Primary CR123 blew out P1D

[timberwolf]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

with a single formed body light like this, when it comes to weakspots is usually through the LED and the reflector assembly...because threaded joints are very very tough against gaseous expansion. If threads fail that easily, pipebombs would be called "amateur rocket motors" and not "pipebombs":D

A portion of the discharge gases made it into the reflector assembly due to a sudden imbalance in pressure. You gotta remember that venting produces very very high temperatures, high enough to easily melt plastic

Yep I know, bread and butter for a diver, although an expansion usually means a negative temperature change ;)
But the LED really looks like the dome was fried, you see those little cracks?
They usually are caused by material shrinking away when the surface itself is heated way more than the deeper layers.

 

[Illum]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

Yep I know, bread and butter for a diver, although an expansion usually means a negative temperature change ;)
But the LED really looks like the dome was fried, you see those little cracks?
They usually are caused by material shrinking away when the surface itself is heated way more than the deeper layers.

hmm, so if I understand you correctly the LED didn't crack due to a pressure difference, but instead uneven heating? hmm, that is certainly possible:)

Theres more than one way to destroy a LED Dome, reflector jarring is certainly one:o

 

[moldyoldy]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

an update: To summarize briefly, a single xCR123 cell inside a Fenix P1D went in to "rapid disassembly" mode and vented with a bang. Upon questioning the handyman, he recalled that it was a black cell. The only black cells that I gave him were AW RCR123 cells. Photos were posted of the light but w/o removing the cell. The light with the destroyed cell still inside was sent to a CPF member for diassembly.

Disassembly report: The xCR123 cell was pretty much reduced to a charred mess. However, NO circuit board was found inside the battery. Furthermore, although the remnants of shrink wrap were very blackened, there was a hint of turquoise color - or something equivalent - where a shrink wrap should have been. meaning that the shrink wrap was not originally black.

Assessment: Despite a belief by the handyman that he inserted a black xxx123 cell into the light, since no circuit board or any protection system inside the cell was found, and since the only hint of color was not black, and the only black RCR123 cells that I gave him were AW123 cells, the assessment is that the xxx123 cell was a primary CR123 cell - not a rechargeable RCR123 cell. More specifically, the destroyed cell was NOT an AW RCR123 cell.

Conclusion: The cell inside the P1D was a primary CR123 cell. The battery was run down to some very low level, far below where a typical protection circuit would have tripped out. The cell violently vented with heat/pressure and the overpressure blew out the lens of the P1D.

Bottom line for CPF members:
- AW RCR123 cells are NOT implicated in this destructive event.
- In all cases, do not run xxx123 cells down to very low levels. As soon as a light dims, swap cells, even if the protection circuit did not trip.

Bottom line for the Handyman.
- He was instructed to recycle any RCR123 rechargeable cells except the AW RCR123 cells.
- He was instructed to recycle any CR123 cells not from a recent distribution. He had cells from various distributions of well over a year ago.
- He was instructed to NOT discharge batteries beyond dimming or any indication that the battery is nearly discharged. He often did this!

MoldyOldy

 

[Olef]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

Thank you MoldyOldy (and AW and SilverFox) for following this through and reporting back to us. I, for one, appreciate this very much and I am pleased this turned out to not be an AW cell problem.

On the flip side of that are primary 123's so temperamental that simply using them too much can cause a meltdown? If that is the case surely these things are dangerous to have on sale to the vast majority of the public, 99.9% of whom would never imagine such an event was possible with an item generally available. :eek:

Olef

 

[SilverFox]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

Hello Moldyoldy,

Here are some pictures and bits and pieces of the conversation that AW and I have had over the last few days.

I can't find any evidence of a protection circuit.

Here are some pictures.

Looking inside the body you can see the spring at the bottom.

Here is a top view of the cell,

and the bottom view of the cell.

Here is a view with the top lifted off,

and a slightly different angle of the last view.

When AW saw these pictures he asked me to review the disassembly picture Newbie posted of a primary CR123 cell.

from AW,

The safety vent /PTC of my R123 looks like this with a metal connector instead of a nylon connector used in most primary CR123s :

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=144427

Also, the underside of the module looks like this :

Please compare your cell with the primary CR123 post in the following thread by Newbie. Pay special attention to the connector and the module construction.

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1485425&postcount=44

We then compared measurements of the can and since AW's R-CR123 cell cans are slightly shorter than those of primary cells, in order to accomodate the protection circuit, we came to the conclusion that the cell that "rapidly vented with flame" was not an AW cell, but a primary cell. It also appears that this particular cell was missing a PTC circuit which would have shut things down before they got too far out of hand.

Now that we know what cell was involved, I am going to edit the title of this thread to remove AW and his cells from it.

Tom

 

[carrot]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

In other words, a cheap cell without protection vented with flame. Not exactly surprising... #1 reason to stick with good, name brand cells.

 

[moldyoldy]

Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D

In other words, a cheap cell without protection vented with flame. Not exactly surprising... #1 reason to stick with good, name brand cells.

Absolutely Correct - cheap cells are just that - cheap. Let the buyer beware!

However, just as importantly, rotate your cells/batteries, and, check the "old" cells for charge level before using. That maintenance man with the "ex-P1D" was using cells over 2 years old - and with no checking. sigh.

 

[Black Rose]

Interesting findings.

What's concerning is that even though it was a cheap cell that went :poof: we routinely tell people here that using CR123A primaries in a single cell light is safe.

We constantly recommend USA made cells (Panasonic and their OEM versions) or Japanese made cells (Sanyo) but I think we really need to start indicating that "using CR123A primaries in a single cell light is safe as long as you are using quality cells".

This is now making me wonder about using my battery vampire CR123A light to drain the battery before it goes in the recycling bin.

 

[Illum]

:grin2:

 

[LuxLuthor]

CPF-CSI did a stand up job here! I bet AW was sweating bullets for a bit there. :sweat:

Did anyone say which cheap Chinese generic the aforementioned "handy" man used in this case? I see some turquoise on the label....but not sure which brand that narrows down to.

 

[timberwolf]

lovecpf Thanks SilverFox for this in depth analysis.

This turquoise somehow reminds me of Energizer cells, they are mostly silver but have some turquoise parts on the label AFAIR :thinking: maybe the first coat is turquoise and then the silver is added n top.
I don't have one at hand, anyone?

 

[Monocrom]

Perhaps it wasn't this one. But it's turquoise in color and indeed cheap.

Powerizer brand CR123 primary.

 

[moldyoldy]

I do know which cells and lights I supplied to the Handyman and I have my suspicions. However he was working at the time of the event. Which cell/battery he inserted in to his working light was not exactly the focus of his job. I also know that in the group he works in, other CR123 cells have been purchased in unknown B&M stores, albeit very few.

In any case, the evidence indicates that his memory was faulty as to which xCR123 cell. So I will refrain from further comment. You have the photos of the remains as evidence.

Nevertheless, I have duly chastised myself for making a leading statement at the beginning of this thread as to which cell was involved. I should have waited. I have interviewed more than a couple "eye-witnesses" after the event and know only too well how unreliable they are. My apologies to AW and to the group!

My complements to Silverfox and AW for sorting out the circumstantials after the fact.

moldyoldy

 

[RAGE CAGE]

please tell me this was not the well known Bunny Brand primary....it has the dark and light blue and silver on the label....I guess I might just have to stick with Sfire's purchased from Brick and Mortar hardware store that starts with L.
Hopefully it was some cheapo off brand....I am so conflicted with the whole rechargable/primary 123 situation right now....:confused:

Carrying a ti- well sealed with primary 123 on my keys in my front pocket is not real comforting right now...

 

[Monocrom]

please tell me this was not the well known Bunny Brand primary....it has the dark and light blue and silver on the label....I guess I might just have to stick with Sfire's purchased from Brink and Mortar hardware store that starts with L.
Hopefully it was some cheapo off brand....I am so conflicted with the whole rechargable/primary 123 situation right now....:confused:

Carrying a ti- well sealed with primary 123 on my keys in my front pocket is not real comforting right now...

There's also the possibility that the CR123 primary was a counterfeit wrapped in a big name label. That possibility is why I generally use Surefire or Streamlight brand cells.

EDIT:

When dealing with a non-flashaholic, a small light running on one AA or AAA cell is usually a better bet. While I've gifted a handful of lights running on CR123 cells, those went to folks who knew not to use cheap cells in those lights.

 

[carrot]

It is bothersome, however, knowing that even in the single cell configuration, cheap no-name cells can blow. I think most of us assumed that the single cell configuration was safe from this sort of catastrophic event.

 

[RAGE CAGE]

There's also the possibility that the CR123 primary was a counterfeit wrapped in a big name label. That possibility is why I generally use Surefire or Streamlight brand cells.

Guess I will have to stick to Surefire 2 pack from L***S for $4.97.:sigh:
You guys figure that is the "safest" route to go for now?

 

[carrot]

I think the safest route to go is to buy from legitimate dealers like Lighthound and BatteryStation and BatteryJunction. And avoid Ebay because it's a haven for counterfeits.

 

[RAGE CAGE]

Cool...I picked up a Pelican case with foam insert and 8 Bunny 123 primaries from Lighthound about a month ago- will stick with them and 2 Bubble pack Surefires- haven't done the EvilBay thing for years now.......

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Illum,

Thanks, fixed the link.

Tom