PWM Soft-starter design discussion

JimmyM

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I've been posting here and there about an idea I have for a PWM softstarter. So I figured I just consolidate the discussion.

There are plenty of bulbs that can stand higher voltages if the voltage is ramped up instead of just closing a switch. However the choices were pretty limited. You had to buy a regulator that offered soft-starting as a feature. The choices are AWRs Hotdriver and the rare as Hen's teeth PIR by winny. They both have their advantages (actual regulation) and disadvantages (limited power handling and cost).
I really just wanted a way to soft-start a really powreful incan. The hotdriver has ragged edge reliability and the PIR is complex.
So I figured a solution would be a PWM driver that ramps it's duty cycle from 0 to 100% over a period of time. That time needs to be adjustable from almost 0 seconds to about a second. The fact that the MOSFET is either full on or full off, means that the ramp up time isn't limited by the heat dissipation ability of the MOSFET. It will go from fully on to fully off in less than a microsecond.

My design is as follows.
A Micrel MIC1557 oscillator runs at about 1kHz producing a sawtooth wave. The voltage of the sawtooth varies from 1/3 of the operating voltage to 2/3. That signal is sent to a comparator that compares the sawtooth signal to the voltage determined by a voltage divider (2 resistors that go from + to -). If the voltage divider's voltage is 50% of the operating voltage, the comparator will turn on when the sawtooth is below that voltage and off when it's above. if you adjust the voltage divider you can control the percentage of time that the comparator's output is on.
A low voltage at the divider means low duty cycle, high voltage means high duty cycle. Now, remember that whole 1/3-2/3 thing from before? Well, if you adjust the voltage divider so that it's voltage is above 2/3 of the operating voltage, the comparator's output is on all the time.
If you hook that output to a MOSFET you now have a high current/low resistance switch that operates at 1kHz.
A perk of the 1/3-2/3 thing is that if you hook a capacitor to the comparator input, the voltage will ramp up itself when the light is turned on. Well, when you first turn the light in the capacitir starts charging very quickly. That's bad for soft-starting. BUT since the comparator won't even start switching on the MOSFET until the capacitor has charged to 1/3 of the operating voltage, the "ramp up" voltage is less steep, and therefore starts more gently. So instead of ramping up VERY quickly at first and then tapering off almost indefinitely. It's a lot more linear. That is good for soft-starting.

The parts list is as follows.
1 Micrel MIC1557 oscillator (produces the sawtooth wave)
1 Linear Technology LT1716 Comparator (turns sawtooth to square wave)
1 Texas Inst TPS2819 Mosfet driver (ensures the MOSFET switches hard and fast)
1 International Regulator IRLR7843 or IRF1324 MOSFET.
A few resistors and capacitors.

That adds up the ability to control the ramp up time almost indefinitely and cap the duty cycle at something less than 100%. So you can limit the output voltage to a percentage of the input voltage.

Total cost of electronic components is about $10. Believe it or not, the bare etched boards themselves could cost $20 a piece if I were to have them made.

So.... Thoughts?
 
As much as I understand about this, and previous posts, it sounds like something very useful. Do you have a prototype of it tested?
 
I love the idea of a softstart, but I'm a bit fuzzy on if this can easily be integrated with a hotdriver or a newer/more reliable high voltage version of a hotdriver. Are you investigating this as an addon to a hotdriver or instead of a hotdriver?

I'm personally in the market for softstart and hotdriver type functionality in the 18-30V range all mounted on a Kiu, with icing too...

Of course if you ever get into a real, adjustable PWM at higher voltages and amperages, I'd be all over that sucker!
 
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You don't need so many components - there are plenty opamp/comparator PWM circuits.

Like the top one of these.

www.4qdtec.com/pwmmod.html

The non-linearity in the triangle wave makes no difference to the PWM output and your soft start cap can go on the input with a pot to control speed.

At 1kHz, IMO, you will not need a gate driver chip as the mosfet will switch plenty fast enough and the slightly slower switching edges will prevent it becoming a radio transmitter.

Steve
 
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I love the idea of a softstart, but I'm a bit fuzzy on if this can easily be integrated with a hotdriver or a newer/more reliable high voltage version of a hotdriver. Are you investigating this as an addon to a hotdriver or instead of a hotdriver?
The hotdriver already has soft-start. You don't need to go through the trouble of implementing PWM just for soft start, but of course PWM would allow it to function as a regulator too.
 
The hotdriver already has soft-start. You don't need to go through the trouble of implementing PWM just for soft start, but of course PWM would allow it to function as a regulator too.

Softstarting and regulation have nothing to do with each other. A linear softstart will burn up the MOSFET. A PWM driven MOSFETwon't burnup. PWM versus Linear, it's just a different mode of operation.
It would physically replace the HD, but only do soft-starting. It would have an almost unlimited power handling under 40 volts. The IRLR7843 works up to 30 volts (3.3 mOhm) while the IRF1324 is good to 24V (0.8 mOhm).

How about some of those simpler designs? Where can I find them? I thought 4 SOT-23 packages was pretty simple. The gate driver also has a voltage regulator built into it. It would serve double duty.
 
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Was merely explaining to Action why you would not need this circuit with a hotdriver. But here's AWR's PWM-free soft-start only circuit and Burnt Retina's excellent one (too bad the schematic is gone; maybe PM him?). Willie Hunt seems to not believe soft-start actually extends bulb life when used with a regulator.
That adds up the ability to control the ramp up time almost indefinitely and cap the duty cycle at something less than 100%. So you can limit the output voltage to a percentage of the input voltage.
Sounds like most of the components for regulation are there to me, missing only a mechanism to increase duty cycle as input voltage falls.
 
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Was merely explaining to Action why you would not need this circuit with a hotdriver. But here's AWR's PWM-free soft-start only circuit and Burnt Retina's excellent one (too bad the schematic is gone; maybe PM him?). Willie Hunt seems to not believe soft-start actually extends bulb life when used with a regulator.
Sounds like most of the components for regulation are there to me, missing only a mechanism to increase duty cycle as input voltage falls.
No problem. The PWM free soft-start would incinerate if used to start a powerful incan in more than few milliseconds. Even with regulation it only limits VOLTAGE. Voltage isn't necessary the killer, it's the giant current spike on startup. Now current regulation would be awesome.


The regulation is the tricky part. You have to smooth-out the voltage at the output so the regulator chip sees a smooth input. But you don't want to start hangin inductors and caps off of it just to smooth the few uA to the regulator. I'd have to build a suitable "sample" circuit.
That's step 2.
 
Hi Jimmy

Posted this elsewhere so re-posting in this more appropriate thread

Hi Jimmy


Been watching all these posts on the big bulbs here and in the Most Powerful thread and noting your comments on your PWM softstarter - so these are my thoughts / wishes . . .

A PWM softstarter is nice for starters (no pun intended) but as you have mentioned a "max" Pot to set an upper cutoff at a certain % duty cycle would also be great as this would help with those pesky bulbs that fall into the gaps if using Lithiums - driving at 16 or 17 NiMh means it's in the space between 5 and 6 Li so while full PWM regulation would no doubt be nice, a great part of the way there would be your PWM-softstarter with a max-trim pot !

This would probably be great for driving a 65W-IRC or a 458 from 6xLi-D
or a 50WIRC from 6xLi-C to get max overdrive ( at least for a while) and should stress the cells less and get a slightly flatter discharge curve too . . . also works for running 18NiMh similarly - no wasting space with dummy cells !

Also ! while on the wish list ! ! ! how about a simple low V cutoff pot at a preset V (if that's not to difficult and doesn't add to much to the complexity etc.) as this would help no end with the unprotected D cells. Bit wary these days as I have killed 2 other cells by over-discharging them acidentally - only fatal to the cells thank goodness.

Keep up the good work :wave:

Pete


Simple is Good

If the overall dimensions (diameter) can be kept small enough to fit in a C-Tube (C-Kiu diameter is way small) then this would no doubt also be helpful ! may be able to work a design to drop into a C tail ?

Cheers Pete
 
My first goal will be to get it to fit under a D-Kiu. BUT, If I could build a double decker, 1 for oscillator/driver and an upper deck for the MOSFET itself. It could fit into the barrel of a C body.
The circuitry is components are super small. Other than the MOSFET, the biggest thing is a SOT-23 package.

I can't wait to get some time to do this. The frequency is pretty low, I shouldn't have ground-plane issues or other circuit trace black magic.
 
Yes actually. I was hesitant to post because I haven't bought the parts yet.

Design is final and tested. It incorporates a small voltage regulator to keep the control electronics at roughly 12 volts. That allows it to have a battery voltage of up to 24 volts with the IRF1324 MOSFET and up to 38 volts with an IRF2804 MOSFET.
My test set up was a 20A 13V bench supply running an Osram 64623 bulb.
Just tonight I tested it at ~50% duty cycle and let it run for about an hour. The MOSFET, an IRF1324, barely got warm at all. Then I tested it at about 95% duty, for another 30-40 minutes and it cooled off. At 100%, it runs at room temperature indefinitely. It soft starts over the course of about 0.5-0.75 seconds. It can be double or triple tapped. Something that would toast a hot driver. It does not have a low voltage cutout however.
Right now I'm building the PCB layout. A real pain in the A** since I don't have any design software.
The pain here is that I'll be etching the boards myself since I don't want to go to the expense of having them done professionally. I've done this before a few dozen times, it's just time consuming.
My goal is to keep it as "cheap" as possible. I'm hoping for $15-$20 each.
I'll be building all of them without MOSFETs then soldering in the MOSFET of choice of the buyer. 12-22 volts would select the IRF1324, 12-38 volts would selct the IRF2804. The 2804 is about $8 versus the 1324 at $5.
You can even bypass the on board regulator and use it from ~7.2V to 16V for soft-starting a 5761 or Mag85 if you want. However, since the gate of the MOSFET is driven by the exact battery voltage, the lower voltage applications results in a slightly higher MOSFET resistance. It shouldn't be an issue since the heaviest draw application in the 7.2 volt range is the 64275/5761 @ about 6.5-7 amps.
The trim pot on the board allows the maximum duty cycle to be set by the user. This is NOT a regulator, but you can limit the output by turning it down to a percentage of battery voltage.
From it's lowest setting, it will soft-start gently to ~50% duty cycle. As you turn it, you increase the duty cycle to which it gently soft-starts. At about 3/4 of full turn, it will soft-start gently (0.5-0.75 seconds) to 100%. As you turn it further, it just starts quicker. Cheap and simple. You could even mount an external potentiometer to allow external control of dimming.
Once I have a PCB design, I'll order the parts and build a few.


Any updates on this? Sounds interesting for my next hotwire build
 
Hi Jimmy

Sounds great - love the max. trim pot - just what we need to get the best from our Lions.

Anybody got a spare Mag-7C knocking around that they don't need ? :whistle:

Count me in . . .

Cheers Pete
 
Right now I'm building the PCB layout. A real pain in the A** since I don't have any design software.

No SW? Is this by choice? I know many of the packages have a learning curve, but the thought of using MS Paint....:eeew:

Here's a dated link, but a good starting point.

If the boards get complex, I've heard good things about Sparkfun, but haven't used them myself.
 
Thanks for the tips. I got it done with Visio. I've got a multi-layer board layout and I only had to use one jumper. Bit of a pain in the a**, but it's done, including the drill markers for wires and mounting screws. Now I need to get some toner transfer materials. Anyone had any luck using a laser printer, glossy photo paper and an iron?

I just contacted 4pcb.com to get a copy of their software and give this a try the PROPER way.

No SW? Is this by choice? I know many of the packages have a learning curve, but the thought of using MS Paint....:eeew:

Here's a dated link, but a good starting point.

If the boards get complex, I've heard good things about Sparkfun, but haven't used them myself.
 
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Now I need to get some toner transfer materials. Anyone had any luck using a laser printer, glossy photo paper and an iron?

Yes, it actually worked better than I expected. Unfortunately, the "right" paper can be hard to find. I used google to find the most recent articles from people doing it at the time, and still bought 3 kinds of glossy paper before I found one I was happy with (fine lines).

Here's the first and best info I found:
http://www.fullnet.com/~tomg/gooteepc.htm
 
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