Mag 6D mod: best runtime compromise question.

[Roland]

I own a maglite 6D which I want to do an hopefully easy mod on. I do not mind the weight and size of the 6D and it actually can come in handy. I want something that gives me the maximum amount of light (good throw) while:
- giving me a runtime of almost 2 hours (usable in one go)
- being reliable (it is not just a toy)
- letting me keep a adjustable beam with
- letting me use alkaline batteries (because of the shelf life for far over a year when not in use)

What are my options? I hope you guys have some advice for a newbie.

I know alkalines are not popular because the limited amps they can deliver and the diminished capacity at high currents. Duracell alkalines seem to be the only available D size batteries here. The Duracell graph (MN 1300 are alkaline D-cells) http://www.duracell.com/oem/Pdf/others/ATB-5.pdf claims that at just under 2 amps of current the alkaline D-cells would run almost 2 hours. And at room temperature or lower they are supposed to drop only 3% in power per year of storage. I do not know how this beautiful claim holds up in practice but it gives hope that there are possibilities. However there often is a big gap between manufacturer claims and reality and there is the resistance of the Mag itself to concider (I read about the resistance mods but have not done them yet).


I could postorder a maglite 6D xenon bulb which is supposed to be brighter than the standard krypton bulb but I do not know how much and hope there is something better around.
Also a FM throwmaster aluminium reflector might help to get more light where it is needed but that on itself might not be enough.
I read here that running a 5D (xenon?) bulb might be brighter in a 6D than a 6D (xenon?) bulb, but how much and is that reliable?
I read the ROP-Low is able to run on 6 D alkalines but I could find no runtime or performance indications for running it on alkalines.

Please consider that I read all I could find on this forum, am a newbie and could use all the advice you can give me.

 

[StarHalo]

You could replace your stock Mag bulb with one of these:

http://www.batteryjunction.com/tle-6k2.html

It's $23 and just screws right in to the socket, no replacing the reflector or "modding". It will be notably brighter on average than the stock bulb and more durable (LEDs don't blow or break), and will go *1+ day* before reaching 50% output (and still has more than another day to go after that.) Plus it runs off the standard batteries you already have.

 

[Gunner12]

Check this thread.

According to this chart(on this thread), the ROP-low draws 2.2v at 9v, but the batteries will probably sag in voltage at that current, and has an output of 960 lumen at the emitter. Voltage sag and losses included, you should get 400-500 lumen out the front.

Some LED lights smaller then the 2C Mag will match the 6D at least in throw.

:welcome:

 

[Monocrom]

Nothing says runtime like the Nite-ize LED upgrade kit.

Link ~ http://simplyflashlights.com/pro1118309.html

Note:
I do own two of the Nite-ize LED upgrades. But I have never ordered from the site in the link.

 

[SafetyBob]

I second the LED mod if you can handle it. An ROP would be very nice with a 6 D cell flashlight, but if you want incredible runtime, you need to find a driver board that can buck those 6 cells down for one nice Seoul P4 or perhaps a P7......

My four D cell flashlight with two almost dead NiMH batteries and two good batteries lasted 9 hours before it started to dim. I have been told I could get up to 20 hours based on the power of those rechargeables. Consider getting them if you can. They are worth it.

I know you are thinking you won't use the flashlight much because it will be for "emergencies" or something like that. Once you see an ROP powered for an hour or so (or the LED) you will start using it much more than you counted on.......not that it happened to me or anything!!

So let me recap. Go get the exnon (5D) if you can find it and try it. I think running any incan for the time you are talking about will generate enough heat you may want to get an aluminum reflector. Just don't be surprised if the reflector does start to melt....I would be surprised if it didn't. Try the ROP-low....I really like mine. Later if you want to play, try the LED thing or get a 4 D, a Micropuck, Seoul P4, and a heatsink and amaze yourself with a nice, bright, long lasting LED flashlight that will serve you very, very well on alkalines OR rechargeables.

Bob E.

 

[mdocod]

The Alkaline Ds are really the hold back of the whole design. If you must use them, you're best bet is either to stick with a stock or semi-stock flashlight bulb under 1A of power consumption. Or, install a LED conversion kit of sorts. An LED conversion would make much better use of available power from alkaline cells, as it would be buck regulated and maintain steady output through nearly the entire life of the cells.

There's really no such thing as a incandescent alkaline powered light that maintains a reasonably balanced level of light over the first 2 hours unless you were to really sacrifice and drop down to a very low powered bulb. A non-regulated alkaline driven bulb drawing ~1A will be less than half as bright after 2 hours of running than it was on fresh cells.

At a ~1A rate, a D size alkaline delivers around 6AH from 1.5V starting, considering it dead at 0.8V. It's a pretty steady line from that 1.5V down to 0.8V.
*This is based on test results generated by the hard work of CPF's beloved Silverfox The alkaline shootout can be found in the "batteries and electronics threads of interest" section.

Taking that into consideration, after 6-8 hours, it would be at 10% of it's initial output and still falling. At 0.8V per cell, a buck regulating LED drop-in would still be at full output. In fact, it would probably run for 15-30 hours at near full brightness depending on what conversion was used.

--------------------------------------------------

Now, if you are willing to use Low-Self-Discharge D cells, available with 10AH capacity, then you could make an ROP high with around 2 hours of runtime.

 

[SafetyBob]

Thanks for the info Mcomod, I started my 4 D M@g with a Cree Q5 in it driven by a 500mA Micropuck about 30 minutes ago. It is powered by alkalines while I get my 10,000mA D cells run through a few cycles.

I had forgot just how much that incan light really draws power, especially from alkalines. I was tempted to make an ROP out of a 6 D cell M@g, but what a monster that would be.....but for two hours of runtime....I might have to rethink that.

However, I remember you taking at length about the benefits of the lowly LED light months ago......how amazing that a little LED driven properly can give hours and hours of the same output of light. Isn't that the whole point to most of us using our flashlights? I mean, yes I have a M@g623 another M@g85 using Emoli batteries and other "WOW" lights in the building process now, but when I built these two single LED lights the other day, that was the point.....amazing light output from a small little thing for a long, long time. Just what you need when bad weather strikes or power outages occur.

Bob E.

 

[Roland]

Wow, thanks for all the the quick responces. I still have some questions though.

According to http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=116274 The Nite-ize LED upgrade is not up for the task. It says: "The Maglight was the only one that could focus the output into something even remotely useful. Nowhere as much punch or power as the stock incandescent though."

I managed to get the following brightness claims from manufacturers:
150+.. The TerraLUX TLE-6EX MiniStar5 SSC P4 U bin LED upgrade for 4-6 C/D cell Maglites. Looks simple to use, is "estimated to output 150+ lumens at the emitter" with a runtime of 20 hours and a claimed bulb life of 50.000 hours.
162 ... Mag 6D White Star Krypton LWSA601 bulb 162,6 average lumens
233 ... Mag 6D Mag-num Star Xenon LMSA601 bulb 233,5 average lumens
? ...... What could be expected of a Mag 5D Mag-num Star Xenon LMSA601 bulb of standard 181 lumens on 5D cells overdriven on 6 D-cells?
? ...... Rop low on alkalines? 400-500 lumen out the front sounds fantastic.

How will these claimed outputs compare in reality on 6D alkalines over the first 1,5 hours?
Will a 5C/D xenon bulb overdriven on 6D easily POOF on new batteries or still have a decent bulb life?
How will the Terralux led throw compared at 60 meters/ 200 feet?
@ safetybob: is the seoul P4 the same as the TerraLUX TLE-6EX MiniStar5 SSC P4 U bin LED upgrade for 4-6 C/D cell Maglites?
@ safetybob: A Seoul P7 sounds more powerfull than a P4. I red that the P7 can draw up to 3,5 amps which is a bit high for alkalines. Could it be driven on 6D cells for up to 2 hours? Does one have to solder oneself or can this be bought somewhere as a drop-in?
@ mdocod: do you know of alternative bulbs "at a ~1A rate" that will still run brighter than a stock xenon bulb after 1,5 hours?

 

[StarHalo]

150+.. The TerraLUX TLE-6EX MiniStar5 SSC P4 U bin LED upgrade for 4-6 C/D cell Maglites. Looks simple to use, is "estimated to output 150+ lumens at the emitter" with a runtime of 20 hours and a claimed bulb life of 50.000 hours.
162 ... Mag 6D White Star Krypton LWSA601 bulb 162,6 average lumens
233 ... Mag 6D Mag-num Star Xenon LMSA601 bulb 233,5 average lumens

Good to see you've done your homework on the various bulb outputs, but you're missing a detail - output regulation. The Mag-num Star bulb is indeed 233 lumens (at the bulb) but *only immediately after you install the batteries*; the output of the bulb falls extremely fast as the runtime progresses. The best example is the runtime test done on a standard 3D Mag at Flashlightreviews.com - after only one hour of runtime, the flashlight had already fallen to 50% of it's output, and the slow decline after that averaged closer to the 25% mark (see it here: http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/maglite_3d.htm).

This means you can expect a 6D Mag that starts at 233 lumens to *average about 120 lumens* for the usable life of the batteries and always in a steady decline.

Why would the TerraLUX do any better? Because it uses active circuitry to regulate the amount of power coming into the emitter, which means you get a remarkably long runtime with steady and even output. Going by BatteryJunction's own tests, the TerraLUX will put out roughly 150 lumens (again, at the bulb) for *20 hours*, with no variation in output. The brightness you see the first moment you install the batteries will be exactly the same as the brightness 20 hours later. (You note the runtime is 20 hours, but that's only the runtime before the output begins to dim, the runtime to 50% is ~30 hours, and total runtime somewhere over 50 hours, or 2+ days...)

So the Mag-num star would be brighter than the TerraLUX, but only at the very start of the battery life. As the Mag-num declines, the TerraLUX remains rock-steady at the same output, for much longer. If the batteries in your 6D have even moderate use on them, then the TerraLUX will be notably brighter for you.

EDIT: I just noticed that BatteryJunction's test was done on a 4D, not a 6D, so the TerraLUX runtimes would actually be quite a bit longer. I'd wager on six cells it'd probably total close to 80 hours.

 

[Roland]

StarHalo I did not know this and that shows the value of practical experience over bold manufacturer claims. It is misleading that Maglite publishes lumens which it measures during the first few minutes of fresh batteries as "average" lumens and does not take a reasonable runtime for its measurements.

That graph would mean that within half an hour the 150 lumens led would produce more lumens than the 6D Mag-num Star Xenon LMSA601 233,5 "average" lumens bulb.

According to the forum output lumens are supposed to be 65% of bulb lumens. If the ROP-low therefore would drop below 25% of its output near 2 hours of use it could be a alternative for the LED with a much higher startout lumens output. Does anyone know runtimes of a 6D alkaline ROP-Low?

A 150 lumens LED runtime of 80 hours makes me wonder if there is a brighter LED drop in with a higher output and shorter runtime that is able to throw well on alkalines. On http://www.malkoffdevices.com/shop2/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_2&products_id=1 I just saw a Malkoff Drop-In Module for 4-5-6 D-Cell to fit Mag-Lite. It has no adjustable beam anymore but it makes me wonder if there are other similar powerfull dropins. It claims 240 lumens at 1100ma on 4, 5 or 6 D cells and a runtime of over 8+ hours on 4D alkaline cells.

 

[2xTrinity]

A 150 lumens LED runtime of 80 hours makes me wonder if there is a brighter LED drop in with a higher output and shorter runtime that is able to throw well on alkalines. On http://www.malkoffdevices.com/shop2/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_2&products_id=1 I just saw a Malkoff Drop-In Module for 4-5-6 D-Cell to fit Mag-Lite. It has no adjustable beam anymore but it makes me wonder if there are other similar powerfull dropins. It claims 240 lumens at 1100ma on 4, 5 or 6 D cells and a runtime of over 8+ hours on 4D alkaline cells.

Though pricy, The Malkoff will be by far your best off-the-shelf upgrade for running on alkalines, if it weren't sold out...

Note, I think you're a bit confused in a few cases when talking about Current. 1100mA is current delivered to the LED, and that's only going to be at about 3.6V. That board contains a very efficient stepdown driver, so in reality it will draw roughly like 600mA @ 7.2V or so from your 6 D cells. The same is true if you were to mod in a P7 running at 2.5A, that would only require about 1.4A from the cells assuming you can find a driver to handle that (I don't know of one rated to operate at that current, unfortunately).

Anyway, if you can get a hold of one (perhaps in the B/S/T forum) I'd recmmend the Malkoff, it will give you output greater than the stock mag with fresh batteries, but with regulated output (no decline) and extremely long runtime (~15 Hrs).

Also, with LED mods, you'll find focusability isn't as necessary -- with incan beams, there is not a lot of spill, so if you need to see something up close, you will want to defocus the beam. The Malkoff however (from experience) has enough spill that you can still work up close without changing the beam. And you still can de-focus by unscrewing the head, you just lose the (arguably unnecessary) cam mechanism for doing so, so it's slower.

According to the forum output lumens are supposed to be 65% of bulb lumens. If the ROP-low therefore would drop below 25% of its output near 2 hours of use it could be a alternative for the LED with a much higher startout lumens output. Does anyone know runtimes of a 6D alkaline ROP-Low?

The 66% rule is strictly for incandescents. The reason from what I understand is that the reflector coating is about 70% efficient. Most of the light bounces off that coating in an incan, and some of it disappears down the "hole" in the base of the reflector, or gets absorbed by the bezel.

Loss for most LEDs is around 20%, as opposed to 34%, because there is no hole in the bottom for light to disappear through, and less strikes the reflector -- with LEDs you end up with much brighter spill as they emit light only forward about ~150 degrees, as opposed to 360 degrees. Also, with a TIR optic, LEDs flashlights can convert over 90% of bulb lumens into torch lumens.

 

[wildstar87]

This mod wouldn't be that hard to do. Unless you want to keep the 6D stock..

DHS Heatsink, SSC P4 LED
CCxW Buck driver (from TaskLED)

That would be brighter than the TLE-6EX, give you good long runtime, still keep the alkalines.

Yeah it involves some soldering, and cutting the plastic cam off the reflector, but it's really not difficult at all IMO. Still focusable as well.

There are a few guides to modding mags for LEDs using basically these parts on the forum.

 

[StarHalo]

A 150 lumens LED runtime of 80 hours makes me wonder if there is a brighter LED drop in with a higher output and shorter runtime that is able to throw well on alkalines.

If you're willing to make a *big* trade in runtime for lumens, there's the drop-in that I use in my Mag, the TerraLUX TLE-300; ~550 lumens at the emitter for about 2 hours in a 6D Mag.

http://www.batteryjunction.com/tle-300.html

It's essentially just three LEDs, each with its own optic, all in a self-contained drop-in puck with all the necessary circuitry. Again, minimal difficulty install, it just sits in the Mag socket but with this one you remove the stock reflector.

Optic lenses mean *serious throw* and the TLE-300 doesn't disappoint, projecting a big fat hotspot with no corona or spill to speak of. You lose the Mag's focusing ability, but when you've got a glaring hotspot that's over two feet across from only ten feet away, you don't need it. The only con is that the hotspot looks a bit like a round, multi-pointed star (the optics to some degree project the square shape of the LEDs) but in normal use, especially outdoors, you don't notice it.

The TLE-300 is my fave Mag drop-in based on its ease of install, use of standard batteries, and good old "damn that's bright"-ness. I've always liked the idea of an LED ROP that doesn't require any modding, and this certainly fills the bill.

 

[mdocod]

162 ... Mag 6D White Star Krypton LWSA601 bulb 162,6 average lumens
233 ... Mag 6D Mag-num Star Xenon LMSA601 bulb 233,5 average lumens
? ...... What could be expected of a Mag 5D Mag-num Star Xenon LMSA601 bulb of standard 181 lumens on 5D cells overdriven on 6 D-cells?
? ...... Rop low on alkalines? 400-500 lumen out the front sounds fantastic.

On paper, the "181" claimed lumens becomes ~325 lumens. Keeping in mind, these need to be converted to torch lumens to mean something practical, becomes about 210 torch lumens, but keep in mind that on alkalines, fresh out of the package, the 5 cell bulb is going to be very prone to premature failures. Using 6 NIMH cells here would offer less possibility of instaflash and better runtime performance, but bulb life would still be low. The ROP low is better suited to survive 6 cells than the 5 cell mag bulbs, but in order to run worth a darn will require NIMH cells.

The PROBLEM with me quoting lumens for these configurations, is that, on alkalines, the "rated" lumens mag gives you are based on FRESH cells that have just been taken out of the package. After just a few minutes these numbers are SUBSTANTIALLY lower. To be accurate, I would have to give you either an "average" output over some amount of time, or a beginning and ending value for the expected run. When you start seeing how RAPIDLY an alkaline driven incan drops off in output, the steady hundred or so lumens from a drop-in starts to look really good.

The terralux isn't bad, but if I had to do it over again I would look at some other solution with better heat sinking, as the terralux isn't as bright as the emitter is capable of, and tends to be more blue shifted in use from a lack of proper heat sinking.

@ mdocod: do you know of alternative bulbs "at a ~1A rate" that will still run brighter than a stock xenon bulb after 1,5 hours?

I'll get back to you on this one a little later, I need to run to the grocery store, wife is about to beat me over the head if I don't get away from this computer.

 

[jcvjcvjcvjcv]

I don't know about the Mag Xenons, but I blew a set of 5D Krypton bulbs on six GP 1300 / 1600 mAh AA's in a self-built adapter. The bulbs went before the batteries were empty :sigh:

 

[StarHalo]

I blew a set of 5D Krypton bulbs on six GP 1300 / 1600 mAh AA's

NiMH cells don't sag like alkalines under heavy drain; 5D alkalines in a stock Mag probably sag to well under 7 volts, whereas if your adapter is a good one/low resistance, can easily be 7.5 volts for quite some time on a freshly charged set of NiMHs.

It's a good idea on paper, but Mag bulbs really aren't meant for anything other than alkaline batteries and their specific output.

 

[Roland]

Thanks for al the good input. I did not think that going a bit brighter and having decent throw on alkaline D6 would be difficult.

I noticed there is lots to learn about flashlights. I therefore want something easy without soldering untill I know more about it or I find someone who sells me something. I think therefore my best options in order of maximum brightness are:

150+ .... TerraLUX TLE-6EX MiniStar5 SSC P4 U bin LED upgrade for 4-6 C/D cell Maglites. Not super bright but brighter than a standard xenon bulb within half an hour of use.
181 ~ ~ After some minutes of battery use switching to a Mag 5D Mag-num Star Xenon LMSA601 bulb of standard 181 lumens on 5D cells overdriven on 6 D-cells. Big chance of bulb failure when I need the light but cheap and bright.
240 ..... Malkoff Drop-In Module for 4-5-6 D-Cell to fit Mag-Lite. No focussing and hard to get hold of but bright and very good runtime.
500 ..... TLE-300. No focussing, a weird spot form and not cheap but bright and still a runtime of possibly up to 2 hours.
500 ~ ~ Rop low on alkalines? 400-500 lumen out the front at the start sounds fantastic. But I am still not shure how long this one would last on 6D alkalines. Will it manage to run 1,5 or 2 hours on 6Dalkalines ending at something like 25% output (100 lumen?)
Or is there more?

Untill now I think my best choice might be a secondhand Malkoff Drop-In Module for 4-5-6 D-Cell or the TLE-300, despite the absence of a focussable beam. Or maybe the ROP-low and a aluminium reflector and boroflow lens as a alternative.

I could not find information on the following. Does anyone know an answer:

The TLE-300 claims APPROXIMATELY 1-2 HOUR RUN TIME WITH 4 ALKALINE D-CELLS. (source: http://www.ledsupply.com/docs/TLE-300M.pdf ) Does anyone know how long it might really run on 6D alkalines?

Does anyone know how a ROP-Low performs after 1,5 or 2 hours on 6D alkalines? Is there still some light left by then and how much?

 

[Gunner12]

You can focus the light with the Malkoff drop-in(well, you can with the 1 Seoul one).

You'll be unscrewing the head and moving the reflector with it, which will cause the light to defocus.

 

[Roland]

@ gunner 12: that sounds as a nice alternative, though a bit rudimentary compared with the standard mag focussing.

I found something to estimate runtime of the TLE-300 which consumes 12 watts. Thanks to Alan B post #48 in http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=183679&page=2

I altered his numbers (hope I did it right) for duracell alkaline 6D ( http://www.duracell.com/oem/Pdf/others/ATB-5.pdf ) to:
1.2Vavg * 15AH * 6 = 108 watt-hours at low current
108/12 = 9 hours BUT this must be derated for the high current
Alkaline does very poorly at high current
1.2V * 6 = 7,2V
12W / 7,2V = 1,67A current drain
at that current drain the capacity will be reduced by approximately half
so estimated runtime 4,5 hours,

According to Figure 3 from http://www.duracell.com/oem/Pdf/others/ATB-5.pdf 1,67A on a alkaline D cell (=MN1300) should give a runtime of about 4 hours.

According to me that would make the runtimes on 6D alkalines (hope this helps others to make a choice too):
claimed 150 lux .. 80 hours .................... TerraLUX TLE-6EX MiniStar5 SSC P4 U bin LED upgrade for 4-6 C/D cell Maglites
claimed 240 lux... 8+ hours on 4 D Cells ... (Due to unknown wattage I do not know how to calculate this one to 6D) Malkoff Drop-In Module for 4-5-6 D-Cell to fit Mag-Lite
claimed 500 lux .. 4 hours ...................... TLE-300
ROP-Low ???? (anyone know this?)

 

[FredM]

ROP-Low ???? (anyone know this?)

Alks will not hold constant voltage even with the low draw bulbs of the stock maglite.

There is not way it will hold a 11W bulb for any length of time at a decent voltage.