NiteCore Lumens Rating

[UnknownVT]

I have been aware of NiteCore's more conservative (lower) lumens rating since I did my review of the NDI (NiteCore Defender Infinity ).

NiteCore's own ratings of the NDI , D10 and EX10 (links to NoteCore's own pages) -
are all 130 lumens for both primary and Li-Ion rechargeables.

These seem very low on just reading the specs in comparison to other manufacturers' lights (rated with bulb lumens).

My understanding is that these are "torch" or "out of the front" lumens -
as opposed to the usual LED bulb/potential lumens -
this would seem very laudable and more honest.

However the Nitecore Extreme (NEX) -
is rated at 190 lumens on primary (CR123)

This should mean the Extreme on primary CR123 ought be noticably brighter than the NDI, D10 and EX10
even if the latter are on Li-Ion rechargeables.
Since that is a difference of 60 lumens - that's not insignificant (note: editted from: "huge").

But this is what I found with direct side-by-side beamshots

Extreme on Max primary CR123 (rated 190 lumens) -
vs. NiteCore Defender Infinity Max on Li-Ion 14500 (rated 130 lumens)

vs. NiteCore D10 Max on Li-Ion 14500 (rated 130 lumens)

vs. EX10 on Max - primary CR123 (rated 130 lumens)

These all look pretty comparable - I would say well within sample variations.

I have a high degree of confidence that the NiteCore Extreme I used for these is typical and not an extra low one - as I have 4 samples of the Extreme - and three were basically "the same" - please see -
NiteCore Extreme (NEX) Comparison Review.

For more discussion of this, please also see -

NiteCore Defender Infinity Comparison Review

NiteCore D10 Comparison Review

So which is right - 190 lumens or 130 lumens?
Remember these are NiteCore's own ratings.

 

[Jarl]

It's my understanding that 130 lumens is from a NiMH AA. I'd say it's fairly similar to high on an L2D with NiMH (rated 107 lumens), but noticeably brighter (potentially 190 torch lumens) with a 14500.

 

[UnknownVT]

It's my understanding that 130 lumens is from a NiMH AA. I'd say it's fairly similar to high on an L2D with NiMH (rated 107 lumens), but noticeably brighter (potentially 190 torch lumens) with a 14500.

I don't disagree with what you are trying to say -
BUT it is very clear on NiteCore' s own pages that the NDI , D10 and EX10 (links to NoteCore's own pages) are rated 130 lumens on BOTH Li-Ion and regular primary batteries (please click on the links and see for yourself).

NDI
" AA battery
Maximum output 130 lumens, for about 50 minutes (with brightness declines to 50%)
Li-ion Battery
Maximum output 130 lumens, for about 80 minutes (with brightness declines to 50%) "

D10
" AA battery
Maximum output 130 lumens, for about 50 minutes (with brightness declines to 50%)
Li-ion Battery
Maximum output 130 lumens, for about 80 minutes (with brightness declines to 50%) "

EX10
" CR123 battery
Maximum output 130 lumens, for about 90 minutes (with brightness declines to 50%)
Li-ion Battery
Maximum output 130 lumens, for about 80 minutes (with brightness declines to 50%) "

 

[Nos]

on the nitecore hp the EX10 and D10 are both rated 130 lumens out of the front (on Li-ion), however the Nex is rated 190 "whatever lumens" and they seem the same brightness

ermmmmmm....:shrug: i dont know either :thinking:

*edit*: nitecore know rates the Nex 200 lumens :thinking:

 

[UnknownVT]

*edit*: nitecore know rates the Nex 200 lumens :thinking:

That's on Li-Ion -
I have used the Extreme on primary CR123 (beacuse I feel they are more reliable and reproducible) this is rated at 190 lumens.

Nitecore Extreme (link to NiteCore's page) -

" CR123 battery
Maximum output 190 lumens, for about 75 minutes (with brightness declines to 50%)
Li-ion Battery
Maximum output 200 lumens, for about 50 minutes (with brightness declines to 50%) "

 

[Tohuwabohu]

So which is right - 190 lumens or 130 lumens?
Remember these are NiteCore's own ratings.

Judging from the runtime graphs in selfbuilt's NiteCore D10 & EX10 Reviews both values could be correct. Running on surefire CR123A's the Extreme is significantly brighter than the EX10.

 

[CM]

...
Since that is a difference of 60 lumens - that's huge...

Not really, if you think in relative terms. It's 46% brighter which is a very moderate 1.6 dB brighter.

Remember that it takes an order of magnitude increase for your eyes to perceive an apparent doubling in brightness. That means 10dB or a factor of 10. For example, if you want to perceive a doubling in brightness from a 130 lumen source, you need 1300 lumens. Now THAT's huge. But 130 to 190, that's piddly and barely perceptible (except by a light meter or integrating sphere)

 

[UnknownVT]

Judging from the runtime graphs in selfbuilt's NiteCore D10 & EX10 Reviews both values could be correct. Running on surefire CR123A's the Extreme is significantly brighter than the EX10.

Yes, I saw selfbuilt's wonderful review and
addressed that in Post #44 and #46 in NiteCore D10 Comparison Review .

I wrote PM to selfbuilt on this, and he talked about this in his post #68 .

I can only say I have 4 samples of the Extreme - one each of the EX10, D10 and NDI and the Extreme on primary CR123 seems basically the same level as the EX10 on primary CR123, D10 and NDI on Li-Ion 14500 - they seem that way by eye as well as comparison beamshots - both direct side-by-side beamshots,
as well as the more "practical"/real-world stairway beamshots.

Matrix comparing the D10, Extreme and EX10 and using the Fenix P3D-RB100 as a control -

Just to make sure that tint/color didn't make the comparison harder - I removed the color by deSaturation -

These are all close - there are, I am sure, bound to be measurable differences -
but I would say these are close enough there would probably be very little practical difference in real usage -
and a 60 lumens difference ought be noticable?

 

[UnknownVT]

Not really, if you think in relative terms. It's 46% brighter which is a very moderate 1.6 dB brighter.

Remember that it takes an order of magnitude increase for your eyes to perceive an apparent doubling in brightness. That means 10dB or a factor of 10. For example, if you want to perceive a doubling in brightness from a 130 lumen source, you need 1300 lumens. Now THAT's huge. But 130 to 190, that's piddly and barely perceptible (except by a light meter or integrating sphere)

I knew someone wouild come up with that.

OK perhaps "huge" was the wrong term to use.

relatively speaking using percentages that is still 46% brighter and although on the db logarithmic scale this may only be 1.6db - this is detectable by both the human eye as well as photos - please look at the stairway shots above in Post #9 - there is very little visible practical difference - close enough to call them even.

Just to be sure here is the D10 on NiMH and that same Extreme on Li-Ion RCR123 as well as the D10 on Li-Ion again stairway shots -

I would say one can see the difference quite easily between the D10 on NiMH and either the Extreme or D10 on Li-Ion?

Here are the color removed/destaurated version to be sure -

So there is a visible difference between the D10 on NiMH and the exact same D10 on Li-Ion -
yet according to NiteCore themselves the D10 is rated 130 lumens for both regular AA as well as Li-Ion.

 

[mighty82]

Yes, the ratings are incorrect. Both the "high" rating and the "low" rating. That's pretty obvious.

 

[orcinus]

Not really, if you think in relative terms. It's 46% brighter which is a very moderate 1.6 dB brighter.

Remember that it takes an order of magnitude increase for your eyes to perceive an apparent doubling in brightness. That means 10dB or a factor of 10. For example, if you want to perceive a doubling in brightness from a 130 lumen source, you need 1300 lumens. Now THAT's huge. But 130 to 190, that's piddly and barely perceptible (except by a light meter or integrating sphere)

Erm. Shouldn't it be a 4x increase in lumens for a 2x increase in apparent brightness? I.e. 520 lumens from 130 lumens?

(or did i mix something up )

 

[phantom23]

The ratio is 1,41. So from 130lm apparently brighter is 183lm.

 

[orcinus]

Hmmm... After googling for a while, i've found a fourth version - 2.0x results in a 25% apparent increase.

I'm getting seriously confused now. Which of these is right?

 

[jupello]

EDIT: oh.. UnknownVT had already said that the output ratings do differ quite a bit between NIMH and lithium batteries, so no need to repeat it again

This chart from http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=202436 claims that there's almost 1000lux difference on the throw between the two battery types on D10

 

[CM]

I knew someone wouild come up with that.

OK perhaps "huge" was the wrong term to use.

relatively speaking using percentages that is still 46% brighter and although on the db logarithmic scale this may only be 1.6db - this is detectable by both the human eye as well as photos - please look at the stairway shots above in Post ....So there is a visible difference between the D10 on NiMH and the exact same D10 on Li-Ion -
yet according to NiteCore themselves the D10 is rated 130 lumens for both regular AA as well as Li-Ion.

You're trying to make this more complicated than it is. Photographs are qualitative, not quantitative. You can't rely on them to guage something that needs to be expressed quantitatively. No matter what some people would like to see or believe, the physics behind it all cannot be changed. The only way to get the answer is to use an objective measurement, not subjective observations or "claims" of the manufacturer.

Now where's Peter Gransee? Help me out here Peter.

Incidentally, the D10 and EX10 are strictly boost. Using Li-Ions can give you brighter output depending on Vf of the LED. The statement that the D10 is rated 130 lumens for both regular AA and Li-Ion is technically correct (they will both put out at least 130 lumens) but not necessarily accurate, practically speaking. Some people mistakenly assume that because the light works with Li-Ion that it uses a buck boost when test data shows this to be incorrect.

Hmmm... After googling for a while, i've found a fourth version - 2.0x results in a 25% apparent increase.

I'm getting seriously confused now. Which of these is right?

From here:

www.cs.umsl.edu/~sanjiv/cs464/lectures/perception.ps.gz

"To double the perceived loudness, sound pressure level must be increased by 10 dB, requiring 10 times the original power..."

sound and light intensity are perceived the same way.

 

[NetGod3Com]

This should help to further muddy the waters, or clear them depending on how you look at it.

 

[mighty82]

Ahhh, so they are boost only? That would explain why they are so bright with a fresh 14500 and drops 25% the first 20 minutes, and then they stabilize once the battery voltage is below the vf voltage. I wish people used the "regulated" part of the output when comparing them to other lights instead of the initial "spike".

 

[CM]

This should help to further muddy the waters, or clear them depending on how you look at it.

Muddy.

 

[NetGod3Com]

Just glad I could help.

 

[orcinus]

"To double the perceived loudness, sound pressure level must be increased by 10 dB, requiring 10 times the original power..."

sound and light intensity are perceived the same way.

Yes, i'm aware of how things work with sound.
However, we're not talking about decibels here and i didn't know they are perceived the same way (are they? especially considering intricacies such as photopic and scotopic vision, different weighting etc.).