Primary CR123 blew out P1D
- Thread starter moldyoldy
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fyrstormer
Banned
Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D
The protection circuits on AW cells are at the negative terminal, which will heat up much more slowly than the positive terminal, which is much closer to the LED. The separator is on the positive terminal, as I recall. Now, it does seem unlikely that even in direct-drive operation the battery would heat up so fast as to cause a catastrophic failure, but if this light had been overdriven repeatedly for a couple of years, it's entirely possible that the regulator circuit failed completely and shorted-out the battery -- or that something was wet inside, and created a conduction path across the back of the head.. That definitely would've caused the battery to heat up extremely quickly. From what I've seen, AW RCR123s can output ~16A when fully-charged, even after sitting around for a couple of days. That's enough to pop a household circuit breaker, for reference.
Then again, maybe he just dropped the battery on the floor before installing it, and it shorted-out internally.
The protection circuits on AW cells are at the negative terminal, which will heat up much more slowly than the positive terminal, which is much closer to the LED. The separator is on the positive terminal, as I recall. Now, it does seem unlikely that even in direct-drive operation the battery would heat up so fast as to cause a catastrophic failure, but if this light had been overdriven repeatedly for a couple of years, it's entirely possible that the regulator circuit failed completely and shorted-out the battery -- or that something was wet inside, and created a conduction path across the back of the head.. That definitely would've caused the battery to heat up extremely quickly. From what I've seen, AW RCR123s can output ~16A when fully-charged, even after sitting around for a couple of days. That's enough to pop a household circuit breaker, for reference.
Then again, maybe he just dropped the battery on the floor before installing it, and it shorted-out internally.
moldyoldy
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D
Thanks Carrot!
The photos were somewhat difficult to choose a focus because the depth of field was quite narrow. The charring of so much material also made a discernably sharp photo difficult. It was easier to variously rotate the P1D in my hand to avoid light glare from the areas of interest.
One comment not necessarily obvious from the photos. Based on how the soot was distributed on the reflector and base of the head, the initial venting seemed to originate on one side of the battery. The top of the battery itself was completely charred and in pieces.
Thanks Carrot!
The photos were somewhat difficult to choose a focus because the depth of field was quite narrow. The charring of so much material also made a discernably sharp photo difficult. It was easier to variously rotate the P1D in my hand to avoid light glare from the areas of interest.
One comment not necessarily obvious from the photos. Based on how the soot was distributed on the reflector and base of the head, the initial venting seemed to originate on one side of the battery. The top of the battery itself was completely charred and in pieces.
moldyoldy
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D
To my knowledge, his battery usage was about 50-50 between the CR123 (non-rechargeable) vs RCR123 (rechargeable) cells.
As for dropping a battery, well, since he is a good all-around handyman, I would not expect him to be dropping small objects, but I really do not know.
To my knowledge, his battery usage was about 50-50 between the CR123 (non-rechargeable) vs RCR123 (rechargeable) cells.
As for dropping a battery, well, since he is a good all-around handyman, I would not expect him to be dropping small objects, but I really do not know.
65535
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D
The cell didn't explosively vent or whatever the hip term is these days. It did vent, what "exploded" was the front glass window finally blowing out as the cell vented into the light body creating high pressures.
Seems like user error to me, most of the time it is, even when it isn't, it usually is.
The cell didn't explosively vent or whatever the hip term is these days. It did vent, what "exploded" was the front glass window finally blowing out as the cell vented into the light body creating high pressures.
Seems like user error to me, most of the time it is, even when it isn't, it usually is.
coloradogps
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D
Here's MD's Rechargeable Compatibility chart/guide for popular flashlights!
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/201375
Here's MD's Rechargeable Compatibility chart/guide for popular flashlights!
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/201375
timberwolf
Newly Enlightened
Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D
Abuse in a P1D or not, this shouldn't have happened with this battery just during discharging and without any external mechanical stress or raised temperature stress outside the batteries control i.e. placing the whole light on a cooking plate or hot motor block.
The PTC in the current AW cells is located at the positive terminal, integrated with the pressure relieve vent/overpressure switch. So the PTC would actually be the first thing to heat up, even before the cell itself.
I was talking about the separator inside the battery, not the overpressure switch which indeed is located at the positive terminal.
Abuse in a P1D or not, this shouldn't have happened with this battery just during discharging and without any external mechanical stress or raised temperature stress outside the batteries control i.e. placing the whole light on a cooking plate or hot motor block.
timberwolf
Newly Enlightened
Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D
Seems to me we must distinguish between venting gas and venting gas with flames, which seemed to happen here judging by the photos.
Seems to me we must distinguish between venting gas and venting gas with flames, which seemed to happen here judging by the photos.
timberwolf
Newly Enlightened
Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D
Just found AWs thread over at CPFMP:
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showpost.php?p=1731539&postcount=1
This thread is from 2006, so the battery in the P1D should have had all those "new" safety features. Especially the "anti explosion vent/ptc module".
Just found AWs thread over at CPFMP:
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showpost.php?p=1731539&postcount=1
This thread is from 2006, so the battery in the P1D should have had all those "new" safety features. Especially the "anti explosion vent/ptc module".
Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D
Those will still allow the light to vent.
The P1D as almost zero free volume inside with a battery installed.
Even if the battery only vents 50 or 60 cm^3 of gas (a tiny bit that would disperse in seconds when lying around uncontained) it will create several bar overpressure inside the light.
Thats like being down 50m in water, with the pressure on the glas going in the wrong direction. No wonder it blew out.
Does not matter.
Those will still allow the light to vent.
The P1D as almost zero free volume inside with a battery installed.
Even if the battery only vents 50 or 60 cm^3 of gas (a tiny bit that would disperse in seconds when lying around uncontained) it will create several bar overpressure inside the light.
Thats like being down 50m in water, with the pressure on the glas going in the wrong direction. No wonder it blew out.
fyrstormer
Banned
Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D
I'm curious to know how the venting gases managed to bypass the circuit board which covers almost the entire surface area on the back of the head. It doesn't look like they burned through it, at any rate.
I'm curious to know how the venting gases managed to bypass the circuit board which covers almost the entire surface area on the back of the head. It doesn't look like they burned through it, at any rate.
timberwolf
Newly Enlightened
Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D
This is true but what I meant was that with all those safety measures in place, the cell shouldn't have vented. For me this sounds more like those cells in laptop packs a few years ago which had their separator foils contaminated with metal chips, leading to internal shorts.
This is true but what I meant was that with all those safety measures in place, the cell shouldn't have vented. For me this sounds more like those cells in laptop packs a few years ago which had their separator foils contaminated with metal chips, leading to internal shorts.
hoongern
Enlightened
Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D
Yeah - I'm very curious and anxious to know what happened, as I also run AW RCR123s in similar applications, such as the Romisen RC-N3 which also 'kind of' goes into a DD on Li-Ions - as I'm sure many people are also doing - so I want to know if there is danger in doing this, after hearing about this... Ideally I'd have thought the protection would do as its name suggests - to protect against this kind of thing. Hope either AW or Silverfox can give their input sometime about this..
Yeah - I'm very curious and anxious to know what happened, as I also run AW RCR123s in similar applications, such as the Romisen RC-N3 which also 'kind of' goes into a DD on Li-Ions - as I'm sure many people are also doing - so I want to know if there is danger in doing this, after hearing about this... Ideally I'd have thought the protection would do as its name suggests - to protect against this kind of thing. Hope either AW or Silverfox can give their input sometime about this..
Stillphoto
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D
I use AW's batteries, I know of their quality and reliability...Isn't there a chance this just could have been a bad cell? It has to happen to even the best now and then.
I use AW's batteries, I know of their quality and reliability...Isn't there a chance this just could have been a bad cell? It has to happen to even the best now and then.
kramer5150
Flashaholic
Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D
It was posted eariler, but it bears repeating. The P1D was not designed for use at 4.2 Vin, and thus we can not rule out "user error" as a root cause.
It was posted eariler, but it bears repeating. The P1D was not designed for use at 4.2 Vin, and thus we can not rule out "user error" as a root cause.
timberwolf
Newly Enlightened
Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D
I wouldn't care if this was a light that just broke, but I'm somehow sensible when it comes to batteries, especially when there is no clean sign of abuse.
Yes the P1D isn't designed for rechargeable cells above 3.0 Volts and yes it goes to direct drive producing a lot more heat. But this cells are equipped with that many safety measures that the only things which should tip the battery into a thermal runaway are mechanical damage and extreme heat (not caused by discharging or the led).
As you all know, the catastrophic events with laptop battery packs in the past, which contain also safety electronics, nearly always lead to gigantic recalls. Thats not because the electronics failed, its because the cells themselves failed.
I don't see any clear evidence of a user error which could have caused this, all I see is a cell that violently vented even though it was protected against short circuit, over temperature and pressure buildup during discharge.
That is what made me to set aside my AW ICR 123s for now.
I wouldn't care if this was a light that just broke, but I'm somehow sensible when it comes to batteries, especially when there is no clean sign of abuse.
Yes the P1D isn't designed for rechargeable cells above 3.0 Volts and yes it goes to direct drive producing a lot more heat. But this cells are equipped with that many safety measures that the only things which should tip the battery into a thermal runaway are mechanical damage and extreme heat (not caused by discharging or the led).
As you all know, the catastrophic events with laptop battery packs in the past, which contain also safety electronics, nearly always lead to gigantic recalls. Thats not because the electronics failed, its because the cells themselves failed.
I don't see any clear evidence of a user error which could have caused this, all I see is a cell that violently vented even though it was protected against short circuit, over temperature and pressure buildup during discharge.
That is what made me to set aside my AW ICR 123s for now.
moldyoldy
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D
some updated information which may shed a bit more light (sic) on the event:
I talked to the handyman this morning at church and asked a few questions, like what was the history on this cell. He acquired an odd look on is face, hesitated some 5-10 seconds, and said that he has never charged this cell. He took the cell out of a pack of 4 new cells that I gave it to him and used it as it was.
He has worn out RCR123 cells before. I purchase the RCR cells in small quantity, typically only 4 at a time. I now remember where this replacement pack came from. No matter from where. These were the latest AW cells and purchased in Fall 2009.
I also know that the AW RCR123 LiIon cells that I have received are normally partially charged. He received the Fenix P1D some 3 years ago and has used it off/on since then.
Soooooo, indulging in a bit of speculation, the circumstantial evidence indicates that this AW RCR123 cell failed upon first use.
Does that knowledge change opinions?
some updated information which may shed a bit more light (sic) on the event:
I talked to the handyman this morning at church and asked a few questions, like what was the history on this cell. He acquired an odd look on is face, hesitated some 5-10 seconds, and said that he has never charged this cell. He took the cell out of a pack of 4 new cells that I gave it to him and used it as it was.
He has worn out RCR123 cells before. I purchase the RCR cells in small quantity, typically only 4 at a time. I now remember where this replacement pack came from. No matter from where. These were the latest AW cells and purchased in Fall 2009.
I also know that the AW RCR123 LiIon cells that I have received are normally partially charged. He received the Fenix P1D some 3 years ago and has used it off/on since then.
Soooooo, indulging in a bit of speculation, the circumstantial evidence indicates that this AW RCR123 cell failed upon first use.
Does that knowledge change opinions?
carrot
Flashaholic
Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D
With ABS and traction control and windshield wipers and brake lights people shouldn't get into car crashes...
timberwolf
Newly Enlightened
Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D
Wow what a great comparison...:shakehead
With circuit breakers electric wires don't start to burn if overloaded.:shrug:
Wow what a great comparison...:shakehead
With circuit breakers electric wires don't start to burn if overloaded.:shrug:
moldyoldy
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: AW RCR123 blew out P1D
und dann Glück auf!
Der Stammgreis...
ps: Yes, I lived in Deutschland.
und dann Glück auf!
Der Stammgreis...
ps: Yes, I lived in Deutschland.
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