sucks for whoever is traveling by air in the UK

[dragoman]

I think we are all getting alittle bit crazy here....

Obviously until there are procedures/tests in place for this type of thing, the safe thing to do is "go overboard".

I can't believe that this will last at this level for long.

BTW, I travel for a living, so the prospect of no laptop/PSP/books/iPod on an airplane terrifies me......I might have to actually talk to someone!!

Hopefully after a few days things will come down.....I'm going on vacation tomorrow, so by the time I get back we'll see....

dragoman

 

[TorchEnvy]

Yeah, I'm sure people are really pumped about throwing their light laptop bag in with all the enormous, heavy bags normally found in checked luggage. I don't trust the airlines to transport my eyeglasses or spare contact lenses unless they're with me, much less a laptop, digital camera, or cell phone!

I assume you can't even keep your cell phone now. How does that work if you've already left your checked bags down at the ticket counter?

Maybe this global warming business isn't such a bad thing, as civilization seems to be eroding by the day anyway.

 

[tygger]

thank goodness tragedy was averted. of course everyone agrees on that. but are the responses to events like this moving in the right direction? it seems mostly whats being accomplished is a complete neutering of responsible citizens, in my opinion, leaving us more vulnerable than ever. just as an idea, instead of hiring more screeners at airports, why not have every able person go through a mandatory self-defense course at the airport? or why not let people who go through some sort of certification program to carry stun guns? or something. i mean, can you imagine how screwed a terrorist would be if they were on a plane full of karate masters or 50 old ladies with stun guns? okay, that example was a little far fetched, but i honestly think (and maybe i'm wrong) that the best ways to keep people safe is to have a blend of rigorous security but also somehow allow people to be able to defend themselves should something happen. but then again, that would require a lot of work on the part of politicians, screeners, and everyone else, and as someone said earlier, its much easier to just "ban it."

 

[TigerhawkT3]

It's only easier to ban it if people agree to the ban. Alcohol was banned in the States in the 20s, and it failed miserably.

The idea to arm or train law-abiding citizens is pretty similar to the argument against gun control. "If you criminalize guns, only criminals will have guns." Washington, D.C. has a flat-out ban on firearms, and there's rampant violent crime. If it were legal to have some physical force and use it responsibly, who knows what would happen? There could be total chaos, or complete order. I can't predict the results, since no government that I know of is really trying that these days.

 

[Brighteyez]

I think 270 is off base in thinking that it is only impacting the UK, when in reality it is impacting air traffic all over Europe and the US. Seems that several of those 'sissy' European airlines are afraid of getting their multi-million dollar aircraft blown up and losing a few customers in the process. And like you mentioned airports all over the U.S. are implementing the same precautions effective immediately.

Now as a person who used to carry a sidearm on commercial flights, I can assure you that no one knows the impact of the use of a firearm inside the passenger cabin of an aircraft than the average consumers and the occasional gun nut. Nothing would give me a greater feeling of security.
<pardon me while I choke on my sarcasm>

Personally I'm concerned enough about some pilot playing cowboy and losing control of a firearm that he/she carries on-board. If a bunch of average passengers were to be armed on a flight, I'm almost thinking that I might feel safer with the terrorist

270,

You're off base on this one. When you find the kind of info that leads to this kind of thought process, you have to act and act decisively.

The US is now implementing the same flight rules, guess it isn't just those sissy British who over react?

I am a freedom loving, too much government hating, conservative, but this is the right response to a REAL threat.

I, too, have friend and relatives who are flying this week and they'll live with the minor inconvenience this creates.

My alternative, arm everyone who wants a gun on a plane! That will stop most stuff, although suicide bombers always seem to find a way, and this response is appropriate under the circumstances.

Bill

 

[B@rt]

Shoothing a hole in a pressurized plane wouldn't cause much damage, it certainly wouldn't cause people to unvolontarily exit the plane...

 

[Brighteyez]

I think Israel has a program that kind of fits that description, as do a few other countries; mandatory military service. The U.S. no longer has an active program for involuntary military conscription (i.e. Selective Service).

However a 15 minute course on the proper use of a firearm and all of the legal and moral ramifications, sounds like a great idea (shouldn't take but a few minutes, right?). People could go through it while their waiting to get to the ticket counter, and the people who missed it could view it along with the aircraft safety instructions

why not have every able person go through a mandatory self-defense course at the airport?

 

[Pellidon]

They had these round papers that they rubbed over our shoes, inside our luggage, and then placed the paper in a machine. The machine gave a readout of what chemicals were present. I thought it was pretty awesome.

Glad they caught those guys before any harm could be done!

I'm misquoting it here but it is an Ion-electro-spectrograph of sorts. Similar to what The product I work with (visible spectrophotometer) but it scans the whole spectra after sucking in any dust on the pad, zapping it with a few thousand Joules of current and analizing the spectrograph of the resultant fireball. They then can compare it to curves of known bad things (explosive residues and such). A fireball spectrophotomter version of the USB 2000 like Craig has. I have one of those but could not use it easily in my machine as I need single wavelength response and needed calculus to figure the settings. It is great for full spectrum light metering.

Very similar to a compact particle accelerator.

We have a couple of the new "Puffers" as the TSA calls them at the airport. A phone booth (remember those) sized chamber with several jets that puff air and dislodge particles for collection in an internal spectrograph. We don't have to remove our shoes if we go through the puffer.

 

[twentysixtwo]

Wonder how they deal with folks travelling with infants - gotta pack diapers, baby food, etc. etc for overseas flights......

 

[BIGIRON]

I'm all in favor of arming pilots. But realistically, if a situation gets to the point where a pilot has to employ a firearm, the game's probably pretty much over. Dodging the "cowboy" pilots bullets will be the least of my worries.

And the idea of a cabin exploding from a small bullet hole is in the same category as the dramatic exploding gas tank in a car crash. Ain't gonna happen. Too much Hollywood.

And anyone with an ATP and flying for a major airline learned long ago to control their inner cowboy.

 

[mikehill]

Wonder how they deal with folks travelling with infants - gotta pack diapers, baby food, etc. etc for overseas flights......

Still allowed, but food has to be tasted by the parent to prove it is food !
Mike.

 

[Brighteyez]

You know what they say about people in glass house throwing rocks?
I'd tread lightly on that one.

Seems to me that some US government agencies had a similar kneejerk reaction when some yo-yo tried to light his shoe. Must have worked as a deterrent though, while everyone now has to walk barefoot through the metal detector, they have yet to find a passenger with a shoe full of explosives when they the shoes go through the flouroscope.

I'd be more inclined to attribute the kneejerk decisions to a lack of knowledge on the part of appointed officials rather than it being specific to a country or culture. Besides it's not fair to blame all Brits for the actions of their officials any more than innocent Americans being held to account for the faux pas of their government officials.

you know, have the airport screeners do their job and actually check what's in the bags, not banning bags and luggage all together. Such a typical British beaurucratic response: when in doubt, ban it. Easier than putting the responsibility on the authorities....

 

[ledlurker]

I'm all in favor of arming pilots. But realistically, if a situation gets to the point where a pilot has to employ a firearm, the game's probably pretty much over. Dodging the "cowboy" pilots bullets will be the least of my worries.

And the idea of a cabin exploding from a small bullet hole is in the same category as the dramatic exploding gas tank in a car crash. Ain't gonna happen. Too much Hollywood.

And anyone with an ATP and flying for a major airline learned long ago to control their inner cowboy.

I agree with you there. A show called Myth Busters actually shot a hole in a pressurized airplane and nothing happened. Only a very large hole is a concern from explosives or strucural failure from fatigue. I am reminded of the flight in the Hawain Islands that had the top of the passenger cabin get ripped off from fatigue failure.

 

[Zigzago]

Guns might prevent a 9/11 style hijacking but they won't prevent the guy sitting 10 rows in front of you from setting off a hidden bomb. I think the carry-on restrictions are the right response until the situation is better understood.

 

[Brighteyez]

They ought to require that of the caterers who supply the in-flight meals (in the few rare cases where they still do on US airlines)

So I tend to get a kick out of hearing someone from Europe complain about the quality of the food that they received on a 40 minute flight. You'll never hear that from someone on an American flight that is less than 3 hours and does not occur within a specific time-frame, because they get no food! And if the flight does last more than 3 hours they might have to pay $5-8 for a box of food samples that would be nutritionally rejected for consumption in most prisons.

Still allowed, but food has to be tasted by the parent to prove it is food !
Mike.

 

[Brighteyez]

Right, a bullet hole is not going to cause a movie-style decompression scene like you see in the movies. And people aren't aware that they are riding in a heated cabin all of the time (not air-conditioned) when they are in the air.

But pax with guns is an invitation to disaster no matter how you want to spin it.

I agree with you there. A show called Myth Busters actually shot a hole in a pressurized airplane and nothing happened. Only a very large hole is a concern from explosives or strucural failure from fatigue. I am reminded of the flight in the Hawain Islands that had the top of the passenger cabin get ripped off from fatigue failure.

 

[James S]

i certainly can't get behind giving all passengers a gun, But I also saw the mythbusters episode

I think we're getting off course. Our police, as expert or dilbert as they might be, are reacting to a real threat as best they can. I know that they are often incompetent and overreact. However, they are reacting to a legitimate threat. how about we turn our anger to those that want to kill us rather than those that would do their best to protect us.

Or do we feel so guilty to be members of successful western style societies that we believe we deserve to die at the hands of those from countries that have not faired as well?

 

[Brighteyez]

It's not easy for those in the business of public safety (not just law enforcement) to respond to anything without criticism when they are automatically presumed guilty in everything they do and never given the opportunity to be proven innocent in the court of public opinion.

Whoever it was that said that hindsight is always 20-20 is absolutely correct. Civil Service Commissions just haven't had the foresight to require hindsight as a condition of employment in public safety jobs.

I know that they are often incompetent and overreact.

 

[BIGIRON]

As much as I dislike government intrusion into my life, I have to believe we're doing the right thing, no matter how simplistic and sometimes silly it seems.

The simple fact is, there has been no terrorist incident in CONUS since 9/11. There is no doubt in my mind that terrorist actions have been planned and maybe even attempted but have been prevented.

Don't ever forget -- we are at war. Our enemy is smart, tough, well trained and funded. They are as highly motivated as any enemy we have known. They don't want to conquer us; they don't want to convert us to Islam; they don't want us to apologize. They want us dead. Period.

We cannot win their hearts and minds. The only way we can prevail is to lock them up forever or kill them.

 

[Fat_Tony]

...how about we turn our anger to those that want to kill us rather than those that would do their best to protect us.

Or do we feel so guilty to be members of successful western style societies that we believe we deserve to die at the hands of those from countries that have not faired as well?

James, I believe that you have misidentified the cause of the anger (and maybe the "guilt", if there is indeed any guilt), caused by this action. I for one, am quite happy that these people were apprehended before they caused any harm. I hope that at the very least, they get to spend the rest of their days in the world's most depressing gray-bar motel, but I also believe that getting annoyed or angry at the knee-jerk reactions by the safety bureaucrats is justified. It appears to me that this is just one more attempt to shift the burden of proof to the average individual to prove that they are not a terrorist or criminal, and if they manage to appear non-threatening enough to pass that test, they are then rewarded by (in this case) having to endure more inconvenience than they would have endured before. Of course, I absolutely do not want to see planes downed by terrorists, but as I just had a conversation with 2 of my coworkers who feel the exact same way, I know that I cannot possibly be the only one who is willing to trade a little risk for more convenience (i.e. - a little risk for a little bit of my time). Of course, we will see in the near future if this is true or not, as people will tend to fly less if they begin to feel overburdened by restrictions. Just my 1/50th of a buck.