PT Apex, still the "best"?

[Avatar28]

I had asked once before about the best headlamp for caving. The little RiverRock one from Target just doesn't cut it. Anyways, I never got one at the time because I was still recovering from a shoulder injury and subsequent surgery. Long story short, I hope to be able to go on a trip later this month. At the time of my original question it seemed that the Apex was the overwhelming favorite. My main requirements were good light output and flat regulation for as long as possible, and moderately priced (the $65 for the Apex will be a tough sell to the wife as it is). From what I could gather there hasn't been anything along in the last few months that is likely to have dethroned it. I just wanted to confirm that that is, indeed, the case.

 

[Meduza]

You can make a Seoul mod to the apex, that is "the" thing that makes it better than it is stock

 

[Avatar28]

You can make a Seoul mod to the apex, that is "the" thing that makes it better than it is stock

Yes, I had heard about these "mod" things. What are they? ;-) No, seriously, I know that's something a lot of people do. I will try to find one of the instructional threads on it but I'm at work and CPF is proxied out (says it's a forum of all things!) so I have to sidestep it, meaning that it's rather slow access. So, to save me a bit of trouble, about what do the Seoul P4 LEDs that I would need to do the mod run and how much, if any, does it affect the regulation time and flatness? It wouldn't be the first time I bought something and voided the warranty 10 minutes after I got it.

 

[scottaw]

Im a big fan of my Apex Pro (pro just uses 123's) It runs a very long time, BUT there are some new drawbacks popping up. When i bought my headlamp, i paid over $80, and loved it (still do, don't get me wrong). But now since the Cree/Seoul revolution, it seems dim on high. If i were going to buy another headlamp, i would wait for some new technology, especially when for $80 you could buy a seriously high powered torch and a cheap headlamp.

 

[CM]

Im a big fan of my Apex Pro (pro just uses 123's) It runs a very long time, BUT there are some new drawbacks popping up. When i bought my headlamp, i paid over $80, and loved it (still do, don't get me wrong). But now since the Cree/Seoul revolution, it seems dim on high. If i were going to buy another headlamp, i would wait for some new technology, especially when for $80 you could buy a seriously high powered torch and a cheap headlamp.

Replace the LED with Seoul. My guess is that it will take a while for some of the manufacturers to embrace the newer LED's and that by the time they do, we're already off to something better You could be waiting for a while and you'll always be behind "outdated".

 

[cave dave]

... about what do the Seoul P4 LEDs that I would need to do the mod run and how much, if any, does it affect the regulation time and flatness? It wouldn't be the first time I bought something and voided the warranty 10 minutes after I got it.

The P4 LED is about $10 shipped, plus you will need Thermal epoxy, and a reflector. You can get all from PhotonFanatic. If you keep the original optic it will almost double the brightness, it won't effect runtime or regulation.

If you switch to a reflector the mod is a little harder. In the case of the IMS 17 and writerite light diffuser combo I used, the spot stayed about the same brightness but the spill got much bigger and brighter. There are a variety of other reflector options. I would recommend the reflector for caving, in some ways the P4 Mod on the optic is almost too bright for caving even on the low. You will want the spill from a reflector to see the area around your feet.

Another cheaper and lighter option is to get and EOS and mod it. The high will now be almost as bright as the stock Apex and Med will run 10 hours regulated. The EOS P4 on Med is definitely enough for caving. I would rather have a modded EOS then a stock Apex.

Here is what the Apex looks like inside.

 

[Avatar28]

Im a big fan of my Apex Pro (pro just uses 123's) It runs a very long time, BUT there are some new drawbacks popping up. When i bought my headlamp, i paid over $80, and loved it (still do, don't get me wrong). But now since the Cree/Seoul revolution, it seems dim on high. If i were going to buy another headlamp, i would wait for some new technology, especially when for $80 you could buy a seriously high powered torch and a cheap headlamp.

Except that when caving your headlamp is your primary light and flat regulation is a good thing. Most of the cheaper headlamps don't have nearly the quality of regulation of the Apex from what I've seen. As several have suggested, I could just mod in a P4.

Speaking of, I haven't had much luck so far finding the mod instructions to see what exactly is involved. I assume it would be in the mod section, right?

cave_dave, regarding modding an EOS, what does the regulation on the EOS look like and what kind of runtime would I expect on high if I get 10 hrs on low? Or do you think that low will be plenty bright for caving? The EOS runs on AAA batteries, right? I know with the AA rechargables to look for the ones with letters stamped on the bottom as some of the best (I forget the letters but I know them when I see it). Are the AAAs similar?

The cave I hope to be going to later this month is a pretty big borehole (main tunnel 50-60 ft across maybe) and has some largish rooms so I want to make sure I have plenty of light available if I need it.

 

[cave dave]

EOS runtime charts here:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=105241

P4 mod instructions are in several different threads, its best to read all the mod thread you can find:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=162784
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=152039

 

[Beaker]

I had asked once before about the best headlamp for caving. The little RiverRock one from Target just doesn't cut it. Anyways, I never got one at the time because I was still recovering from a shoulder injury and subsequent surgery. Long story short, I hope to be able to go on a trip later this month. At the time of my original question it seemed that the Apex was the overwhelming favorite. My main requirements were good light output and flat regulation for as long as possible, and moderately priced (the $65 for the Apex will be a tough sell to the wife as it is). From what I could gather there hasn't been anything along in the last few months that is likely to have dethroned it. I just wanted to confirm that that is, indeed, the case.

IMHO the *best* headlight for caving is unquestionably the Stenlight... but at $300+ fora typical setup it's spendy and more than you specified.

BUT IMHO the PT Apex is the best bang for the buck right now. (But NOT the Apex Pro, which uses CR123 instead of AA... maybe backpackers looking to save half a gram are willing to put up with those, but not cavers!)

 

[Avatar28]

Thanks, cave_dave! Good reading.

IMHO the *best* headlight for caving is unquestionably the Stenlight... but at $300+ fora typical setup it's spendy and more than you specified.

BUT IMHO the PT Apex is the best bang for the buck right now. (But NOT the Apex Pro, which uses CR123 instead of AA... maybe backpackers looking to save half a gram are willing to put up with those, but not cavers!)

Agreed. No way would I EVER be able to convince the other half that a $300+ light is a good thing. The Apex is going to be a hard enough sell. Would I be right in guessing that a modded Apex would kick out about as much light as the Sten though? I mean, the Sten has two 3 watt Luxeons, right? The P4s are about twice as efficient as the Luxeons so a single P4 should be similar brightness, no?

In any case, I am still leaning towards the Apex at the moment if only because I'm a sucker for having a bright light. I can always run it on it's lower settings, right? I also like the fact that the Apex has the 5mm LEDs for a floodier close-up light though if they're very blue I think they'll have to go so that I can find something with a nicer white shade. I think I'm too anal about that sometimes. I can't stand incandescent lights anymore. They're generally much too yellow. LEDs with a major bluish tinge are equally as bad. I can tolerate a faint blue tint, the kind that still looks mostly white. I know the Nichias in the Apex tend to be a bit bluish so I guess I will just play it by ear, er eye.

 

[peteybaby]

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=141392
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=154405
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=155024

 

[barkingmad]

Another +1 for the EOS (modded) - very easy to do and one of the big things I like is the single headband (just around the sides rather than over your head) plus the battery pack is integral.

Takes 3 x AAA batteries - would probably recommend rechargeable Sanyo Eneloop AAA's (if you might not use / charge it as frequently) or their 1000mah (non-LSD) NiMH batteries for maximum capacity / runtime.

 

[scottaw]

Please don't think my first post was in any way bashing the apex, i love mine, i promise.

As far as seoul modding mine, im a little leery of taking apart expensive things that still have warranties. Don't get me wrong, i'd love a seoul in there, but i just don't know the first thing about modding.

And as far as 123A's, i don't carry them b/c they're lighter or anything, it's just that a lot of my lights use them, so they've become standard fare around my house, and i find them very reliable.

 

[Beaker]

Agreed. No way would I EVER be able to convince the other half that a $300+ light is a good thing. The Apex is going to be a hard enough sell. Would I be right in guessing that a modded Apex would kick out about as much light as the Sten though? I mean, the Sten has two 3 watt Luxeons, right? The P4s are about twice as efficient as the Luxeons so a single P4 should be similar brightness, no?

In any case, I am still leaning towards the Apex at the moment if only because I'm a sucker for having a bright light. I can always run it on it's lower settings, right? I also like the fact that the Apex has the 5mm LEDs for a floodier close-up light though if they're very blue I think they'll have to go so that I can find something with a nicer white shade. I think I'm too anal about that sometimes. I can't stand incandescent lights anymore. They're generally much too yellow. LEDs with a major bluish tinge are equally as bad. I can tolerate a faint blue tint, the kind that still looks mostly white. I know the Nichias in the Apex tend to be a bit bluish so I guess I will just play it by ear, er eye.

No idea about modding -- that's not my thing.

In smallish (Northern California) caves, running the 5mm leds on "hi" is plenty of light... I find that I run that way 95% of the time, with occasional switch to the 3W center Luxeon for spot work. Using hi-capacity NiMH AA's I get about 8hours runtime that way.

 

[Strauss]

I have an Apex Pro and love it. I run 3.7V RCR's in it, and if I am going on a long trip I just bring some spare primaries with me. I used mine stock for quite awhile, but have since swapped to a Seoul P4 LED and an IMS 20mm reflector. I did have to shave down the top off the reflector to get it to fit.....but it was worth it :twothumbs

I did some metering with my lightbox before and after the LED swap. These were my results(all figures are actual "torch" lumens):

Stock:
high- ~55 lumens
low- ~25 lumens

Seoul P4 LED w/ reflector:
high- ~130 lumens
low- ~60 lumens

Swapping the LED and optic out was a HUGE improvement. Wonderful tint(USVOI emitter), blinding output, and a very smooth beam. If you need any help with modding yours, I would be more than happy to help.

 

[f22shift]

what about the newer river rock k2 headlamp? 25 bux at target. 85 lumens on high
beam a bit tight for close up work.

 

[Sarratt]

A word of warning/advice..... don't get the Orange colour Apex. All others are fine but the orange has had incidents of slight but visible cracks.

 

[cave dave]

what about the newer river rock k2 headlamp? 25 bux at target. 85 lumens on high
beam a bit tight for close up work.

There have been reports that if you leave it on continuously it overheats and melts the plastic. You get what you pay for I guess.

 

[f22shift]

Yeah i saw that thread. I bought one anyway and ran it for 2 hours straight and although it got hot it never melted. I dumped it since i felt it was uncomfortable to have the extra weight of a back battery pack. I still think it's a good value for someone looking for a nice output . It's easy to return if it doesn't live up to someone's standard.

 

[greenLED]

Swapping the LED and optic out was a HUGE improvement. Wonderful tint(USVOI emitter), blinding output, and a very smooth beam. If you need any help with modding yours, I would be more than happy to help.

Could you please post pics of your modded Apex? I thought the IMS20 was too small compared to the stock optic to fit. Have you tried it with the stock optic?