Master thread for disasters and generators.

[idleprocess]

Could a 240 Volt construction type generator power some of the pumps? I don't have an understanding of 2 and 3 phase power.

Can't speak to 3-phase power, but I've got a layman's understanding of residential split-phase (read: 2-phase) power. Split phase is something generally unique to North America. With three wires one can produce two 120V phases or a single 240 phase - this works because the two 120V phases are 180° out of phase. Here's an illustration of the common 14-50 120V/240V outlet:

• X-N: 120V
• Y-N: 120V
• X-Y: 240V

There's not really a neutral for 240V split-phase, but since there is a 240V delta between the two phases it's effectively the same for loads. A neutral wire is run as a matter of course since 120V control electronics are stupid commonplace.

The closely-related 14-20, 14-30, 14-50 outlets common on 120V/240V portable generators can supply either voltage right out of the box and doesn't care how you draw from it until you overload the rating. You can buy cables that passively convert to common 120V 5-15/5-20 receptacles.

Anyway, as I believe you're already familiar, the busbars on breaker panels are neatly divided into alternating phases - a singlewide breaker is 120V to neutral while a doublewide breaker is 240V between poles.

 

[idleprocess]

In other related news waiting on a final commitment from an electrician to get that interlock and inlet installed. Hopefully sometime this month.

Harbor Freight is opening a new location in town Real Soon Now™. Maybe they'll do some grand opening special and I'll take another long hard look at the Predator 3500.

 

[Lynx_Arc]

In other related news waiting on a final commitment from an electrician to get that interlock and inlet installed. Hopefully sometime this month.

Harbor Freight is opening a new location in town Real Soon Now™. Maybe they'll do some grand opening special and I'll take another long hard look at the Predator 3500.

I don't recall any grand opening specials here but may have missed it as I was driving in the south shopping corridor and there was a new HF store there that I think was once a dollar store or something like that. We now have 3 now in the metropolitan area.

 

[Poppy]

If we were playing an episode of the "Walking Dead" how difficult would it be to power a couple of pumps at a service station to get some fuel?

If the pumps are 120V, all I'd have to do is to back feed one leg of the panel with 120V, if that didn't work, then back feed the other leg.

OTOH, if the pumps are 240V I'd have to back feed the panel with 240V.

Right?

Do they typically use 120V or 240V for the pump motors?

 

[idleprocess]

Do they typically use 120V or 240V for the pump motors?

A very hasty search turns up the following PDF, suggesting that the answer is "it's complicated".

 

[Chauncey Gardiner]

If we were playing an episode of the "Walking Dead" how difficult would it be to power a couple of pumps at a service station to get some fuel?

If the pumps are 120V, all I'd have to do is to back feed one leg of the panel with 120V, if that didn't work .........

 

[Poppy]

Not long ago they opened a new Harbor Freight nearer to me. They didn't run any specials for the 3500 inverter generator, nor for the 2000 watt inverter gennie. Before they changed to there membership plan they fairly regularly ran a $50 coupon for one or the other. I don't think I have seen one since. Once as a member only.

 

[Poppy]

A very hasty search turns up the following PDF, suggesting that the answer is "it's complicated".

Hmm, not really complicated. Some motors are 110-120 others 220-240, and some 120/240, all single phase.

There are some 330V 3 phase NOT UL Approved. I doubt they'll be used.

The motors are 3/4 HP or about 600 watts. Some pumps will supply one hose or two. From what I read earlier a 3/4 HP pump will supply 30 gallons per minute but the US limits the out put to 10 Gallons per minute. Therefore one pump can easily supply two hoses.

 

[Lynx_Arc]

Hmm, not really complicated. Some motors are 110-120 others 220-240, and some 120/240, all single phase.

There are some 330V 3 phase NOT UL Approved. I doubt they'll be used.

The motors are 3/4 HP or about 600 watts. Some pumps will supply one hose or two. From what I read earlier a 3/4 HP pump will supply 30 gallons per minute but the US limits the out put to 10 Gallons per minute. Therefore one pump can easily supply two hoses.

That makes sense as when I'm at a pump I can feel my line jump when the other guys hose shuts off with a clunk

 

[idleprocess]

Hmm, not really complicated. Some motors are 110-120 others 220-240, and some 120/240, all single phase.

There are some 330V 3 phase NOT UL Approved. I doubt they'll be used.

The motors are 3/4 HP or about 600 watts. Some pumps will supply one hose or two. From what I read earlier a 3/4 HP pump will supply 30 gallons per minute but the US limits the out put to 10 Gallons per minute. Therefore one pump can easily supply two hoses.

I couldn't find a spec sheet listing power requirements on their far more common pump with integrated billing - the Encore 700, which may have different power requirements. The 380V variants were a bit odd although that may correspond with outdoor lighting circuits or another common deployment.

 

[Poppy]

idleprocess,
Thankyou for your diligence in researching info.
:thumbsup:

Time for me to check out on the East coast.
Have a good night.
Poppy

 

[Poppy]

Hmmm, so it looks like one not only has to power the pumps, but the computer system for the POS, because there are controllers that inhibit tampering.

 

[LEDphile]

The 380V variants were a bit odd although that may correspond with outdoor lighting circuits or another common deployment.

380V is the line-to-line voltage in a 3-phase Y system that has 220V phase to earth. So intended for places that use 220V and have 3-phase power available (and I'll bet they are 50Hz units as well).

 

[Lynx_Arc]

You also need heat and air too as computers don't like excessive heat and it is hard to run a touch screen register when it is ice cold indoors plus you need lights to see things in the stores as convenience stores make a lot of money with highly marked up consumables.

 

[Poppy]

I'm not concerned with running the convenience store, I don't own one, or for that matter any one who does.

I'm thinking along the lines that if there was a major disruption to the electrical grid, and people were instructed to get out of Dodge, in a large expansive area. There may be gas stations with fuel in their tanks, and no electricity to pump them out. In the meantime, people leaving Dodge may run out of gas (because gas stations along their route can't pump without electricity). I saw that happen during Superstorm Sandy.

I am wondering that if I have my inverter generator with me, and am running out of gas, would I be able to power up a section of a gas station for a few hours, and let him pump fuel to myself, and others in need. My inverter is only 120V, but I am thinking that considering that electronics are involved with modern, credit card pumps, that clean electricity may be important.

 

[Lynx_Arc]

I'm not concerned with running the convenience store, I don't own one, or for that matter any one who does.

I'm thinking along the lines that if there was a major disruption to the electrical grid, and people were instructed to get out of Dodge, in a large expansive area. There may be gas stations with fuel in their tanks, and no electricity to pump them out. In the meantime, people leaving Dodge may run out of gas (because gas stations along their route can't pump without electricity). I saw that happen during Superstorm Sandy.

I am wondering that if I have my inverter generator with me, and am running out of gas, would I be able to power up a section of a gas station for a few hours, and let him pump fuel to myself, and others in need. My inverter is only 120V, but I am thinking that considering that electronics are involved with modern, credit card pumps, that clean electricity may be important.

The problem here is most of the gas stations are run by convenience store chains. I will say that gas stations don't need people to be there for the pumps to work though as we have a station that you can buy gas with a credit card 24 hours a day there and the owner is not there after working hours.

 

[Poppy]

The problem here is most of the gas stations are run by convenience store chains.

Why is that a problem?

 

[idleprocess]

Why is that a problem?

I imagine that the typical networked integrated-payment fuel pump has a long and tenuous chain of permissions involved in getting it to "cold start". One could probably open the thing up and force it to pump gas (after some trial-and-error, with access to a tech manual the station operator likely doesn't have) - albeit likely without its cooperation thus metering and safety features may not function.

 

[BVH]

The vast majority of "pumps" on the islands these days are dispensers, and do not contain the pump. Modern stations have turbine pumps submerged in the tanks or in the large manways that supply multiple dispensers.

 

[KITROBASKIN]

Thanks to all of you for allowing us to gain knowledge in this subject matter.

Years ago drove into a Shell gas station but could not get fuel. Power was on but the explanation was that the problem was off site, and that no gas could be sold. I asked if it was a credit card thing and the answer was no. Some kind of glitch in dispensing protocol?

Seems like using the existing gas pumps is problematic. What about opening up the underground tank refuel port, and with a simple pump powered by a generator, get on with it?