Primary CR123 blew out P1D

[timberwolf]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

und dann Glück auf!

Der Stammgreis...

ps: Yes, I lived in Deutschland.

:twothumbs Na dann einen, schönen Gruß aus der alten Heimat!

Bottom line is, this shouldn't have happened with all those safeguards in place, and they are not comparative to assistant systems like ABS.
Glad your buddy didn't try to charge the cell :eek:

 

[carrot]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

It is, of course, possible to have faulty safeguards.

And you missed the point -- even with safeties it is possible for something to go wrong.

 

[Illum]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

It is, of course, possible to have faulty safeguards.

And you missed the point -- even with safeties it is possible for something to go wrong.

Most people have the tendency to overlook the fact that safety measures incooorectly implemented often is the predominant element that causes accidents:ohgeez:

 

[Olef]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

So now we think that we know this cell failed on first use i.e discharge and it may have been overdischarged.

I'm a noob as far as these cells go, what happens if overdischarged? I was under the impression it damaged the cell's power holding capacity, not made it go bang. Is that right?

If this cell was bought in the fall of '09 then it was probably made some months before. So we can be fairly sure it has sat benignly for several months and been shipped around a bit with no problems.

So back to now. What made it go boom? There's an awful lot of lights out there with single cell AW's in and that includes on my desk here. I would really like to know what caused this event even if only to ease my own mind.

Could the cell have had damaged shrinkwrap? That would have allowed it to remain safe until it went into a light then shorted it out. Does that make any sense?

MoldyOldy, have any of our experts on here offered yet to look at this light and offer an opinion?

Olef

 

[timberwolf]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

It is, of course, possible to have faulty safeguards.

And you missed the point -- even with safeties it is possible for something to go wrong.

Well maybe I wouldn't have missed your point, wouldn't you have used a comparison to an assisting system not a safeguard system.

Well I don't want to be picky BUT you missed the point too i guess ;)
In the case we are seeing here, no safeguard could have prevented the venting I believe. If the separator inside the cells breaks down, then nothing really can stop the reaction. And its nearly impossible for the user to cause this by running the cell inside the light for just a few minutes.

I think we are back on topic now.

 

[timberwolf]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

Most people have the tendency to overlook the fact that safety measures incooorectly implemented often is the predominant element that causes accidents:ohgeez:

Well that for sure isn't the case here, the safety electronics implemented in those cells can only stop the current flow and can't cause strong shorts as the traces on the PCB will be fried within a second.

 

[Stress_Test]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

I just recently received an AW 18650 which was somehow killed after the first charge. It worked at first out of the box, and was still showing about 3.8 volts after some use, but after charging it showed 0 volts. That was yesterday, and it still shows 0 volts today, so I don't know if the protection circuit permanently tripped or what.

But that's another case of failure in the first cycle.

 

[moldyoldy]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

<snip>

Could the cell have had damaged shrinkwrap? That would have allowed it to remain safe until it went into a light then shorted it out. Does that make any sense?

MoldyOldy, have any of our experts on here offered yet to look at this light and offer an opinion?

Olef

Since I ordered/received those cells, I did look them over upon receipt. I stored them until eventual delivery. No shrinkwrap damage was evident.

I myself have no interest in extracting the burned RCR123 cell from the P1D. I do not know enough about what the insides of a good AW RCR123 cell look like to have any judgement on this damage.

No one, recognized expert or otherwise, has requested the evidence. It is still sitting in a baggy waiting. I am perfectly willing to ship it nearly anywhere at no cost/gratis/unentgeltlich/kostenlos, but then the burden of an assessment would rest on that person. I also recognize that the US Zollamt/Customs would proably have a problem with a suitable description if sent outside the US.

 

[Monocrom]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

Damn! Good to hear no one was injured.

 

[AW]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

moldyoldy,

Can you retake the pictures for a better view? Better yet, if you can shake out the R123 from the P1D to take some pictures from the side and button of the cell? Position the camera from a longer distance from the object may help a proper focus. Is the LED module still working or can you determine whether the driver circuit is still functioning? I suppose you can check relatively easy being a retired EE. The black stuff is carbon powder used as electrode ( sprayed evenly on the entire separator sheet ) and can be wiped off from the light engine with rubbing alcohol and a Q-tip. Once I get to see some better pictures, I may be able to tell something at least.

AW

 

[moldyoldy]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

moldyoldy,

Can you retake the pictures for a better view? Better yet, if you can shake out the R123 from the P1D to take some pictures from the side and button of the cell? Position the camera from a longer distance from the object may help a proper focus. Is the LED module still working or can you determine whether the driver circuit is still functioning? I suppose you can check relatively easy being a retired EE. The black stuff is carbon powder used as electrode ( sprayed evenly on the entire separator sheet ) and can be wiped off from the light engine with rubbing alcohol and a Q-tip. Once I get to see some better pictures, I may be able to tell something at least.

AW

For the forum readers, some private messages are flying around. We should have a path forward for the investigation shortly which should include disassembly and photos, but probably nothing posted this week.

MoldyOldy

 

[Olef]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

Thanks MoldyOldy, AW, watching this thread with interest...

Olef

 

[SirJMD]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

Using lithium batteries are like playing with fire - you gotta know what to do, or you might get hurt ;)

Im not saying OP did something wrong - im just agreeing that lithium batteries can be dangerous.

 

[polkiuj]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

Using lithium batteries are like playing with fire - you gotta know what to do, or you might get hurt ;)

Im not saying OP did something wrong - im just agreeing that lithium batteries can be dangerous.

Sir, do you use handphones or laptops? That's playing with fire. They all run lithiums.

 

[moldyoldy]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

fyi: The remnants of the P1D and battery are in transit. Look for a post early next week on an investigation.

MoldyOldy

 

[RAGE CAGE]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

CPF CSI here we come.
Episode I: AW :poof: Post Mortem.
:popcorn:

 

[65535]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

Seems to me we must distinguish between venting gas and venting gas with flames, which seemed to happen here judging by the photos.

Nothing appears to be burnt, looks like the cell simply vented it's electrolyte and a lot of carbon from the cell with it like AW himself suggested.

 

[Conan]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

Fenixes are PRIMARY CELL ONLY. If by some wild chance you come across 3V protected rechargeables, those should work okay, but they're really designed for primaries and only primaries.

Sorry to chime in with an OT but I need to correct this, Fenix TA21 and the TK 11R2 were made to work with 18650's.

http://www.fenixlight.com/viewnproduct.asp?id=45

http://www.fenixlight.com/viewproduct.asp?id=92

 

[timberwolf]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

Nothing appears to be burnt, looks like the cell simply vented it's electrolyte and a lot of carbon from the cell with it like AW himself suggested.

Hmm I was judging by the LED and the reflector, they look burned to me, but maybe your right and its mainly chemical and mechanical damage...

 

[Illum]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

Hmm I was judging by the LED and the reflector, they look burned to me, but maybe your right and its mainly chemical and mechanical damage...

with a single formed body light like this, when it comes to weakspots is usually through the LED and the reflector assembly...because threaded joints are very very tough against gaseous expansion. If threads fail that easily, pipebombs would be called "amateur rocket motors" and not "pipebombs":D

A portion of the discharge gases made it into the reflector assembly due to a sudden imbalance in pressure. You gotta remember that venting produces very very high temperatures, high enough to easily melt plastic