MagLEDs produce around 90 lumens while the 2D makes around 110.

That could be, as I only did the ceiling bounce test in a pitch black walk in closet, nothing too scientific. ;)

The Cree MagLED did seem brighter though, even a little brighter than my SureFire U2 on the highest setting (100 lumens).

IIRC, the packaging on the Cree MagLED stated 131 lumens by the FL1 Standard, however accurate that may be. :thumbsup:
 

robostudent5000

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So, by your defintion, if a light's runtime plot is flat for the first 20% of the total runtime, then that light is regulated? Very strange definition.

What if it was flat for 10% or 5% or 1% of total runtime? Still regulated?

Noticed you avoided commenting on the L1T. Is it any way regulated on alkaline? Poorly regulated, semi-regulated?

How about the L1T on NiMH? Regulated or not?

i really hope that this is the last time i need to post on this thread because i think this discussion stopped being constructive a while ago. before i go, though, i wanted to at least address your questions.

my definition of a regulated light, which i believe to be the correct definition, is a light that can maintain a relatively consistent level of brightness as battery voltage drops. that's the definition that i stated in post #24 of this thread.

The introductory post of the CPF Welcome Mat describes regulation by saying, "In a regulated light, the circuitry will try to minimize the effects of the battery. " (see Electronic/Electrical FAQs)

while the wording isn't the same, i think the same principle applies. a regulated light has circuitry which maintains a relatively consistent level of brightness as battery voltage drops. maybe the light won't have a completely flat output curve for its entire runtime, but its circuits do something to minimize the effects of the declining battery voltage. whether that's for 20%, 10%, or 5% of its effective runtime, i don't know. but it does something at some point.

in the Fenix 2AA alkaline runtime graphs that you and I have found, we have clear evidence that the circuits in Fenix 2AA lights do something to combat declining battery voltage. it may not be for as long as you think it should be, but it does happen at some point.

in the Mag 2AA alkaline runtime graphs that you and I have found, we have clear evidence that the circuits in Mag 2AA light do nothing to combat declining battery voltage. it never happens.

that is why, based on the evidence, i can only conclude that the Fenix 2AA lights in question are regulated and the Mag 2AA lights in question are not.

now, i suppose that you could argue that a light that only regulates for 20% of its runtime does such a poor job of regulation that it shouldn't be called that at all. and if you want to go with that, that's fine. that's how you feel and you're certainly free to feel that way. but at that point, i think you're ignoring the technical definition of the term and giving the word "regulation" some kind of moral value, like it denotes something that is good, and that it shouldn't be used unless the light can perform up to the absolute good that you ascribe to it. i don't think that there's anything wrong with that necessarily, but it may be confusing to people like me who regard the word "regulation" mainly by its technical meaning. and since the goal of any forum is to exchange information in a way that we can all understand, creating confusion with terminology can become problematic. that's why its best to stick to the most technical definitions of terms when we can.

as for why i didn't include the L1T in my analysis, that's because comparing a Mag 2AA to a Fenix 1AA is not an apples to apples comparison. since the purpse of regulation is to, "minimize the effects of the battery," it only makes sense to use the same battery setup for a fair comparison. otherwise, you have two variables instead of one, and it becomes really difficult to do a fair analysis.

i hope this addresses your questions to some level of satisfaction. if not, what can i say, i did the best i could.

Edit: i just thought of a different example. car engines! let's say that the Fenix 2AA is a car with a V8 engine and the Mag 2AA is a car with a V6 engine. although generally V8 engines are more powerful than V6 engines, some are less powerful. let's say that the V8 in the Fenix is a crappy V8 and is less powerful than the V6 in the Mag. this makes the Fenix V8 really crappy, but it's still a V8. and the V6 in the Mag may be great, but it's still a V6. similarly, the Fenix circuits are circuits which are designed to compensate for declining battery voltage and Mag circuits are circuits which are not. Fenix circuits may not do their job very well, but they are still circuits designed to compensate for declining battery voltage, while Mag circuits, no matter how well they perform at their intended task, are still not designed to compensate for declining battery voltage. so, regardless of performance, they are what they are. a V8 is a V8, a V6 is a V6, a regulated light is a regulated light, and an unregulated light is an unregulated light.

now, i suppose that you could claim that the V8 in the Fenix is so abhorrently crappy that it doesn't deserve to be called a V8, and start calling it a V6 instead. or claim that the V6 in the Mag is so amazingly excellent that it deserves to be called a V8. but if you do that, you will have strayed from the technical meanings of terms V6 and V8, given them alternate moral meanings, and more likely than not, people will get confused. similarly, if you say that a regulated light is unregulated because it sucks and that an unregulated light is regulated because it's great, people will get confused.
 
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bstrickler

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OP: Go with the 3D Cree XP-E Mag.

+1

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/Bstrickler/DSC07309.jpg

That's a comparison of the Mag 3D XP-E vs a Quark AA (on 70-lumen setting). You can see the spill from the Quark, but the hotspot and spill from the Mag overpower it after about 50-75 feet. The house in the hotspot from the Mag is about 200' away, and for me, on my laptop screen, is pretty close to how bright it looks in real life.

~Brian
 

lumenal

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+1

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/Bstrickler/DSC07309.jpg

That's a comparison of the Mag 3D XP-E vs a Quark AA (on 70-lumen setting). You can see the spill from the Quark, but the hotspot and spill from the Mag overpower it after about 50-75 feet. The house in the hotspot from the Mag is about 200' away, and for me, on my laptop screen, is pretty close to how bright it looks in real life.

~Brian

Nice pic Brian, thanks for sharing. At this POV, the Quark seems to be all spill.

Those MagLEDs (both Cree and Rebel) sure do throw... especially when focusing down that hotspot to about baseball size. :eek:oo:
 

ringzero

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i really hope that this is the last time i need to post on this thread because i think this discussion stopped being constructive a while ago. before i go, though, i wanted to at least address your questions.

my definition of a regulated light, which i believe to be the correct definition, is a light that can maintain a relatively consistent level of brightness as battery voltage drops. that's the definition that i stated in post #24 of this thread.

The introductory post of the CPF Welcome Mat describes regulation by saying, "In a regulated light, the circuitry will try to minimize the effects of the battery. " (see Electronic/Electrical FAQs)

while the wording isn't the same, i think the same principle applies. a regulated light has circuitry which maintains a relatively consistent level of brightness as battery voltage drops. maybe the light won't have a completely flat output curve for its entire runtime, but its circuits do something to minimize the effects of the declining battery voltage. whether that's for 20%, 10%, or 5% of its effective runtime, i don't know. but it does something at some point.

in the Fenix 2AA alkaline runtime graphs that you and I have found, we have clear evidence that the circuits in Fenix 2AA lights do something to combat declining battery voltage. it may not be for as long as you think it should be, but it does happen at some point.

in the Mag 2AA alkaline runtime graphs that you and I have found, we have clear evidence that the circuits in Mag 2AA light do nothing to combat declining battery voltage. it never happens.

that is why, based on the evidence, i can only conclude that the Fenix 2AA lights in question are regulated and the Mag 2AA lights in question are not.

now, i suppose that you could argue that a light that only regulates for 20% of its runtime does such a poor job of regulation that it shouldn't be called that at all. and if you want to go with that, that's fine. that's how you feel and you're certainly free to feel that way. but at that point, i think you're ignoring the technical definition of the term and giving the word "regulation" some kind of moral value, like it denotes something that is good, and that it shouldn't be used unless the light can perform up to the absolute good that you ascribe to it. i don't think that there's anything wrong with that necessarily, but it may be confusing to people like me who regard the word "regulation" mainly by its technical meaning. and since the goal of any forum is to exchange information in a way that we can all understand, creating confusion with terminology can become problematic. that's why its best to stick to the most technical definitions of terms when we can.

as for why i didn't include the L1T in my analysis, that's because comparing a Mag 2AA to a Fenix 1AA is not an apples to apples comparison. since the purpse of regulation is to, "minimize the effects of the battery," it only makes sense to use the same battery setup for a fair comparison. otherwise, you have two variables instead of one, and it becomes really difficult to do a fair analysis.

i hope this addresses your questions to some level of satisfaction. if not, what can i say, i did the best i could.

Edit: i just thought of a different example. car engines! let's say that the Fenix 2AA is a car with a V8 engine and the Mag 2AA is a car with a V6 engine. although generally V8 engines are more powerful than V6 engines, some are less powerful. let's say that the V8 in the Fenix is a crappy V8 and is less powerful than the V6 in the Mag. this makes the Fenix V8 really crappy, but it's still a V8. and the V6 in the Mag may be great, but it's still a V6. similarly, the Fenix circuits are circuits which are designed to compensate for declining battery voltage and Mag circuits are circuits which are not. Fenix circuits may not do their job very well, but they are still circuits designed to compensate for declining battery voltage, while Mag circuits, no matter how well they perform at their intended task, are still not designed to compensate for declining battery voltage. so, regardless of performance, they are what they are. a V8 is a V8, a V6 is a V6, a regulated light is a regulated light, and an unregulated light is an unregulated light.

now, i suppose that you could claim that the V8 in the Fenix is so abhorrently crappy that it doesn't deserve to be called a V8, and start calling it a V6 instead. or claim that the V6 in the Mag is so amazingly excellent that it deserves to be called a V8. but if you do that, you will have strayed from the technical meanings of terms V6 and V8, given them alternate moral meanings, and more likely than not, people will get confused. similarly, if you say that a regulated light is unregulated because it sucks and that an unregulated light is regulated because it's great, people will get confused.


I don't really care how you define "regulation" - you are free to define it any way you like.

But, you don't apply even your defintion of "regulation" consistently. You bend, stretch, and torture your defintion until it fits whatever conclusion you have already decided to reach.

I think the term "regulation" is so vague as be nearly meaningless, because different people will use it to mean substantially different things.

The reason I got involved in this discussion with you is because I think you were wrong in your scathing condemnation of Robin24K earlier in the thread.

With a concept as vague and elastic as "regulation" people may often disagree over applying the term to any given light. That is why I think your condemnation of Robin24K was out of line.

I still think you are wrong, but I'm going to drop this because I think this discussion has reached the point of diminishing returns.

No hard feelings on my end as I enjoyed our discussion, but I do think it's going nowhere useful or helpful.

I hope that you will look at more runtime graphs and do a little more reading and thinking about cells and voltage converters.

Perhaps you will eventually change your concept of "regulation" but I'm done with trying to persuade you of the illogic and inconsistency of your concept.

.
 
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ringzero

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If there's any light out there that should be justified in calling itself completely legitimately fully regulated it's the Surefire A2 Aviator. 80 lumen's of steady output for approx 50 min from an incandescent lamp using 2 measly CR123's? If that's not regulation then I don't know what is. I'll admit my technical knowledge isn't as good as many here, but with the aviator, I think there's alot more going on there than just a relatively flat output over the duration of the battery life.


There's an excellent thread somewhere on CPF that provides an in depth analysis of the Aviator.

Has lots of pics and explains how its electronics works to keep the incan output ruler flat for the whole runtime. Oddly enough its LED output decays over the runtime, IIRC.

Very unusual for a production incan, although there is another companny that makes a variety of incan lights including a headlamp with completely flat outputs while running on alkaline cells. They also make a multi-AA drop in battery module that'll provide a flat output for a 2D incan light of your choice.

.
 

robostudent5000

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The reason I got involved in this discussion with you is because I think you were wrong in your scathing condemnation of Robin24K earlier in the thread.

With a concept as vague and elastic as "regulation" people may often disagree over applying the term to any given light. That is why I think your condemnation of Robin24K was out of line.

i didn't mean whatever i said to Robin to be "scathing". i was trying to clear up a point of confusion for the OP that was caused by something that Robin had written in a review.

Robin wrote,""All of the LED Maglites are regulated, which means that as the batteries are depleted and voltage drops, more current is drawn from the batteries to offset the lower voltage, resulting in consistent brightness until the batteries are completely depleted". and as both you and i can agree, i think, Mags do not have this capability.* he used the word "regulated" to describe a light that maintains "consistent brightness" as the "voltage drops", which is the same way i use the word, and the same way the OP used the word. so i thought it was safe to use the terms interchangeably, and also safe to let the OP know that what Robin had written was incorrect.

and when Robin replied and said that the Mag could still be "considered regulated", i disagreed with him, mainly because he had defined the word "regulated" fairly narrowly in his review, and was backing away from the definition he had already provided without really addressing the meat of the discussion, which is that Mags do not maintain brightness as battery voltage drops.

All I was trying to do was clear up a point of confusion for the OP caused by something that Robin had written. i wasn't trying to be malicious or scathing, and if it came across that way, i apologize.

No hard feelings on my end as I enjoyed our discussion, but I do think it's going nowhere useful or helpful.

I am glad that there are no hard feelings. and I mean that sincerely.

*Edit: it occurred to me later that you may actually believe that Maglites do maintain brightness as battery voltage drops. if you do, i didn't mean to be presumptuous in saying that you would agree that Mags do not maintain brightness as voltage drops.
 
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