Remove the muffler from your Prius...

[Monocrom]

We are not bashing, we are saying it's not the best out here as it is made out to be and there are more realistic/economic options.

No worries. It's clear whom he's most upset at.

I got similar comments from a different CPFer, after posting that I didn't like the SF E1B. Then I posted why.... Based on personal experience. It's common to get accused of bashing, if you point out the negative features of any product that someone considers to be the greatest thing to come out since sliced bread. Personally, I don't consider it bashing to point out real disadvantages based on experiencing them; with any given product.

I'll let my previous posts speak for themselves.

But here's an interesting question that I invite any CPFer to check out for himself.... "What's needed to actually make a fuel-cell?"

Here's a hint.... Some of the more hardcore enviornmentalists are not going to like the answer.

As far as EV models go, perhaps I should clarify that I'm not a mechanic or an EV specialist. But I can tell you what I've experienced while using older EV models. Let's see, should I go with my personal experiences in using EV models at work. Or, should I listen to a group of so-called experts telling me that such vehicles are reliable; even several years down the road....

Ah, yeah.... I'm going to go with long-term personal experience. Cause I'm crazy like that.

 

[gadget_lover]

The fuel cell is a no brainer. They suck. Hydrogen as a "fuel" is an attempt by the US auto industry to deflect attention from the fact that they have not made better cars. Batteries, on the other hand, are working pretty well now. The computerized charging equipment and advanced chemistries have extended the life of a battery pack to far beyond what is needed to be practical.

Please tell, Monocrom, what EVs you are using that go bad so fast? Are we talking golf carts, fork lifts or locomotives? Nuclear Subs? Home built electric conversions? Roomba vacuums?

Like all electronics, EVs last best when used as designed, and in the environment for which they are designed. Older models allowed mistakes like over discharging. Newer models (like the better flashlights) prevent use that will damage the system.

And that brings us back to the topic. The better hybids are designed as a system. Because they are quiet they don't have as much sound deadening material to haul around. Add beepers and sqwuakers and you will also have to add more sound proofing. Well, My car would need it.

Daniel

 

[Monocrom]

Please tell, Monocrom, what EVs you are using that go bad so fast? Are we talking golf carts, fork lifts or locomotives? Nuclear Subs? Home built electric conversions? Roomba vacuums?

Well obviously I was talking about cars. The job site uses Toyota RAV4 models. Nothing like patrolling in the summer time, only to have one shut off for no apparent reason at all. The place I work at also has a strict policy that the EVs don't get taken on the highway. And despite the fact that one of my bosses makes more money than state Troopers, he still gets called over when one can't hold a charge anymore.... He gets called over to push it back to the internal refueling station at work.

 

[gadget_lover]

The Rav4? That's surprising. Per Darell's web site those were made for fleet uses from 1996 to 2003. Some private parties bought them too.

Some of the EV models at work would be charged overnight, would show a full charge; and then would suddenly shut off for no apparent reason at all. Gauge was showing a full charge nearly a minute ago. Now the battery is drained, and the car has shut itself off.

That sure sounds like batteries that have reached the end of their life cycle. I hope that you have replaced the battery packs, since heavy duty use of old technology NiMH batteries will ensure a life of only a few years. Your newest Rav4 is at least 5 years old. The quote about just pushing them back to the charging station suggests that if there is an error code, it's being ignored.

Nothing like patrolling in the summer time, only to have one shut off for no apparent reason

Yep. I agree. My mom's Ford LTD used to do that every few months. My first car ( a Rambler) used to do that too. Come to think of it, I've only had a few cars that, at some time or another, did not "just stop running" at a bad time. My hybrid, however, is not one of them.

Daniel

 

[Bullzeyebill]

You two guys, two of CPF's finest in my opinion, just do not agree on the subject of electric cars, and continuing your disagreement with subtle, and not so subtle jabs, will not lend too much to this thread. I personally am in the middle re the merits of gas vs diesel, vs electric. My first Saturn, a gas driven SL1, got 40 miles to the gallon on Hwy 5 in CA doing 80 miles an hours, on a regular basis, and I should have kept that car.

Bill

 

[gadget_lover]

Every once in a while you find a car that is just perfect for you and your style of driving. In 1980 I had a Mitsubishi built Dodge Colt squareback that got around 40 mpg at freeway speeds. It was about the size of a Mini Cooper, but my kids were young enough that the back seat, small as it was, worked OK.

It's little 4 cylinder 1.4 liter OHC engine was quiet enough that I often snuck up on people in parking lots. It would have been a dream to park if it had power steering.

Daniel

 

[Diesel_Bomber]

Ridiculous. The tire/bearing/brake noise is louder than the engine on most cars anyway. How about people(gasp!) watch where they're driving and take responsibility for their actions? I know, I know........crazy talk........

The term "hybrid" as it's applied to the models available in the USA irks me. They're not hybrids, they run on gasoline, period. Sure they have a novel powertrain design that is more efficient for some forms of driving, but the only energy they use is gasoline. Now, a PHEV, THAT is a hybrid.

:buddies:

 

[TigerhawkT3]

How about installing one of the back-up buzzers usually found on heavy equipment, but setting it so that it never turns off? Maybe ordinary ICE-only cars could have them too, so they wouldn't be drowned out. Imagine it - a crowded thoroughfare would be home to a symphony of beeps, each with its own unique voice. The blind - everyone, for that matter - would be in no danger of getting hit by a too-silent car... until they went insane from the racket and threw themselves under some tires to get some peace and quiet. I know it's not ideal, but you win some, you lose some, right? Can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs, right? People in glass houses sink ships, right?

Seriously though, maybe a state-funded program to provide a seeing-eye dog to those who can't afford one but still want to cross streets like everyone else? Does that already exist? I have no idea how service dogs are assigned. How does that work, exactly? :thinking:

 

[Hooked on Fenix]

The Rav4? That's surprising. Per Darell's web site those were made for fleet uses from 1996 to 2003. Some private parties bought them too.



That sure sounds like batteries that have reached the end of their life cycle. I hope that you have replaced the battery packs, since heavy duty use of old technology NiMH batteries will ensure a life of only a few years. Your newest Rav4 is at least 5 years old. The quote about just pushing them back to the charging station suggests that if there is an error code, it's being ignored.



Yep. I agree. My mom's Ford LTD used to do that every few months. My first car ( a Rambler) used to do that too. Come to think of it, I've only had a few cars that, at some time or another, did not "just stop running" at a bad time. My hybrid, however, is not one of them.

Daniel

Just to let you know, hybrids aren't perfect and can stop running at the worst time also. On my sister's wedding day, she borrowed my dad's 2001 Prius to visit her future inlaws right before her wedding. Half-way back in to town, the hybrid battery (NiMH) overheated and the car just shut down to protect the battery. It may have been as high as 110 degrees F at the time. My dad and I had to drive out and get the car. My dad had to blast the air conditioner to keep the battery cool. The best battery chemistry for dealing with extreme heat and cold is a SLA battery. Hybrids would be too heavy if they used that battery and environmentalists would go nuts if they were used too. I bought a 2009 Toyota Corolla because I wanted good gas mileage without sacrificing longevity of the car. The truth is that the more complicated something is, the more things there are that can break or fail. No car is perfect. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. Just get the car that fits your needs best and remember that the best car for you may be the worst for someone else. I know that in Canada, daytime running lights are required so hybrids would never run on just the battery (you wouldn't get any better gas mileage than a regular car). Canada gets cold in winter at temperatures that a hybrid would easily fail. Just an example of how the best car for you can be the worst car for someone else. Buy what you need whether it's a hybrid, regular car, diesel, or other vehicle. Don't let other people's opinions sway you about what's best for you.

 

[RyanA]

How about installing one of the back-up buzzers usually found on heavy equipment, but setting it so that it never turns off? Maybe ordinary ICE-only cars could have them too, so they wouldn't be drowned out. Imagine it - a crowded thoroughfare would be home to a symphony of beeps, each with its own unique voice. The blind - everyone, for that matter - would be in no danger of getting hit by a too-silent car... until they went insane from the racket and threw themselves under some tires to get some peace and quiet. I know it's not ideal, but you win some, you lose some, right? Can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs, right? People in glass houses sink ships, right?

Seriously though, maybe a state-funded program to provide a seeing-eye dog to those who can't afford one but still want to cross streets like everyone else? Does that already exist? I have no idea how service dogs are assigned. How does that work, exactly? :thinking:

They're assigned to the first blind guy they attack. Most are retired police dogs, and the blind are notorious criminals.

 

[Glen C]

They're assigned to the first blind guy they attack. Most are retired police dogs, and the blind are notorious criminals.

Ryan, I am laughing my head off here at that comment :laughing::laughing::laughing:

Tiger hawk, the dogs are normally trained by volunteers working through organisations who then distribute them free. Here is the US list:

• American Council of the Blind
• American Foundation for the Blind
• Arizona Center for the Blind and Visually Impaired
• Delta Society
• The Foundation Fighting Blindness
• Guide Dogs for the Blind, Inc.
• Guide Dog Foundation for the Blind, Inc.
• Guiding Eyes for the Blind
• Leader Dogs for the Blind
• National Library Service for the Blind and Physically Handicapped
• National Federation of the Blind
• Recording for the Blind and Dyslexic
• The Seeing Eye, Inc.

There has been a tremendously simple but good use of technology in the last few months for the blind, an Aussie developed a handheld barcode scanner which speaks. It means blind people can now cook or work out what an item is, say a CD, by scanning. It is hard to imagine not being able to tell the difference between a can of beetroot and a can of soup

 

[KC2IXE]

Ridiculous. The tire/bearing/brake noise is louder than the engine on most cars anyway. How about people(gasp!) watch where they're driving and take responsibility for their actions? I know, I know........crazy talk........

...snip...

Hey, put a speaker there, and hook it to an MP3 player that plays in motion - I'll put on the Jetson's car sound effect

 

[gadget_lover]

They all have their strengths and weaknesses.

Very true.

But I am sure that if you do research, you will find that heat, cold and running lights are not a problem for hybrids in general. Given the same conditions and treatment as other gasoline fueled cars will result in the same or better level of usability. Lead acid batteries are commonly heated in the north to keep them from freezing. A frozen battery provides very little energy. For that matter, the engines are commonly heated in the frozen north.

I'm sorry about your sister's problem. I drive mine in 110 degree weather for several weeks out of every year, so there may have been some other contributing factor. It's not commonly a problem for the 2000 - 2003 Prius.

Running lights are low wattage, by the way. They use some energy but it's not enough to cause a significant drain on the traction battery. Certainly not enough to keep the engine running 100% of the time.

Daniel

 

[gadget_lover]

BTW, I'm not angry with anyone, nor even annoyed.

I happen to have looked very closely at the issues surrounding the hybrids before deciding to buy one. I did a lot of research at the time. I was quite pleased with what I found.

I also read hundreds of posts from people who did no research at all. These folks made up many, many imaginary faults and adamantly insisted that they were real. Some of them sounded valid on the surface, but none were based in fact.

My favorite urban legend is the $10,000 battery pack. That's funny. My least favorite is the one about batteries that blow up when rescuers are trying to save someone. Heaven forbid that a first responder reads THAT crap and let someone die for fear of the batteries.

So when I read posts that are just plain erroneous, I have a hard time ignoring them. The problem is that someone will think the errors are really a fact ("I read it on the internet!") and base decisions on those erroneous statements. The posts with the errors are often based on such posts themselves.

So I try to calmly and clearly explain why the rumors and imaginary problems are not to be believed.

No rancor is included or intended.




Daniel