More EV negatives

[Toulouse42]

That surprises me. Any time I've been to Europe, the cars were notably smaller, but it's been a while. The image of a Tahoe on the streets of London is almost comical. It seems the big vehicle thing has been a growing problem for Europe. Had no idea. Shrinking vehicles would be a welcome trend. Here and abroad.

Hi. Yes, big cars are sold over here but common sense applies and most of us buy smaller vehicles. Jeremy Clarkson, a motoring journalist, once drove a Hummer through London and just got stuck. Here, a Range Rover is big but after driving in the USA for a few days, they look quite small to me. Length is not such a great problem as width. All cars are getting wider but roads and parking spaces are not. We have an extra problem over here. I have observed that many times, the second or family vehicle is a tall 4x4 or a station wagon, and many mothers seem intimidated by the size and consequently have trouble manoeuvering and parking. Ironically and far worse, often these vehicles seem poorly maintained. If everyone I love is in a car, I'm going to make d*** sure that its well maintained.

 

[bykfixer]

No, no, no. You guys make it politics. I am just telling you what is going to happen based on my research. Believe it or stuff it. You guys should do your own research. When I say kicking and screaming, it is market forces that will cause this boo hooing. Unless you are saying Beta tape, Kodak's failure and BlackBerry and Nokia's demise was political. Where's your 8track? It was economics. All products get better faster and cheaper, one way or another. Electric cars are better and faster. Cheaper to come....here comes the Chinese and Tesla. Ford, GM and Toyota... bankruptcy because they can't turn their large ships fast enough. Model Y's battery is $5,500.00. That battery could go in any car. Think of it this way. The battery is the motor. The motor and gear reduction is the transmission. What's an engine replacement cost these days?.

- Kodak still makes cameras. And film. I still use film some. I prefer Fuji. Yes kodachrome is gone.
- Beta never really caught on.
- Blackberry was a fad.
- Nokia still sells phones
- 8 track was flawed since it changed tracks mid-song and replaced by the cassette. Reel to reel was better and is still used by some purists along with tube equipment.

And I DO NOT want to drive a chinese made car. The US market does not want EV's anymore than they wanted the metric system. But a certain group insists we have them anyway. If/when the EV is more mature perhaps the US will flock to them like they eventually did with the horseless carriage.

 

[Monocrom]

Model Y battery is $5,500.00. what's an engine replacement?

Why are you comparing an engine to a battery? Both EVs and ICE vehicles have batteries inside of them. Also, on an engine, you can have a mechanic repair or replace one tiny part (such as I did last week regarding the purge valve), and the cost to the customer is very little. In my case, $90.oo + Labor. Doesn't take an hour to replace that valve but they charged by the hour. So, $110.oo for labor. = $200.oo

Considerably less expensive than $5,500.oo for one battery swap on a Tesla or $60,000.oo on a KIA or Hyundai EV.

Unlike the battery in an EV, I didn't need the entire engine swapped out of my nearly 20 year-old ICE sedan. Just needed a tiny section of it worked on. Can't do that with an EV's battery. And let's not forget there's no way in hell an original battery that came with the purchase of an EV (even a Tesla) is going to last nearly 20 years of normal driving, with the vehicle's owner taking care of it through routine maintenance.

I mean it amazes me that EV advocates point to zero routine maintenance as somehow being a good thing. It's not! I bought from a brand that has a reputation for reliability as good as Toyota's. But at the time, the word hadn't gone out much about that. So prices for a new car weren't at Toyota levels. I've spent the last nearly 20 years carefully maintaining her. Doing routine maintenance is why my car starts every single time I put the key into the ignition.

Compare that with my dad's 1981 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme he bought in 1982 from a businessman who bought a new car every single year (leasing did not exist back then). He put gas in it and a quart of oil. He literally never took it to an Oldsmobile dealership for scheduled maintenance in the 17 years he owned it. My Mazda 6 is right around the same age now his Olds was back then when she finally died. One, GM knew how to make quality cars back then. It's a miracle it lasted as long as she did with my dad neglecting her. Two, the last 5 years; she'd start up. But oh! You better make damn sure you spent the next 15 minutes warming up that engine! Otherwise in a few minutes, you realistically risked the entire car shutting off on you in about half a second! Oh, you just entered the Expressway? Too bad....

Growing up, I had no clue that you don't put oil into a car as often as you put in gasoline. Oil leak in the engine that just got worse! Dad never had it fixed! Grew up, I drove her. I remember the night she died and left me stranded. Didn't blame her! Blamed my dad! Confronted him on his disgusting cheapness. That was not a fun night. Later, he was the one who brought up the idea of an engine swap with a re-built engine. Mom had enough and verbally let him have it!

Guys like my dad need engine swaps. Guys like I, don't.

Maintain your car, take care of it. In most parts of America a car is very much a necessity. No scheduled routine maintenance on an EV is a moronically ridiculous disadvantage. And, I just showed why. Or, are we going to pretend that EVs have no parts at all inside of them that wear out over time?

Edit: Clarification.

 

[mrfixitman]

I'm in the UK. In our household we have 4 cars with an average age of 28 years. All give reliable and economic running and can be relied upon to do long journeys with ease. One was £50 in 1999 and another free in 1995. So wanting an expensive EV is so far away from what we are enjoying it's unreal. I think half the problem is that ICE vehicles from the last 15 years or so are designed to be disposable so consumers are used to regular spending one way or another so an EV with maybe less spending is a pleasant change.

Customers who look for technology over longevity will see an EV a good thing. I'm probably a minority but I'm contented with a simple cassette deck, a simple engine and cars simple enough to fix myself with low cost parts as required (not often).

I ABSOLUTELY don't need high performance as even 44 bhp is enough to keep up with the traffic. I don't care for silence as the engine's smooth sound is nice (4 cylinder ohv) and filling up at my local petrol station is a joy with a chance to chat as the owner fills up my car and I always leave feeling better.

In the UK the roads are pretty narrow with small parking spaces so with my car width of 63 inches it feels relaxing to drive and park. I don't see any EV with a width of that or smaller.

So nothing an EV offers is of any value to me.

Clean air is nothing?

It's quite valuable, which is why I drive an ICE.

My specific car, despite being a luxury barge, cradle-to-grave is more environmentally-friendly, including the gasoline it will burn, than an EV. Other cars might be too, but I only did the calculations for my car when I was deciding on getting an EV or having this car built.

Electricity in my area is 20% coal, 1% diesel/oil, 68% natural gas. <1% hydro, <1% solar/wind. My car would be charging at night, so 100% fossil fuel. Furthermore, my driving patterns would necessitate fast charging, which is even more inefficient than regular charging.

Furthermore, hurricanes and power interruptions are common in my area. My home ran on a large diesel generator for 110+ days, 24/7 straight after Hurricane Ian. It's easy and quick to move diesel and gasoline. Not so much to move electricity.

What may be true for you and 1% of the population is not true for everyone. Things change. Renewables are catching on. Texas being the biggest. Even bigger than California. Because they did the math and they want to make money. In the big winter blackout it was the natural gas that failed. Not the renewables. On average it is better to go electric and renewables. Don't forget electricity is the easiest to transport. It goes the speed of light and is EVerywhere. You have to go shopping for gasoline or diesel and pay the man. Renewables will only grow. As restrictions and tougher clean air laws come into effect, it's inevitable. So you can swirl your misconceptions and all agree with each other. I have said my piece, now let the future come as it may.

 

[mrfixitman]

- Kodak still makes cameras. And film. I still use film some. I prefer Fuji. Yes kodachrome is gone.
- Beta never really caught on.
- Blackberry was a fad.
- Nokia still sells phones
- 8 track was flawed since it changed tracks mid-song and replaced by the cassette. Reel to reel was better and is still used by some purists along with tube equipment.

And I DO NOT want to drive a chinese made car. The US market does not want EV's anymore than they wanted the metric system. But a certain group insists we have them anyway. If/when the EV is more mature perhaps the US will flock to them like they eventually did with the horseless carriage.

I still say people will flock to them, when it benefits them financially. Cheaper always wins....but not always. Explain why the Model Y is the best selling car in the world? Could it be some perceived value? My brother is as conservative as they come. He lives in a hot place. Got solar to pay for air-conditioning. Still playing $160 a month. Just got a Tesla battery. Zero out is the goal. Now considering electric transportation, because of the ability to manage energy production taking it away from Exxon and the Saudis.

 

[Mister Ed]

I mean, ICE engines are stable and proven tech. EVs simply aren't there yet, IMO.

I think hydrogen makes more sense. Toyota and GM are betting big on it, so take that for whatever it's worth.

 

[jabe1]

I think hydrogen makes more sense. Toyota and GM are betting big on it, so take that for whatever it's worth.

Despite the better than eight decades that have passed, people still think of the Hindenburg disaster when you mention hydrogen.
Hydrogen fuel cells make sense, just the propensity for leaks is a serious concern.

 

[Monocrom]

I mean, ICE engines are stable and proven tech. EVs simply aren't there yet, IMO.

I think hydrogen makes more sense. Toyota and GM are betting big on it, so take that for whatever it's worth.

Exactly! Thank you!
The tech. is too new. Not even remotely where it needs to be to be a good replacement for ICE vehicles. Honestly, everyone I know in real life who has an EV or is seriously in the process of acquiring one within the next year. All of those handful of individuals are married, and all of their spouses own an ICE vehicle. Which they have no intention of giving up. None!

Even my best friend of over 30 years who is a HUGE advocate of EVs, even he and his wife have zero intentions of selling off her Subaru Legacy sedan when he gets out of his lease at the end of the year. And, gives back his Chevy Equinox and then is going to get an EV Chevy Bolt that he has been researching and lusting over for the last three years. Deep down inside, I think even hardcore EV advocates know there are serious issues with them, but refuse to openly admit it.

 

[Mister Ed]

I have a few friends that drive Model 3's; I've ridden in them and seen the summons feature - it's neat.
They also own, in comparison, an F250, and the other has a Model S mini Cooper. So maybe there are things EV's can do quite yet.

What I love is the competition and the ability to choose. We all love clean air - skip all the supped-up motors; I like naturally aspirated engines. Heck, I would love if we had some of the diesels that Europe has to offer here.

I think folks in this thread have forgotten the right to choose the best product for your situation.

 

[scalpel_ninja]

An instructor once told me:

"Never be the first to use a new medication and never be the last to use an old medication."

EV tech is likely the future. The rapid adoption of it and poorly-tested systems built around it is what disturbs me.

 

[Monocrom]

I'll just leave this here.
Matt is a good bloke.
He put in real effort to see what it's like to live with an EV:

 

[mrfixitman]

Why are you comparing an engine to a battery? Both EVs and ICE vehicles have batteries inside of them. Also, on an engine, you can have a mechanic repair or replace one tiny part (such as I did last week regarding the purge valve), and the cost to the customer is very little. In my case, $90.oo + Labor. Doesn't take an hour to replace that valve but they charged by the hour. So, $110.oo for labor. = $200.oo

Considerably less expensive than $5,500.oo for one battery swap on a Tesla or $60,000.oo on a KIA or Hyundai EV.

Unlike the battery in an EV, I didn't need the entire engine swapped out of my nearly 20 year-old ICE sedan. Just needed a tiny section of it worked on. Can't do that with an EV's battery. And let's not forget there's no way in hell an original battery that came with the purchase of an EV (even a Tesla) is going to last nearly 20 years of normal driving, with the vehicle's owner taking care of it through routine maintenance.

I mean it amazes me that EV advocates point to zero routine maintenance as somehow being a good thing. It's not! I bought from a brand that has a reputation for reliability as good as Toyota's. But at the time, the word hadn't gone out much about that. So prices for a new car weren't at Toyota levels. I've spent the last nearly 20 years carefully maintaining her. Doing routine maintenance is why my car starts every single time I put the key into the ignition.

Compare that with my dad's 1981 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme he bought in 1982 from a businessman who bought a new car every single year (leasing did not exist back then). He put gas in it and a quart of oil. He literally never took it to an Oldsmobile dealership for scheduled maintenance in the 17 years he owned it. My Mazda 6 is right around the same age now his Olds was back then when she finally died. One, GM knew how to make quality cars back then. It's a miracle it lasted as long as she did with my dad neglecting her. Two, the last 5 years; she'd start up. But oh! You better make damn sure you spent the next 15 minutes warming up that engine! Otherwise in a few minutes, you realistically risked the entire car shutting off on you in about half a second! Oh, you just entered the Expressway? Too bad....

Growing up, I had no clue that you don't put oil into a car as often as you put in gasoline. Oil leak in the engine that just got worse! Dad never had it fixed! Grew up, I drove her. I remember the night she died and left me stranded. Didn't blame her! Blamed my dad! Confronted him on his disgusting cheapness. That was not a fun night. Later, he was the one who brought up the idea of an engine swap with a re-built engine. Mom had enough and verbally let him have it!

Guys like my dad need engine swaps. Guys like I, don't.

Maintain your car, take care of it. In most parts of America a car is very much a necessity. No scheduled routine maintenance on an EV is a moronically ridiculous disadvantage. And, I just showed why. Or, are we going to pretend that EVs have no parts at all inside of them that wear out over time?

Edit: Clarification.

Wheel bearing, steering parts, possibly physical brakes, door handles, pivot points for doors, wiper blades. No oil changes, tuneups or smog tests. Never visit a gas station. Recalls are over the air. How much is your time worth?
Think about what makes torque. An EV battery has torque expressed by an electric motor which is a transmission of many speeds to a single gear ratio. ICE produces torque in a limited rpm range, thus needing a multigear transmission. That is why I think off a battery as the engine and an electric motor as a transmission that efficiently changes speed, unlike a torque converter which is comparably inefficient.

 

[Guitar Guy]

I think folks in this thread have forgotten the right to choose the best product for your situation.

Agreed. Competition keeps the free market in check. Capitalism fosters a free market, competition, and the right to choose. Socialism does not. It is not fair to subsidize one and price the other out of existence, eliminating people's ability to choose based on their own situation and budget.

 

[mrfixitman]

- Kodak still makes cameras. And film. I still use film some. I prefer Fuji. Yes kodachrome is gone.
- Beta never really caught on.
- Blackberry was a fad.
- Nokia still sells phones
- 8 track was flawed since it changed tracks mid-song and replaced by the cassette. Reel to reel was better and is still used by some purists along with tube equipment.

And I DO NOT want to drive a chinese made car. The US market does not want EV's anymore than they wanted the metric system. But a certain group insists we have them anyway. If/when the EV is more mature perhaps the US will flock to them like they eventually did with the horseless carriage.

There might not be a choice if air standards are to be met and Ford and GM and Toyota don't get their act together.

 

[Chauncey Gardiner]

I think it's foolishness to only concern yourself with a single issue, E.g. Air quality, while ignoring all the other environmental issues concerning the production of EVs?

This concern has been pointedly addressed many times in this thread and others.

 

[mrfixitman]

I'll just leave this here.
Matt is a good bloke.
He put in real effort to see what it's like to live with an EV:

This guy doesn't know how to drive an EV. Five minutes into the video you can see disaster coming.

 

[Monocrom]

Wheel bearing, steering parts, possibly physical brakes, door handles, pivot points for doors, wiper blades. No oil changes, tuneups or smog tests. Never visit a gas station. Recalls are over the air. How much is your time worth?
Think about what makes torque. An EV battery has torque expressed by an electric motor which is a transmission of many speeds to a single gear ratio. ICE produces torque in a limited rpm range, thus needing a multigear transmission. That is why I think off a battery as the engine and an electric motor as a transmission that efficiency changes speed, unlike a torque converter which is comparably inefficient.

So, we are pretending that an EV only has a battery, sheet-metal, and tires. No, that's not the case. Even an EV is going to have parts that wear out. And with no scheduled maintenance, good luck keeping an EV for 20 years of normal driving without getting hit by a bill so huge that the word "Obscene" would be completely appropriate.

My time is worth a great deal. I spent four months doing nothing to my car other than gassing her up before that unexpected 9 hour visit last Wednesday. Coming away with a $373.oo bill for replacement of the purge valve, State Emissions test, and new brake-light bulb. Spend four months of care-free driving. Get inconvenienced for one day, with a very reasonable repair bill. Honestly, that is a whole hell of a lot better than living with an EV that needs a new battery.

Or, are you really saying that getting hit with a replacement battery bill of anywhere from $12,000.oo for a Tesla (looked it up on my own, no clue where you got only $5,500.oo from but that's still a ridiculous out-of-pocket expense for an EV owner) to $60,000.oo for one on a KIA/Hyundai EV.... are you really saying that's far better than going in for routine scheduled maintenance? I'm not normally a betting man, but I'll wager my entire Life savings that no one would agree with you there.

Will admit, no EV owner is going to spend any amount of time (much less 9 hours) trying to raise the funds to cover that expense. So, you've got me there. That's one for you. Though that owner will be spending at least a couple of hours at a "Pre-owned" car lot negotiating for a good used ICE vehicle after he's forced to sign over the pink-slip on his EV since he obviously can't afford that repair bill. Or perhaps replacement bill for the battery is the correct term.

Yes, ICE vehicles have numerous little items on them that over the years might need repair or even replacement. No doubt there. No arguments from me on that issue that you brought up. And yes, going in to have your ICE vehicle serviced can be an all day thing. A very frustrating one for sure.... But my God! Doing that sure as hell is a much better experience than being handed a bill for $12K-$60K to replace a battery once every few years!! Are you kidding? Are you joking around? At the end of those 9 hours last Wednesday, I paid the man, got in my car with the very comfy driver's seat, drove to my favorite pizza place, then drove home, parked in my designated spot, went upstairs and enjoyed some sweet delicious New York pizza.

Here's what I didn't do.... I didn't sign over my EV to the man who owns the gas-station/garage and then sheepishly ask him to please call me a cab so I could go straight home, and then agonize over my decision for having bought the wrong type of vehicle because I don't have more money than my car is worth; for a replacement battery. That's what I didn't do. Yeah, no scheduled maintenance for a handful of years straight. Instead of only a handful of months. Tell me again how that's a good thing.

Edit: Typo.

 

[Monocrom]

This guy doesn't know how to drive an EV. Five minutes into the video you can see disaster coming.

Right.... Matt, a used car dealer who makes his living buying and selling all types of vehicles (including EVs) for the last several years, has no clue how to drive one. I'm curious. Please explain what Matt did wrong during his time trying to live with one. I'll email him, and ask him to do a part 2.

 

[Guitar Guy]

The US has improved its air quality in many ways since the 1960s and 1970s, including vehicle emissions - ways that many countries larger than the US have not. We should be hammering those countries before we flush our own economy down the toilet over "climate change" ... but further discussion and reasons can't be discussed here, so I'll leave it at that.

Why is the troll even still on here? Didn't he commit violations when manipulating quotes of others, or is everyone just enjoying watching him get proven wrong over and over?

 

[TPA]

Clean air is nothing?

It's quite valuable, which is why I drive an ICE.

My specific car, despite being a luxury barge, cradle-to-grave is more environmentally-friendly, including the gasoline it will burn, than an EV. Other cars might be too, but I only did the calculations for my car when I was deciding on getting an EV or having this car built.

Electricity in my area is 20% coal, 1% diesel/oil, 68% natural gas. <1% hydro, <1% solar/wind. My car would be charging at night, so 100% fossil fuel. Furthermore, my driving patterns would necessitate fast charging, which is even more inefficient than regular charging.

Furthermore, hurricanes and power interruptions are common in my area. My home ran on a large diesel generator for 110+ days, 24/7 straight after Hurricane Ian. It's easy and quick to move diesel and gasoline. Not so much to move electricity.