Surefire vs Wolf Eyes - understatement or over? :)

[MikeLip]

So I got my nifty new 9P yesterday - in stock form with the standard P90 in it. A Lumens Factory HO will be arriving today most likely.

I also have a Wolf Eyes Eagle 4A handy. Well, I have three Wolf Eyes handy, but pitting a 9P against HID is rather unfair...

The 9P has fresh batteries. The 4A is hot off the charger. The 9P is rated 105 lumens, the Eagle is 200. The Eagle, even if that 200 is emitter lumens, should be noticeably brighter than the SF, right?

Wrong. Just the reverse! The 9P has a slight edge over the Wolf Eyes, and it's whiter.

I'm not saying the WE is a piece of junk or anything - I think they make awesome lights. But wow. Something is out of whack there.

 

[cernobila]

So I got my nifty new 9P yesterday - in stock form with the standard P90 in it. A Lumens Factory HO will be arriving today most likely.

I also have a Wolf Eyes Eagle 4A handy. Well, I have three Wolf Eyes handy, but pitting a 9P against HID is rather unfair...

The 9P has fresh batteries. The 4A is hot off the charger. The 9P is rated 105 lumens, the Eagle is 200. The Eagle, even if that 200 is emitter lumens, should be noticeably brighter than the SF, right?

Wrong. Just the reverse! The 9P has a slight edge over the Wolf Eyes, and it's whiter.

I'm not saying the WE is a piece of junk or anything - I think they make awesome lights. But wow. Something is out of whack there.

You have to compare apples with apples. In reality after you convert from bulb lumens to torch lumens etc. there is only about 20 lumens difference which is not enough for us to tell the difference. One is potted D26 lamp the other is adjustable focus lamp; one uses rechargeable cells (2x 3.7) and the other CR123's (3x3). There are too many possible variables here for any meaningful comparisons.

 

[MikeLip]

You have to compare apples with apples. In reality after you convert from bulb lumens to torch lumens etc. there is only about 20 lumens difference which is not enough for us to tell the difference. One is potted D26 lamp the other is adjustable focus lamp; one uses rechargeable cells (2x 3.7) and the other CR123's (3x3). There are too many possible variables here for any meaningful comparisons.

Hmm. That's all OK, but seems to me that with the WE focused to a spot (as tight as it can be focused) it should have a brighter hotspot than the SF.

To say I was suprised is something of an understatement. Even if the WE was only 60% efficient at getting 200 emitter lumens out the front - which is pathetically bad - that's 120 out. It may be hard to tell the difference all else being equal, but I wouldn't have expected it to be *dimmer*!

This is not so much a slam on WE since of course they aren't alone in the way they specify brightness. It is praise for SF. They make a he** of a flashlight. I can't wait for my HO lamp to show up!

 

[LED61]

Not to be picky, but the title of your thread is too general. You are comparing two flashlights, not two brands. The WE Raider for example can be made much whiter and powerful than the 9P with the P90. True, the same 9P with the P91 will wipe out any WE Raider setup, but only for a few minutes, and at the expense of many 123's vs. the nice rechargeable drop in solutions for the WE Raider.

And then it would not be fair for me to post a thread about this with a similar title going the Wolf Eyes way.

 

[leukos]

I think the OP is just sharing his enthusiasm for his new light, I think that is more the spirit of CPF than completely perfect and scientific posts!

 

[MikeLip]

Not to be picky, but the title of your thread is too general. You are comparing two flashlights, not two brands. The WE Raider for example can be made much whiter and powerful than the 9P with the P90. True, the same 9P with the P91 will wipe out any WE Raider setup, but only for a few minutes, and at the expense of many 123's vs. the nice rechargeable drop in solutions for the WE Raider.

And then it would not be fair for me to post a thread about this with a similar title going the Wolf Eyes way.

That's why you comment on posts, not titles There is a limit to line length and detail that can be put in a title.

But in a way is most certainly IS about brand vs brand and the way they spec their lights. What I carry away from the experience is that when a maker tells you they are making X lumens, that doesn't necessarily mean they are brighter than another brand claiming less-than-X.

The difference in claimed output is not insignificant. WE claims TWICE the light of the SF. This is not 100 vs 120 which would be hard to differentiate without instruments. It's 105 vs 200. Even if the 200 is bulb lumens (and yes I do understand the difference between bulb output and output out the front of the light - there is no need to re-explain that) the WE should not be dimmer when focused to a tight spot.

Obviously very few people outside those here are ever going to do the comparison. I *knew* going into this - before I even bought the thing - that the WE output was certainly bulb lumens and the SF output was out the front lumens.

What does occur to me as I sit here typing this rather long reply is that SF stated output is not peak, but some sort of averaging over the "useful" life of the batteries since this is an unregulated light. So that may very well be why its fresh battery output is greater than that of the WE. The WE will never catch up, since it should be dimming as well over time. So WE may be stating peak, while SF is giving us average.

Hmmm. I need to some batteries flat and see. But one thing is for sure. I am happy with my 9P!

 

[MikeLip]

I think the OP is just sharing his enthusiasm for his new light, I think that is more the spirit of CPF than completely perfect and scientific posts!

The OP is certainly more than happy with his new toy

 

[cernobila]

Not to be picky, but the title of your thread is too general. You are comparing two flashlights, not two brands. The WE Raider for example can be made much whiter and powerful than the 9P with the P90. True, the same 9P with the P91 will wipe out any WE Raider setup, but only for a few minutes, and at the expense of many 123's vs. the nice rechargeable drop in solutions for the WE Raider.

And then it would not be fair for me to post a thread about this with a similar title going the Wolf Eyes way.

Spot on, lets face it, these lights such as the 9P, Raider or Leefbody as well as many others today are only an alloy tube for the body, another alloy tube for the bezel and a third tube for the tailcap, that's all.....then you throw in the D26 lamp and not much to it. Yes, the 9V set up is good, the P91 lamp is excellent but only if you can match it with two 18650 cells, the LF EO-9 is also very good with the HO-9 being my third choice......I still don't understand why people get lights that limit them to only the 17500/17670 cells.

 

[MikeLip]

Spot on, lets face it, these lights such as the 9P, Raider or Leefbody as well as many others today are only an alloy tube for the body, another alloy tube for the bezel and a third tube for the tailcap, that's all.....then you throw in the D26 lamp and not much to it. Yes, the 9V set up is good, the P91 lamp is excellent but only if you can match it with two 18650 cells, the LF EO-9 is also very good with the HO-9 being my third choice......I still don't understand why people get lights that limit them to only the 17500/17670 cells.

Oh, thanks. Now I have to go spend some more money!

 

[KeeperSD]

Spot on, lets face it, these lights such as the 9P, Raider or Leefbody as well as many others today are only an alloy tube for the body, another alloy tube for the bezel and a third tube for the tailcap, that's all.....then you throw in the D26 lamp and not much to it. Yes, the 9V set up is good, the P91 lamp is excellent but only if you can match it with two 18650 cells, the LF EO-9 is also very good with the HO-9 being my third choice......I still don't understand why people get lights that limit them to only the 17500/17670 cells.

There are some CPFers out there that prefer to use primaries and will only ever use them, so i guess for some it really doesn't matter what cells they can take, i can understand this for some situations, but it isn't for me and i agree with your views on cell size

I just had a look at your beam shots again cernoblia and must say that the EO9 looks whiter in your pics than the P91, is this the case in the flesh? It is a shame that you don't have a P90 in your comparison...........

 

[bondr006]

I'm with you Mike. I love my 9P. I run the LF EO-9 in it. Whether it is 380 bulb lumens or 380 out the front...I don't know. What I do know is that it is one of the brightest lights I have. It eats my BOG Q5 for lunch. The only brighter light I have is my M3T with the LF EO-M3T 450 lumen lamp...and all I got to say about the amount of light from that drop-in coming out of the turbo head is....:duck:Bring on the Tiablo's...Bring on the MRV....Bring on the DBS

 

[cernobila]

I just had a look at your beam shots again cernoblia and must say that the EO9 looks whiter in your pics than the P91, is this the case in the flesh? It is a shame that you don't have a P90 in your comparison...........

Keeper, they are very similar, because the EO-9 is 15.5W and the P91 is 20W most of the extra grunt is in the flood aspect. Our walls are not white, they are a soft warm colour while the ceiling and carpet is white. Perhaps this is why the wider beam looks warmer in colour.......As far as doing the P90 shots, I didn't bother because its in no mans land, I have a EO-4 3.7V which is 9W and a WE 9V lamp being 10.5W while the P90 is 9.5W, I would much rather the HO-9 which is 12W.

 

[cernobila]

Well, just received an Eagle 2 (and a couple of 9V lamps) from Glen at Quarterflash, stuck a 168 extender on it and fired it up with two 18650's. Now I understand that this is a flood light even in the narrow focus it is still a flood light compared to any of the D26 type bulbs.....to try and compare this to any of the 9V D26 lamps is fruitless. All of the lumens in this light are spread-out while in the D26 they are concentrated mainly in the centre.....now I understand.....

 

[Glen C]

Cernobila is right, these are wildly different beam characteristics. Personally I love the P91/9P or Raider/EO9 form factor and beam characteristics and can understand why MikeLip was so enthusiastic about his.

 

[LED61]

I don't know how you guys arrive at 20 watts in the P91.

The M6 with two stacks of 123's instead of 1 lowers operating voltage to 6.8V at best. Surely the 9P cannot do as good on one stack. So maybe 6.7V and the lamp goes at 2.5A right ? That puts us close but not quite to 17 watts is that correct ? dunno.

 

[cernobila]

I don't know how you guys arrive at 20 watts in the P91.

The M6 with two stacks of 123's instead of 1 lowers operating voltage to 6.8V at best. Surely the 9P cannot do as good on one stack. So maybe 6.7V and the lamp goes at 2.5A right ? That puts us close but not quite to 17 watts is that correct ? dunno.

I am no expert but I got my info here from "mdocod"

Cell configuration: 2x18650

Bulb Options:
LF D26 ES-9: 7W, 117 - 77 lumen in 147 minutes
LF D26 SR-9: 10W, 163 - 110 lumen in 102 minutes
LF D26 HO-9: 12W, 219 - 145 lumen in 80 minutes
LF D26 EO-9: 15.5W, 280 - 188 lumen in 60 minutes
SF P90: 9.5W, 154 - 103 lumen in 104 minutes
SF P91: 20W, 360 - 215 lumen in 43 minutes
G&P G90: 9.5W, 154 - 103 lumen in 104 minutes
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 10W xenon": 10W, 158 - 105 lumen in 104 minutes (guess)
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 15W xenon": 11W, 179 - 119 lumen in 93 minutes (guess)
Pathfinder P90: 10.5W, 167 - 112 lumen in 94 minutes
WE D26 9V: 10.5W, 179 - 119 lumen in 93 minutes
Pila GL3 LA: 10.5W, 179 - 119 lumen in 93 minutes

Body Options:
Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
Wolf-Eyes 6 series sniper (non-turbo) +ONE LRB-168 extender, + copper wire mod. ++(requires modification)

For more detail;

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=161536

 

[LED61]

Right Cernobilia, I just finished up going over your beamshots and yes I can now understand you were working that wattage on two 18650's and not three 123's.

Awesome beamshots!! I just could not relate this setup to the thread because the 9P is a no go on two 18650's. But the Leef solution with those is sure impressive.