Question: M60F vs. M60 with a SF FM34 diffuser on C2?

[bullfrog]

Well it seems that I'm coming up with a post a day - the curiosity just doesn't end!!!

Now that I've found my new vice, Malkoffs (M60L and M60 on the way), I was actually wondering about flood options for my C2:

How does the M60F compare to the M60 with a Surefire FM34 beam diffuser? Price aside, Are they pretty much equal in performance?

I want to pull the trigger on one of 'em and would appreciate your thoughts...

Thanks in advance!

 

[PhantomPhoton]

You're likely not going to be able to tell much (if any) difference with eh diffuser on. IN terms of output and runtime they have identical performance. Without the diffuser the M60 will have better throw.

 

[Bullzeyebill]

Depends on how much output the FM34 diffuser reduces used with an M60. If it in the neighborhood of 10% loss due to the diffuser then there will probably not be much difference between the two. I think that the MM60F, which has a diffuser built into the optic, losses some output compared to the stock M60. The advantage of the FM34 is the ability to have flood or throw on demand.

Bill

 

[precisionworks]

MM60F, which has a diffuser built into the optic

Not a diffuser, but a wide angle optic that gives a 25° included beam angle, versus 8° for the standard M60. Lumen output of both are identical.

I would think that any additional lens in front of the main lens would cause a 5% lumen drop. The M60LL with no lens made (IIRC) 64 lumens ... with a Pyrex lens it read 62 lumens ... with the Lexan lens it was 61 lumens. The M60 should show a similar drop due to an additional reflecting surface in the path of the beam.

 

[zven]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with PhantomPhoton that you won't be able to tell a difference, and that the M60 with FM34 will give more throw.

So, I do have to admit that I don't have the M60F, but I do have the M60 (which is in a C2 HA with FM34), and an M60LF (in a plain G2). First off, as PhantomPhoton and others stated, output and runtime between the modules is identical. And, of course, as others have stated, putting the diffuser in front of the lens will lead to a little bit of a loss of lumens. However, testing this repeatedly with my M60 and FM34, I can BARELY tell the difference (to the point where I may very well be imagining it). If it does exist, I'd say it's a 5% drop in brightness. So, in terms of brightness, you might notice a SLIGHT output advantage of the M60F as compared to the diffused M60, although in real use, such a difference won't be noticed.

Moving on, then, to the beam pattern. This is where you see a pretty significant difference between the M60F and the diffused M60. The M60 with FM34 on gives you a HUGE wall of light. It's spectacularly bright all the way across it's very wide beam. The M60F optic, while giving you a "flood" light, produces a beam about half as wide as the M60 with FM34. Comparing the two, the M60 with FM34 will feel like a true and awesome flood light, while the M60F will feel almost like a light designed for throw, with an obnoxiously tight hotspot. In my experience, this will make the M60 with FM34 much more useful if your intent is to light things up within a range of probably 35 feet. If you need to light up wide areas beyond that, then the M60F will perform better, as it has much better throw than the M60 with FM34. (Of course, if you need to light up something much further away than 35-50 feet, the un-diffused M60 will perform MUCH better than the M60F.)

In the end, these are definitely different lights. To some extent, your choice should depend on what you need to light up and where. If indoors, the M60 with FM34 will let you see a larger portion of a room at a single instant. Outdoors, the M60F will likely be superior (up to distances of 50 or maybe 65 feet, or 100 feet at the very max), as the 25 degree beam is about perfect for such medium-range illumination. Of course, if you expect to be outdoors and need to see 200 feet away, then you need the M60.

My personal choice between the two is definitely the M60 with FM34. I carry my C2/M60/FM34 combination everyday (along with an L1), and it gets used frequently. Most often I use the light with the diffuser on, indoors for looking for things. But when I'm outdoors (and I live in a rural area), the M60 with FM34 flipped off is what I go to when I need to see something far away. That said, I use my G2 with M60LF as my primary light on nighttime walks and such, given its superiority in the 35-65 foot range, as well as the output/runtime ratio. Either way, you can't go wrong, but the M60 with FM34 will give you much better flexibility, as well as a better flood, and a better spot. For me, I tend to view the M60F as a compromise between the spot and flood, for when you don't want the extra price/bulk of the FM34.

 

[OceanView]

Zven, thanks for your real world observations. That's a great post. :thumbsup:

 

[matt0]

x2, Thanks for your observations zven!

I've seen a few beamshots of lights with an FM34 and I've sen a few beam shots of the M60F but, since they're from different people and different objects are being lit up, it's hard to tell a difference.

I think I will end up going with the M60 + FM34....

 

[zven]

Glad my experience could prove useful. I'll try to get some beamshots as well, but that'll have to wait a few hours, since it's broad daylight at the moment.

 

[bullfrog]

Wow Zven - thanks for sharing your experiences with us. If only getting reliable information on the stock market was this easy! I'll be looking forward to those beamshots :naughty:

I will be placing an order for a FM34 for my C2 M60 tonight. I guess it will also make it easier as I can use it on my M60L as well - love those run times!

Thanks again!

 

[zven]

Alright, I'm back, and this time with beamshots. I'm not very practiced with beamshots yet, so bear with me if they're less helpful than my previous text on the matter. Anyway, here goes:

Indoor beamshots (indoor shots were taken at ISO 80, sunlight whitebalance, .5 second exposure, f/2.8, except the normal lighting shot, which was on auto):

Overall comparison:

G2 + M60LF:



C2 + M60 + FM34 flipped ON:



Outdoor beamshots (outdoor shots were taken at ISO 200, sunlight whitebalance, 15 second exposure, f/2.8):

Overall comparison:

G2 + M60LF:



C2 + M60 + FM34 flipped ON:



C2 + M60 + FM34 flipped OFF:



I would've included the G3L with stock P60L in the indoor comparison beamshots, but I accidentally took it at a different shutter speed than the rest of the photos. Also, if you guys want bigger versions of the C2 not diffused inside, or G3L outside, let me know, and I can post them.

So with that, I'll just add one last note, that the beamshots more or less show what my eye is seeing in actual use. Mind you that the M60F would be brighter than my M60LF, but tight beam relative to the M60 with diffusion would be the same. Also, I think my eye sees a lot more throw with the M60 than is picked up in the photo, relative to the M60LF, etc.

Oh, and a completely unrelated side-note: this beamshot comparison (I compared all my lights, not just the ones here; let me know if you want to see some of those) has given me a much greater respect for my SF L1, and a lot less for my stock SF P60L lamp. The L1's throw truly rivals that of my M60, and its output is much closer to that of my M60LF than it is to my P60L. And the P60L... for its output, you'd think it would get a LOT better than a measly three and a half hours of runtime on two CR123's...

[Edit: I just compared my G3L to another G2L, and apparently the batteries in my G3L are running out of juice. So the beamshot of the G3L should be a bit better than it appears, and I guess I'd have to retract some of my negativity towards the output of the P60L. Still, it'd be hard to convince me that there's any better output/runtime combo than that of the M60L/M60LF.]

 

[matt0]

THANK YOU!!!!!

 

[OceanView]

Very nice beamshots, Zven! The indoor shots, in particular, really demonstrate what you were describing in your earlier post. Actually, now I want to get an FM34!

 

[kurni]

Thanks for the thread and for all responses; I'm glad having ordered FM34 together with my C2 & Dereelight 5A Q2 smooth reflector.

I'm looking forward to my toys.

 

[bullfrog]

Sven, excellent shots!!!

Thanks again for your time and help - a picture really does say 1,000 words. Love the sheer intensity of your M60 shots. I will be counting the days until my FM34 gets here from batterystation.com! (and maybe even ordering an LF from Malkoff )

And I totally agree on the L1 - I haven't used mine in a while (its in my emergency kit) and just flipped it on and fell back in love w/ my first surefire. I've been using my E1B for a 1 cell. I forgot how much I like the 10 lm low and how light it is as well, especially compared to the heft of my C2 with the Malkoff.

Thanks again!

 

[mega_lumens]

Thanks for the thread and for all responses; I'm glad having ordered FM34 together with my C2 & Dereelight 5A Q2 smooth reflector.

I'm looking forward to my toys.

I finally bought a SF C2 and I want to beef it up with a good LED mod. Before I start ordering I want to know if there is anything much brighter than M60 and with quality on the market right now? How does the Deree Q2 compare to M60 in brightness?

 

[zven]

I finally bought a SF C2 and I want to beef it up with a good LED mod. Before I start ordering I want to know if there is anything much brighter than M60 and with quality on the market right now? How does the Deree Q2 compare to M60 in brightness?

I don't own the Dereelight module, so someone else should probably confirm this, but:

The M60 is one of the brightest there is at the moment. In terms of real use, it's on par with any other quality Q5 drop-in, and may even exceed some R2 drop-ins. I'd expect not to notice a significant difference in output between a Dereelight Q5 module and an M60.

That said, the Dereelight Q2 will likely be noticeably dimmer than the M60, though it may have a more pleasing tint. I'm not sure if the added brightness of the M60 (or other Q5 drop-in) would still be noticeably in real-world use, but you'd likely notice it in ceiling bounce tests and the like.

Personally, if I were in the market for a multi-mode drop-in, I'd probably opt for the Dereelight Q2 5A, rather than a Q5 drop-in, because of its warm tint. That said, I prefer single-mode drop-ins, and as I recall, there isn't one for the Q2 5A from Dereelight, and for that you won't find better build quality than the Malkoff. (Of course, you should consider other things, like beam pattern; a Dereelight module with smooth reflector will likely have more throw than the M60, for example; other modules, like the M60F, will have infinitely smoother beams, but with less throw.)

 

[MrGman]

I don't have the separte diffuser for the Surefire but you may want to compare these beamshots of M60 and M60F along with other flashlights as part of your review.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=205842

I have also made my own diffusers that work quite well by sanding down the clear plastic of 2 liter soda bottles with 320 grit sand paper on a small orbital sander and cutting to size.