Tactical strobe..Does it work?????

[Justin Case]

Do you think you will have enough time to switch flashlight to strobe mode when the guy had weapon pointed at you about to attack? Can you point the strobe directly to the eyes of the attacker in a split of second? Sounds not too easy. Thus it may be useless unless you have plenty of time to act, or the guy already had been under control.

These are arguments based on false premises.

First, why must I wait to use a strobe until the opponent has a weapon pointed at me and about to attack? Second, if quickly pointing a flashlight accurately is too hard, what about quickly aiming a pistol?

All of these arguments are the same tired arguments against weapons in general for self-defense. Frankly, IMO they are BS.

There is more to the use of strobing than just to disorient an opponent. Properly used, it can also make it quite difficult to estimate the position of someone conducting a deliberate clear, and hide the specific numbers of searchers.

There are also accepted physiological mechanisms for the action of strobes in disorientation. It's not just some made-up thing to sell lights.

 

[Justin Case]

I do agree that each person can easily test the strobe feature to see how they like it....however testing it in your living room with a friendly participant is much different than actually using it towards an armed suspect trying to kill you in a dark alleyway.

Same comment I gave above -- this is an argument based on a false premise. That the use of a strobe has to wait until someone is trying to kill you. In addition, why would one use an illumination tool anyway to stop the threat. Light him up with the light and shoot him with the firearm. Your argument additionally poses the false premise of using the wrong tool for the job.

Some of the more recent recruits I have seen have arrived with a duty light that has a strobe feature. After using the light in a real situation searching for real bad guys they usually realize the strobe feature is useless. I have seen the few I have trained that use the strobe feature quickly grow frustrated with the controls or "fumbling" with the light as they put it. Each and every one I have trained have quickly abandoned the strobe feature and purchased a simple, bright, one level duty light.

This sounds more like a UI failure than a strobe failure. What flashlights with strobe feature have been used? IMO, most are lame executions of the concept. Not all strobes are the same. Intensity and strobe rate a important variables.

 

[Owen]

Blah, blah, blah. Yeah, it's all soooo simple.

LMAO, it sucks when combat vets and experienced LEOs weigh in on matters of armed confrontation, doesn't it? Just screws everything up.
Here's an idea, talk to them like they're stupid, put words in their mouth, take things out of context, and give a twist their input to fit your own agenda even if it has nothing to do with anything they actually said or implied.

May all your life and death scenarios be laid out for your convenience, instead of you being on the defensive and facing infinite and constantly changing variables in situations beyond your control.

 

[Fooboy]

Blah, blah, blah. Yeah, it's all soooo simple.

LMAO, it sucks when combat vets and experienced LEOs weigh in on matters of armed confrontation, doesn't it? Just screws everything up.
Here's an idea, talk to them like they're stupid, put words in their mouth, take things out of context, and give a twist their input to fit your own agenda even if it has nothing to do with anything they actually said or implied.

May all your life and death scenarios be laid out for your convenience, instead of you being on the defensive and facing infinite and constantly changing variables in situations beyond your control.

Ha, I was thinking the same thing.

Look - Justin - if you want to use strobe, go ahead.

If you want to make a decision based on facts and data, that's another thing. Try re-reading some of the experienced-based posts above.

My .02, true weapon lights are single stage.

 

[Robocop]

Justin it is not a failure of the UI however more so a failure of human nature.....fine motor skills are gone under stress. I have trained with some of the best and I have seen the best lose motor skill while under stress.

Training is good and the more the better however again there is no training like the real thing.

 

[Chrontius]

Never used a strobe tactically, but it got a tow-truck to my position plenty fast once.

When I get around to building a paintball gun, I'm going to have an M60 with a strobing tailcap on it. Another happy effect of strobe-in-the-face is it becomes very hard to shoot back, because your front sight washes out. People tend to shoot over the heads of the strobe-weilder as they raise their weapon to try to find the sight. Not so effective in paintball where most guns lack sights and tournament rules prohibit sighting devices (?!!) but don't forget the massive scenario games that love blacktical stuff.

Someone mentioned strobes making it difficult to judge range -- they also make it difficult to tell that someone's running in zig-zags toward you as discovered in WW2 and recently declassified.

 

[Lightraven]

I was at a tactical training course in April. A guest speaker was a Navy SEAL combat vet. A non-LE civilian asked about strobing lights. "Strobes are !@#$%^&*( !@#" Sorry, his salty language isn't CPF friendly. Suffice to say, he didn't think highly of them.

Another former SEAL and tactical trainer, Jeff Gonzales, debated former SEAL, trainer and handheld strobe inventor Ken Good on the merits of strobing on another forum. So, with some SEAL trainers and combat vets not sold on the merits of strobing versus the inventor's same background, I'd say it's a wash.

I haven't strobed anybody because my #1 priority, as it should be for all LE officers, is to quickly see suspects, see their hands and see any threatening movements. This is true of a foot stop/chase, vehicle stop (I've done car and boat), or building interior sweep.

I think strobing only interferes with my visual perception for the debatable "disorientation" effect. If I need to go hands on, I usually like to prepare with a blast of pepper spray until the can is empty then begin hands on. When I'm holding a gun, my goal is even more to clearly identify weapons and threatening movement to justify my shooting. That is imperative. I know from experience.

 

[Robocop]

Ken Good does indeed know his stuff and in many ways has changed my mind on a few things. I like Ken and it was ken who changed my mind on the Tiger Light....love that light for patrol.

Training scenarios are good however again even the best training is not the same as the real thing. In a rapidly evolving situation with real threats there are too many variables to control. In my personal experience a strobe light was distracting to me as well as other members of my team. I have also experienced fine motor skill failure and at the time was very glad I had simple effective tools that required little thinking on my part.

Yes it is a distraction there is no doubt of that and I can see how it may be usefull under perfect situations however under live fire there is no room for guesswork. It is easy to show in training how certain tactics can work however when it is my life involved for me simple is best. You may be able to actually make use of a strobe feature and if so that is great. I will never use a strobe feature for anything other than a signal or for traffic work and have explained my reasons for doing so.

So to answer the original question yes in theory a strobe can work under controlled situations. I have yet to see or hear of its actual usage applied in real life scenarios.

 

[RyanA]

It seems that it works best when closing on a person, perp etc. I've used it on a few drunks before. And I think it's decent for that use. It works better on some than others. Although to be honest the ones it works well on are usually unusually sensitive to bright light to begin with (Many would likely be affected the same by the same light on high, although if you're closing the distance I suppose the strobe might make the brain re-calculate your position). All in all it might be useful if you have to confront someone who is unarmed and belligerent. Even with that the only lights I like it on are aspherics because the flashes are obnoxiously bright at close distances.

 

[Justin Case]

Blah, blah, blah. Yeah, it's all soooo simple.

LMAO, it sucks when combat vets and experienced LEOs weigh in on matters of armed confrontation, doesn't it? Just screws everything up.
Here's an idea, talk to them like they're stupid, put words in their mouth, take things out of context, and give a twist their input to fit your own agenda even if it has nothing to do with anything they actually said or implied.

May all your life and death scenarios be laid out for your convenience, instead of you being on the defensive and facing infinite and constantly changing variables in situations beyond your control.

Thanks. I appreciate your well-reasoned and rigorous input. I will use CPF as my go-to source for all things tactical from now on.

 

[Justin Case]

Justin it is not a failure of the UI however more so a failure of human nature.....fine motor skills are gone under stress. I have trained with some of the best and I have seen the best lose motor skill while under stress.

Pressing a large button isn't a fine motor skill. Perhaps you are confusing it with conditional decision branching problems. Otherwise, I would suggest taking away firearms as well since one could suffer fine motor skill problems in pressing the trigger under stress.

 

[Justin Case]

Ha, I was thinking the same thing.

Look - Justin - if you want to use strobe, go ahead.

If you want to make a decision based on facts and data, that's another thing. Try re-reading some of the experienced-based posts above.

My .02, true weapon lights are single stage.

Multiple anecdotes are not data. However, you are more than welcome to base your tactics on CPF posts by anonymous people.

FYI, none of my handheld EDC lights and weaponlights are multimode. I do have a BH Gladius in my daily bag. So, your assumptions regarding my use of a dedicated strobe function are completely wrong.

 

[old4570]

Yeah !! :wave:

Armchair expert VS Law Enforcement Professional .

Hmmmmm .


Seriously , get a paint ball gun and a rubber knife , and some one motivated to hurt you a little , and put it to the test .

Then come back and tell us how useless strobe was "Eeeer" ineffective , I mean effective !

 

[Robocop]

I have seen seasoned officers killed by simply forgetting how to work their safety while taking fire....I have seen real life video of seasoned officers killed after forgetting to simply let go of their note pad held in their weapon hand while taking sudden un-expected fire. Yes pressing a button sounds simple however when you are 4 feet from the end of a 45 it is a fine motor skill.

I do enjoy hearing of others experiences and will gladly take any advantage I can while on the street. As I said if some can find a way to make it work then that is great however in my experiences I will stick with what has worked for me in the past.

Believe me when I say some officers experiences are different than others. Some officers have been under stress while some officers have actually been involved in a last minute fire fight....there is a huge difference between each officers experiences. I myself have found it difficult to work something as simple as my police radio under fire which I use every day. I was in a foot chase with an armed suspect and my radio got kicked to another channel.....all I had to do was switch to my home channel and while fumbling with one simple knob I found every channel but the one I wanted....it can happen to you or anyone and when it does you will be glad for simple effective equipment.

Good luck to all and by all means continue to train.

 

[Justin Case]

Yeah !! :wave:

Armchair expert VS Law Enforcement Professional .

Hmmmmm .


Seriously , get a paint ball gun and a rubber knife , and some one motivated to hurt you a little , and put it to the test .

Then come back and tell us how useless strobe was "Eeeer" ineffective , I mean effective !

I've done the 21 foot drill countless times. Have you? Also, I never said to use a strobe against a knifer. Why would I? A knife is lethal force. Yet another false premise argument. And please explain how does a test with a paintball gun and a rubber knife tell me something about the utility of a strobe flashlight? You are proposing to test the usefulness of a strobe flashlight, but your test doesn't include the use of the strobe flashlight at any time! Brilliant! :nana:

 

[Jaywalk3r]

why would one use an illumination tool anyway to stop the threat. Light him up with the light and shoot him with the firearm.

I'm not a LEO, so, in the event of encountering a potential attacker, I have no obligation to do anything besides save myself. While I've had sufficient military and martial arts training to be confident in my ability to pose an unexpected threat to an aggressor, my personal opinion is that I'm getting too old to be antagonizing potential attackers. In such a situation, my flashlight is there to stop the threat. It's a two step process:

1. Shine light in bad guy's eyes.
2. Run and get the hell out of Dodge.

Step one disrupts my adversary's night vision. Step two makes me a moving target. Should I fail to be able to carry out step two, then I'm prepared for that scenario. However, stopping a threat and saving my own *** does not imply a necessity to do harm to anyone else.

I refuse to be a victim. I also feel no need to be a hero.

 

[dano]

http://strategosforum.com/phpBB3/index.php

It's Ken Good's forum. Although not active, recently, there's a lot of good material on there relating to this topic.

I've had some success with a strobe on a few subjects. It works best indoors, under low light conditions. Not so well when ambient light is an issue (as with all LED based lights).

-dan

 

[nobody]

The strobe has its uses for both civilian and police however I do not believe that it was ever intended to be used in actual combat.....otherwise it would be much more common on the well known duty and military lights.

^this

 

[mpkav]

I think we have all determined that strobe as it pertains to police work and tactical situations it is pretty useless. I think it's interesting how this thread has moved a little more towards tactics in certain situations. I think any of us that have been in law enforcement, military, or even Joe Citizen has there own thinking on tactics and survival. Pertaining to police work it really is different all across the country. If you are in LA police work will be different than Indianapolis and that will be different from Winter Haven Florida. I think the common denominator here is we all use light and light is a major factor in our survival, no matter how you use it!!!

 

[Robocop]

I enjoy new ideas as well as anything that can educate me to have an advantage on the street. I enjoy a good debate and do hope this thread can one remain civil and also remain on topic.

I do not know many officers who would approach a threat with their only weapon being a light. Of course none I know would ever do so against an attacker advancing with a weapon. Having said that if you are searching a building where an intruder is known to be inside one should assume an armed conflict is about to begin....regardless if it does or not.

I have entered hundreds of buildings looking for a known suspect and many times have entered with trained swat teams....never once have I seen any officer enter with a strobe feature activated. Why even begin with a strobe if there is even a chance of encountering armed intruders?

The 21 foot drill is a good drill and I was amazed at how fast an instructor could cover that distance. Once again this drill was always under controlled elements with the attacker being an instructor. A better example would be a cracked out 20 year old in a dark alleyway swinging a screwdriver at your face. I was even more suprised at how much faster an actual criminal wanting to hurt me could cover the same 21 feet twice as fast as the instructor in all my classes.......I was also suprised to see how much harder it was to stop that drugged out criminal than it was to stop the instructor from all my classes.

I am a full believer in training as repitition and muscle memory is what will save your life. There is nothing better than training with the exception of real life experiences. As I said Ken Good is full of knowlege and I would not hesitate to enter a building and search with him as I have full confidence in his abilities.....however my actual real life experiences have shaped the way I do things in patrol and as such I may have different opinions towards certain tactics.