Primary CR123 blew out P1D

moldyoldy

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Last night, one of my old-acquaintance fix-it guys handed me a very obviously dead P1D which I had originally provided.

A couple nights ago in his garage, he turned it on to the "first" (medium) level, laid it on a bench pointing to where he wanted and walked across the garage. He heard a loud BANG which really scared him, about like a .22 LR going off. The air in the garage stunk so badly he opened the main door. After it cooled off, he picked it up with a pair of needlenose pliers and started looking to see what happened.

Without extracting the RCR123 cell and thereby destroying some of the evidence, it was obvious what happened. The single cell AW RCR123 explosively vented. The gas vented thru the lens and blackened the LED and reflector. There was no evidence remaining of the lens except small pieces of a glass-like substance on the garage floor.

The AW cell (black) was several months old, but less than a year. It was not "old" in the sense of use. He had AW 4 cells that he rotated. The last charge was several days ago.

Considering that this is a single cell light, which is supposed to "minimize" these explosive events, I am surprised. How many other single RCR123 explosive events have occurred?

The light was purchased from 4Sevens. I do not recall where I purchased the AW batteries. So is this a case of recycle, or is someone interested in the pathology of the event? Meaning should I send this light/cell to anyone?

Of course, any Lithium-something cell has a lot of energy and can "rapidly disassemble". That is the point of this forum which serves as a warning to any RCR cell user. If he had been holding that flashlight, I fully expect that I would have had a subsequent call from an ER.

Moldoldy
 
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saabluster

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Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

Glad nobody got hurt. What's with all the explosions and fire here recently? It's enough to make me throw away all my lithium batteries.
 

Illum

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Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

the circuit should have prevented an underdischarge from occuring...or prevent a short circuit from occuring should the wrapper be damaged.

After so many incidents with battery cases, unprotected and protected alike, this might be the first this forum bears witness to concerning AW's protected line of LiCoO2 Cells...
 

WebWalker

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Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

Hi ModyOldy

Glad noone was hurt.

I started this morning reading about the poor guy and his flashlight that grenaded!

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/262234

And I've just moved to Li-Ion. Had my charger and batteries delivered today. Now I'm concerned.

I'll follow your thread and the poor fellow in the Phillipines to see if how the community will analyze the information and make recommendations.

This Li-Ion is like Nitromethane for our lights. Lots of fun but demands respect. (old NHRA fan)
 

Black Rose

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Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

I'd be interested in knowing why this cell went off, especially since the light was only on medium.

In the past, when doing some runtime tests in a single cell light with AW and Trustfire protected 16340 cells, the protection circuits on both sets of batteries reliably tripped (630 mA tailcap measurements) in each test.
 

timberwolf

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Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

Some interessting questions in order of relevance:

1. Did the light output drop prior to the explosion?
2. Was the light inlcuding the battery subjected to mechanical stress, especially a drop?
2. Was the shrink wrap arround the battery worn, exposing the metal strip leading to the protection circuit?
3. Was the light exposed to any remarkable high or low temperature?
 

Olef

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Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

Another scary event and this time with the most respected cell around here. In a single cell config too. Wow.

Can we get pictures of the light and the failed battery? The smart guys on here will be able to reconstruct the failure from them I'm sure and we'd all like to know what happened so we can (hopefully) avoid it.

Once again glad no-one got hurt.

Olef
 

fyrstormer

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Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

I've been using Li-Ions for a year now, not counting my laptop batteries, and I've never had anything approaching something I would call an incident -- or anything even deviating slightly from normal, for that matter.

I think the trick is DON'T USE 4.2V BATTERIES IN 3V-ONLY FLASHLIGHTS. The P1D isn't designed for Li-Ions, the regulator can't downconvert the higher voltage, and the emitter will be direct-driven by it as a result. That equals excessive heat (I should know, I tested a Li-Ion in a P1D once), and excessive heat equals catastrophic failure.
 
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timberwolf

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Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

@fyrstormer
Would he been able to even set the light to a low level? Does the P1D converter use PWM? The other Fenix lights don't use PWM AFAIR.

But I highly doubt that the excess heat would have cooked the cell over the thermal runnaway point without the user noticing that in normale use. You usually need temperatures above 80C / 176F to kill the seperator....
 

TooManyGizmos

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Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

@Fyrstormer ,

I don' think this is a case of "DumbAss".

This could have happened to any of us .

I think you should remove your artwork claiming - DumbAss .... Please .

we all have SO many lights now ... and a wrong voltage batt. can easily slip right in ... if we've had the light 4 years , and have a lapse in memory.

How do YOU remember exactly which batt. to use/OR/not use , in ALL the various lights that YOU own. Do yo have a system you could share with us ? Do you refer to a CHART you have made as a reference for ALL your lights and the cells they can/can't take ? Do you refer to it Each time you put cells in a light. I have a P1d , and many other lights , and sometimes I get them confused. It's easy to do. And even Worse for family members who don't have a clue.

There is no built in safeguard that keeps anyone from putting a 4.2v cell in a 3v light .

I don't understand how or why this event happened in a Single cell light ? Seems that it would have just burned out the Driver or the LED if voltage was exceeded . I think this was a strange event ........

But please admit .... it could happen to any of us . And the OP didn't do it - a friend did it .

Neither of them were necesarilly a dumbass .... OK .
.
 

fyrstormer

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Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

No sense of humor, huh? Come on guys, it's just a picture of a fake error message.

No, he wouldn't have been able to set the brightness of the P1D with a 4.2V battery installed in it -- at least, not until the battery voltage drops below ~3.4V. The circuit is a boost-only voltage regulator, with current-regulation controlling the modes. When the input voltage is above the LED's forward voltage, the regulator stops functioning and the LED gets whatever the battery can shove through it. Crees especially seem to produce tons of excess heat when overdriven this way.

The OP said that the user set the light down on a workbench while it was on, so there was no "human heatsink" to keep the temperature within reasonable limits. Based on testing I did with a scratch-and-dent P1D and a protected cell a few months ago, it would get scalding-hot in a couple of minutes under those circumstances, and the battery would absorb a large amount of that heat. It is entirely possible for a protected battery that had been repeatedly abused like that to fail catastrophically. Heck, I've even seen laptop batteries where the plastic around the battery pack was warped and melted when one of the cells failed non-catastrophically when the battery got old.

Fenixes are PRIMARY CELL ONLY. If by some wild chance you come across 3V protected rechargeables, those should work okay, but they're really designed for primaries and only primaries.

TMG, since you asked, I do have a system for keeping straight which batteries go in which flashlights: I keep batteries in them all the time, and when I need to replace or recharge one, I put the exact same kind of battery into it. I have Ultrafire unprotected RCR123s, AW protected RCR123s, primary CR123s, and generic unprotected smaller batteries for my Eiger and Raw Ti. Obviously in the case of the specialty batteries it's impossible to mix them up, but for the 123-based lights I just look at the battery I took out and replace it with one of the same type.
 
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timberwolf

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Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

I was thinking AWs protected RCR123 feature a PTC at the positive terminal, that should have shut down the battery long before a separator breakdown...:thinking:
 

TooManyGizmos

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Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

Thanks FyrStormer ,

I use pretty much the same system as you .......

But BOY .... when ya gota lotta lights - that's a lotta batteries to keep charged and maintained .
The P1D is no longer on the Fenix site to look up ... for reference and batt. specs .

I also keep a long list/chart to refer back to , when I can't remember.


(dang... I can't remember where I put that list that helps me remember which cells I can use)
 

Illum

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Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

I was thinking AWs protected RCR123 feature a PTC at the positive terminal, that should have shut down the battery long before a separator breakdown...:thinking:

I know for sure that AWs have ICs located in the rear of their cells [17670s/18650s] but the existance of a PTC is uncertain to me.

is the battery removable or has it liquified within the P1D?:candle:
 

Bullzeyebill

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Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

We may never know the real cause of this failure, but we do know that an RCR123 was used in a light designed for a primary CR123, and we have sort of gotta consider that as a possible cause for this accident. Now, many of us have probably done the same thing without incident, but it not a good idea.

Bill
 

RAGE CAGE

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Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

@Fyrstormer ,

I don't understand how or why this event happened in a Single cell light ? Seems that it would have just burned out the Driver or the LED if voltage was exceeded . I think this was a strange event ........

But please admit .... it could happen to any of us . And the OP didn't do it - a friend did it .

Neither of them were necesarilly a dumbass .... OK .
.

The TK Moster incident and now this..:eek: (at least to me) unheard of PROTECTED AW cell incident in SINGLE CELL usage. I was on the fence before I decided to try Li-Ion- now I will only be keeping my 2 AW 18650 IMR's for single cell usage. I don't think all that stored energy is worth the risk to me even if I have used them carefully in the past without incident.
 

moldyoldy

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Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

in answer to several questions in the thread:

History:

That Fenix P1D is a couple years old, one of the early P1Ds sold by 4Sevens back in the Fenix-Store days.

The AW RCR123 cells were purchased probably Summer/Fall 2009. To my knowledge, they are the latest production with a black wrap.

I myself used that Fenix P1D originally before turning it over to him. I rarely turn over a light w/o using it at least a little bit to ensure getting past the premie failure stage and to check on the latest production quality.

Event timeline:

The light was in regular use and normally used on the first turn-on level, which technically is medium for a P1D. He carried it in his pants pocket. The metal casing of the P1D shows lots of pocket and key wear with a few minor dings on the front bezel.

The battery was charged on the previous weekend. He gave me the P1D on Wed night. So the battery was not likely "discharged", although we will never know.

The user had just barely turned on the light and laid it on the workbench pointing it where he needed light. This was not an "overheating" failure. The elapsed time was a minute or two.

Post-event commentary:

I do not like to speculate on failure causes without more information. However it is very clear that the top of the cell disintegrated during the explosive venting. I do not know if the RCR123 is removable - did not try since that could destroy some of the evidence.

yes, the AW RCR123 cell is a 4.2v cell in a Fenix light intended for a 3.0-3.2v cell. The original Fenix design was probably for a primary cell.

I do not have a photo upload site. I can try taking some photos and emailing them to someone who does have a photo upload site. PM me.

Path Forward? recycle time unless otherwise requested. I have no intention of requesting a warranty replacement, either from 4Sevens or AW.

I consider this event to be a warning to LiIon users, myself included. Be Carefull! Before this event I had reduced all of my LiIon cells and flashlights down to a few RCR123 cells in corresponding lights. The first to go were the 18650 LiIon cells which I considered the most dangerous. This event simply reinforces that action.

MoldyOldy (retired EE)
 
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carrot

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Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

You can host images for free at Imageshack.us without registering, but if you would like me to do it for you just send the photos to me at: cpf.carrot (AT) gmail (DOT) com
 

moldyoldy

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Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

You can host images for free at Imageshack.us without registering, but if you would like me to do it for you just send the photos to me at: cpf.carrot (AT) gmail (DOT) com

OK, done deal. 800x600 photos will be emailed to you shortly. I tried a variety of photos. Pick whichever seems to best represent the situation. Thanks!

MoldyOldy
 

Databyter

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Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

I recently bought 3 rcr123'ss to use in several Fenix lights including a P1D CE and I was displeased to find that the vendor shipped the lights in a flat USPS mailer with no protection for them being put underneath other boxes or dropped directly on the side of the battery.

It seems little to ask that these lights at least be shipped next to a huk of plastic or at the least a handfull of popcorn.

Batteries are not intended to be pedestals for 40 pound boxes bouncing down a bumpy road in the back of a truck. I almost want to send them back.

It's pause enough to read threads like this without having idiots go out of thier way to inadequatly protect these type of cells during shipping to your home.

Now I'm wondering if I should use them at all? Any thoughts?
 

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