Tactical strobe..Does it work?????

[old4570]

I've done the 21 foot drill countless times. Have you? Also, I never said to use a strobe against a knifer. Why would I? A knife is lethal force. Yet another false premise argument. And please explain how does a test with a paintball gun and a rubber knife tell me something about the utility of a strobe flashlight? You are proposing to test the usefulness of a strobe flashlight, but your test doesn't include the use of the strobe flashlight at any time! Brilliant! :nana:

Well , It just depends on what your goal is !

How is strobe tactical ? People keep suggesting its useful for def fence ?

Please explain how ?

I know enough about assaults , etc .

Tactical entry , if you strobe a room , who is going to be disorientated ?
The perp shooting at you , or you ?

If your walking down the street , and you fear imminent attack , how will strobe help ?

If your already involved in a fight , how is adding strobe going to help ?

Im sorry , but again , please try it , then tell folks how great it is ...
Armchair quarterbacking ! VS Real life experience ...
I think the shoe is on your foot , not mine .

Seriously , if your having a party and you want to strobe it , go for it .
Serious life threatening situation , please feel free to strobe as you die !

Again , please feel free to put your life in the hands of a strobing flashlight .
But please dont give such advise over experienced law enforcement folk who have actually put there lives on the line ...

My suggestion is so you can get some real life experience/stress and see how well you can push the button to find strobe ...

I think you will find that it only takes an aggressor 1 to 2 seconds to close within striking distance ...

If you knew anything you would know most shootings take place around 7 to 15 feet , also once initiated , you will be attacked within less than 3 seconds , [ 1 to 2 seconds ]

And being under fire , real bullets kill , paint balls just hurt , but the stress will be there . So if your going to tell some one something , how bout actually knowing something about it .

Otherwise your just being a monkey on some ones back .

So like I said , Paint ball gun / rubber knife ...
Find a motivated attacker , and see how well you do !
Till then , your just full of it !

And if you dont understand this , then I dont want to dwell into your """""""
:sssh:


PS/ What 21 foot drill .. IPSC / PPC ?
I live in Australia , its illegal to defend yourself with a weapon here .
Technically its illegal to train with a fire arm to do harm .
Here it's legal to be a victim .

So , have you strobed at night whilst doing the 21foot drill ? Were you the target in the 21foot drill ? Have you ever been under fire ?

 

[GreyShark]

These kinds of threads get very silly and not just on CPF and not just about strobes. I could write a few paragraphs about the silliness and offend all kinds of people but it is more efficient just to say believe what you see personally proven in realtime in actual reality. Trust what actually worked for you when you needed it to. That's the best anybody can do.

In direct relation to the topic, I don't feel there is any particular advantage to a strobe in a fight over a simple powerful steady beam of light. The strobe is at best different. Outside of fighting the strobe has some very interesting uses and that's great because fighting is a lot less important to survival than most other things no matter what your profession is. Nobody successfully does more fighting than they do other things and the few who occasionally try it do not last long.

 

[Robocop]

I do hope that the poster has received enough information, both pros and cons, to make a decision of his own. We can all agree that strobe has its functions however disagree with where that function is.

I will allow this thread to run its coarse if it remains civil however I will close it if it begins to turn into drama. I do feel much of the information is important and with all the information given other readers can hopefully form their own opinion.

We are all passionate about this hobby of ours and with some it spills over into our real lives. My hobby of lights is something I actually practice every night so as such I am very passionate when it comes to my opinions of actual usage and safety. My opinions will differ from some however we can all express our points here without drama.

Ok so my official answer to the posters question is yes I believe strobe does work very well for traffic duty such as to signal approaching vehicles. I also believe it works well when combined with road flares or other signal devices on accident scenes to keep an officer who is out of their vehicle safe from other motorists. I do not feel it works well for high risk entries or other hands on situations where there is a risk of contacting a dangerous criminal.

 

[Search]

It's very simple guys.

One and only one light is going to serve as a "tactical" light. It is a simple light that can be a Maglite or a Z2.

There are 10 different ways to use a flashlight and a handgun together that a Side Button Maglite could be as effective as a rear push button Z2.

However, this light cannot have a strobe or "multiple modes". It can only have one. It's a light for clearing buildings, clearing yards, etc.

Using low-light techniques in REAL tactical situations, you would HAVE to use flash and move, flash and move, flash and move techniques.

Then another light used for the simple, daily grind.

This can be any light from a 6P to a PD30. It can strobe, SOS, switch to multiple-modes, ramp, etc.

It's for walking up to cars, searching cars (which would be good to have a drop in output), dealing with people, checking a buildings perimeter, etc, etc, etc.

Strobe has a use on this flashlight.

I'm not going to say if it's effective or not, because I've never encountered a situation to use mine. I can find an officer who lives by his though.

All I will say is whether or not a certain person feels as if strobing is necessary or effective, the main, duty light has a place for it with it not interfering with officer safety.

That is if that officer has a "tactical" light in case that situation comes.

As RoboCop said, anything complicated should never go into a tactical situation. It isn't even worth arguing and is set in stone.

Strobe and tactical never go together. General and strobe is different.

 

[winston]

that from the jaywalker. :crackup:

in all seriousness that's the most useful application of the strobe I have seen. From a distance (say 80 feet or more) a quick strobe gets attention of the drivers and it doesn't blind or disorient people in cars but enough to get them to look at you. Saved me a few times from drivers holding medicinal joints.

The full weight of the medicinal joint remark didn't hit me until I read your location.
Isn't the local motto::hitit:?

-Winston

 

[defloyd77]

So like I said , Paint ball gun / rubber knife ...
Find a motivated attacker , and see how well you do !
Till then , your just full of it !

I like this idea :grin2:

A while ago a friend and I tested the usefulness of just a momentary flash. It was my idea so I went first. His backyard was pretty dark, could see just somewhat, so he gives me the ok. I kick him in the leg:devil: then flash him and quickly and silently go behind him and kick him in the rear. He's motivated now lol, so he turns around and this time I held the light fully extended to my left, (his right) and he turns that way, again I kick him in the rear. As long as I mixed things up and was quiet, he couldn't manage to find me. The point I'm making is there was about 4 seconds where he couldn't see at all and that's 4 seconds to your advantage to figure out what the heck you're doing and do it.

He never got his turn......

Also I've noticed running circles around drunks, strobing my Jetbeam CLE V2 makes them puke....

 

[hyperloop]

When it comes to street dogs, most stop barking and turn away. Cats on the other hand, close their eyes and stand still. :grin2:

:D think my dog (female dalmatian) must be either visually impaired, drunk, weird or likes the strobe cos when i strobed her with my Jet III Pro ST on highest strobe frequency, she can just stare at me, blankly.

Not being an LEO, but being an enthusiastic angler who goes night fishing (though not as often as i wish due to the exigiencies of work), i found that a quick flash at max was quite effective to blind someone whose vision was night adapted, flashed one of my buddies with 225 lumens from a Jetbeam and he stopped dead for a few seconds till he recovered some vision. I'd say that a fast strobe, used intermittently might be more effective than continously strobing someone.

 

[Robocop]

defloyd77 at least you get points for trying however honestly there is no comparison between a hardened criminal and a friend in your back yard. Sure it will give you an idea as to some uses of the strobe however I can again assure you that the testing you tried out is nothing like a true life scenario.

Let me give you a scenario....I am a pretty big guy and anyone who has seen me will tell you I kind of look the part. I have been through several training classes for various street fighting and patrol situations and have been on the mat with some very tough instructors. Some of these instructors in my mind were awesome athletes and not anyone you would want to mess with on the street.......well

The single toughest man I have ever encountered was a 150 lb crack head leaving a dope house one night. He was fresh out of jail and itching for his dope and when I encountered him he simply was not going to allow me to mess up his night. This crack head, with no training, was tougher than any instructor I had ever seen and was able to go head to head with me for about 2 minutes.....which in a back alley is forever. In the end it was my baton, and radio, that got him however again way tougher than any fight I had trained with instructors on and an underestimate I never made again.

Now place this 150 lb crack head, with no dope for a week, in your backyard and strobe him and you probably would see a different result. Again at least you are experimenting and that is good however I want others to understand that there is a difference between practice, training, and real life situations. Where a strobe may disorient your friend it will do little towards a cracked out thug intent on taking your life.

 

[Robocop]

Also please forgive me if I seem to go on and on about this topic however it is something that hits close to home for me. I have been training new recruits for a while now and I see so many new officers showing up with some of the most crazy stuff in their head.

I usually ask where they saw this or where they were trained to do that and usually the answer is...."well I read it on this tactical forum" or maybe "my friend Joe and I practice this fighting style all the time"....all kinds of crazy stuff and usually none of it is good advice. I would hope that I teach my new recruits what works in reality, based on my experiences, so I may tend to babble at times about safety and police/military work.

Just so most others will know why I believe it so important.....ok back to the discussion.

 

[defloyd77]

Robocop, I am not at all disagreeing with you, in fact I do agree with you 100 percent, but if I only had my light on me and nothing else (I don't have a gun and rarely carry a knife), I'd flash the dude in the eyes and unless he's wearing sunglasses there'd be at least one second where he won't be able to see too well, I'm not talking about disorienting or anything and I'd mostly run like a mother****** and that one second would give me a pretty good head start as I'm a good runner, heck maybe I'd get lucky and he'd trip or even think I'm a cop.

Then there's also the fact that by shining a light at someone means they don't have the element of suprise (if they were going for that that is).

 

[Robocop]

I do believe you must use what you have and honestly most people would not encounter a crazed drug addict in some burnt out house anyway. I guess I could understand where if a light was all you had a strobe would be better than nothing.

Yes running works however I forgot to add the fastest person I ever saw was also a criminal (grin)......most drug addicts are slim and fast they just dont have any wind. If you can keep a good pace for about 100 yards you should be ok....:crackup:

 

[defloyd77]

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2008/05/wwii-strobe-t-1/

That's the WWII strobe Chrontius was speaking of. I don't think strobes should be totally disregarded tactically speaking. They were definately onto something with that tank strobe, but the tactics used with that wouldn't translate well into flashlight tactics. One thing that's well noted with bike flashers, the slow fashing ones are really hard to track and can sometimes confuse drivers as to where the heck the bike is.

 

[Lightraven]

To be fair, on-duty LEOs and civvies living their lives have very different situations and tactics for one may not be appropriate for the other. A strobing flashlight might be just the ticket for a bouncer, unarmed security or kid walking his dog at night. I don't know.

Because this thread was started by a LEO, other LEOs have given their on-duty perspective. When I think about a strobing light, I can't get past my pepper spray, night vision goggles, baton, Taser, guns (we have guys carrying automatic rifles and SMG's these days) and various coworkers who enjoy fighting. A strobing light seems pointless in that set of circumstances.

Then again, enough LEOs have said on this thread and others that strobing worked for them. While I'm not sure whether it was the strobe or just the bright light itself against a drunk with dilated pupils, I would never argue their experience.

 

[Justin Case]

I enjoy new ideas as well as anything that can educate me to have an advantage on the street. I enjoy a good debate and do hope this thread can one remain civil and also remain on topic.

I do not know many officers who would approach a threat with their only weapon being a light. Of course none I know would ever do so against an attacker advancing with a weapon. Having said that if you are searching a building where an intruder is known to be inside one should assume an armed conflict is about to begin....regardless if it does or not.

I have entered hundreds of buildings looking for a known suspect and many times have entered with trained swat teams....never once have I seen any officer enter with a strobe feature activated. Why even begin with a strobe if there is even a chance of encountering armed intruders?

The 21 foot drill is a good drill and I was amazed at how fast an instructor could cover that distance. Once again this drill was always under controlled elements with the attacker being an instructor. A better example would be a cracked out 20 year old in a dark alleyway swinging a screwdriver at your face. I was even more suprised at how much faster an actual criminal wanting to hurt me could cover the same 21 feet twice as fast as the instructor in all my classes.......I was also suprised to see how much harder it was to stop that drugged out criminal than it was to stop the instructor from all my classes.

I am a full believer in training as repitition and muscle memory is what will save your life. There is nothing better than training with the exception of real life experiences. As I said Ken Good is full of knowlege and I would not hesitate to enter a building and search with him as I have full confidence in his abilities.....however my actual real life experiences have shaped the way I do things in patrol and as such I may have different opinions towards certain tactics.

Right, I never promoted the exclusive use of a light's strobe function. However, you don't need a dedicated strobe function on your light to be able to use strobing. I can do it with a single mode light by either bezel wobble or tailcap cycling. It does make single searcher location more difficult for the opponent, especially combined with things like ceiling bounce and off-angle aiming.

The general rule of thumb is that the attacker is going to do exactly what he was doing immediately before you started to shoot at him. Thus, if he is trying to stab you with a screwdriver and you shoot him between 0-21 feet, he is still going to try to stab you afterward. So if even firearms have a hard time stopping a determined attacker, why would I advocate using just a light. Answer -- I don't. Some other posters who are against strobes continue to misrepresent my position on this.

 

[Justin Case]

Well , It just depends on what your goal is !

How is strobe tactical ? People keep suggesting its useful for def fence ?

I didn't.

Please explain how ?

See above.

I know enough about assaults , etc .

Tactical entry , if you strobe a room , who is going to be disorientated ?
The perp shooting at you , or you ?

Never said that a strobe would stop people from shooting or protect you from incoming. That is a complete misrepresentation and simply argumentative.

If your walking down the street , and you fear imminent attack , how will strobe help ?

Same "help" as using any bright light.

If your already involved in a fight , how is adding strobe going to help ?

Never said it would. If you are already engaged in a fight, then you need to fight back, not shine photons, strobe or no strobe.

Im sorry , but again , please try it , then tell folks how great it is ...
Armchair quarterbacking ! VS Real life experience ...
I think the shoe is on your foot , not mine .

Never said "how great it is". You are again engaging in misrepresentation for your own personal agenda.

Seriously , if your having a party and you want to strobe it , go for it .
Serious life threatening situation , please feel free to strobe as you die !

Another misrepresentation. I never suggested to use just a strobe in any lethal force situation.

Again , please feel free to put your life in the hands of a strobing flashlight .
But please dont give such advise over experienced law enforcement folk who have actually put there lives on the line ...

My suggestion is so you can get some real life experience/stress and see how well you can push the button to find strobe ...

I think you will find that it only takes an aggressor 1 to 2 seconds to close within striking distance ...

If you knew anything you would know most shootings take place around 7 to 15 feet , also once initiated , you will be attacked within less than 3 seconds , [ 1 to 2 seconds ]

And being under fire , real bullets kill , paint balls just hurt , but the stress will be there . So if your going to tell some one something , how bout actually knowing something about it .

Otherwise your just being a monkey on some ones back .

I know how long it takes for someone to close the gap. 21 foot rule. Remember? And of course it's an even shorter time at closer range. I've done the force-on-force with Sims, I've done the live fire, I've done the sparring, I've done the knife work. Have you? Or are you just pontificating?

Stop being a jerk and assuming, with zero evidence, that somehow I don't know the stats on criminal attacks. I've only been studying the topic for the last 15 years. As for your stats of 7-15 feet, who had the tape measure out during the attack? Once the attack initiates, you will be attacked within 3 sec? What does that even mean and who had the stopwatch running during these events?

Yeah, if you are targeted, obviously the BG wants something from you -- typically your wallet/money. So he has to come close to get it. Duh. So don't wait for the BG to close the gap. Learn to manage unknown contacts. Of course, you can't always keep people far away, but letting people get into your reactionary gap (of course, you know what that is being the big expert you are) if it can be otherwise prevented is a mistake. But I have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to your 3 sec figure of merit. Are you talking about closing the 7-15 foot gap that you cite? Clearly, you have no clue about the 21 foot rule. We've run hundreds, if not thousands of tests, with men, women, old, young, fit, injured. I had a guy in a cast close the 21 foot gap in 2 sec. And that is an optimistic case. Actually, you don't have to close the full 21 foot gap to be a threat with a contact distance weapon. Plus, the defender has prior knowledge of what is going to happen, so his reaction time is optimized. Of course, we all know this and understand that the so-called 21 foot rule is a preferred minimum distance.

Also, if some is going to accost you, they are going to try to get inside of your reactionary gap first, not initiate from 21 feet, and the attack is going to be essentially instantaneous. If I had up to 3 sec to respond, that would be a best case. Worst case, the BG cracks your head open completely by surprise.

Under fire.... Again with the misrepresentation. Your accusations cut two ways. If you are going to tell someone something, how about knowing something about the subject. What is your resume? Taken any combatives training? Live fire weapons training? Knife training? Weapon retention and disarming training? Force on force training?

So like I said , Paint ball gun / rubber knife ...
Find a motivated attacker , and see how well you do !
Till then , your just full of it !

See above. I've done it. What is your experience?

I also note that you never directly address how a paintball gun and rubber knife test proves that using flashlight strobing is ineffective.

The point, which you continually miss, is that a knifer coming at you is a deadly force situation and using a flashlight period, strobe or no strobe, is plain silly. So your "test" is completely irrelevant.

And if you dont understand this , then I dont want to dwell into your """""""
:sssh:


PS/ What 21 foot drill .. IPSC / PPC ?
I live in Australia , its illegal to defend yourself with a weapon here .
Technically its illegal to train with a fire arm to do harm .
Here it's legal to be a victim .

So , have you strobed at night whilst doing the 21foot drill ? Were you the target in the 21foot drill ? Have you ever been under fire ?

And your "real life" experience is...? Clearly you don't even know what the 21 foot drill is. It has nothing to do with IPSC or PPC. Have you ever shot any IPSC or PPC? Have I ever been under fire -- I'm not the type to brag one way or another. But you seem to be the type who doesn't understand that sort of thing. The point is that having been under fire is a poor criterion by itself for choosing your source for tactics. Women and children at the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC were just under fire. I wouldn't consult them on useful self-defense tactics.

Have you been under fire? If that's your selection criterion, then prove to me that your position is supported by first-hand experience, not just parrotting others.

 

[Justin Case]

I have seen seasoned officers killed by simply forgetting how to work their safety while taking fire....I have seen real life video of seasoned officers killed after forgetting to simply let go of their note pad held in their weapon hand while taking sudden un-expected fire. Yes pressing a button sounds simple however when you are 4 feet from the end of a 45 it is a fine motor skill.

You will not rise to the occasion, but default to your level of training. I submit that the level of training was not sufficiently high. Frankly, the shooting and firearms manipulation skills of many of today's officers is abysmal. It's sad to hear that decades after Newhall, officers are still more highly trained in administrative skills like holding a notepad than operating their firearm.

The key here is that the officers holding the notepads were taken by surprise. Getting surprised and having to go from Yellow to Orange or Black in an instant is not a recipe for success. But that has nothing to do with a fine motor skill in this case. It has everything to do with decision-making ability under extreme stress. If your skills aren't reflexive, then you are going to fall further behind in the OODA loop while trying to figure out what to do, and probably never be able to mount any sort of effective defense, strobe or no strobe, gun or no gun. And even if your skills are reflexive, you are still starting behind the curve.

These examples, IMO, are not an indictment of having a strobe on the flashlight. Why would I even want to use a strobe function on my light in any of these cases?

Here's the deal. When officers can't even operate their firearm, I don't hear people complaining that guns are useless. But when they can't operate their flashlight, suddenly it's clear proof that dedicated strobe functions are useless? Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. But the arguments put forth so far don't really cut it IMO. Most of the arguments against strobes seem to be of the "hammer and nail" variety, where the strobe is no good against a lethal threat, against some irrational crackhead, etc. Well surprise, it's a flashlight. That's all. It obviously has limited capability for behavior change. Why would I expect a photon emitter to stop bullets, help me leap tall buildings in a single bound, make Einsteins out of crackheads, etc?

Everything in the so-called force continuum can and has failed -- verbal commands, OC, soft hands, hard hands, baton, TASER, firearm. Failure doesn't necessary mean useless.

 

[Jaywalk3r]

Yes running works however I forgot to add the fastest person I ever saw was also a criminal (grin)......most drug addicts are slim and fast they just dont have any wind. If you can keep a good pace for about 100 yards you should be ok....:crackup:

With all respect, there is a significant difference between a criminal (there's nothing special about drug addicts compared to non-addicts, but that's a discussion for a different thread) behavior when that criminal encounters a potential victim and when that criminal criminal encounters a police officer.

Excepting cases in which the potential victim is specifically targeted, all a potential victim needs to do to escape attack is convince the attacker that someone else would make an easier/better victim. That's not hard to do. Demonstrating situational awareness and running will work in most cases.

OTOH, when encountering police, criminals can feel desperate. From the criminal's perspective, such an encounter makes the criminal the potential victim and the officer the source of threat. As such, the criminal will be much more willing to do whatever it takes to avoid capture. Like most potential victims, they will have plenty of adrenalin flowing and may not feel pain immediately. They will go into fight or flight mode, making them either a capable fighter or a capable runner.

 

[Solscud007]

Yeah !! :wave:

Armchair expert VS Law Enforcement Professional .

Hmmmmm .


Seriously , get a paint ball gun and a rubber knife , and some one motivated to hurt you a little , and put it to the test .

Then come back and tell us how useless strobe was "Eeeer" ineffective , I mean effective ! :grin2:
:paypal:

Im too lazy to read most of the replies here. But I hope this helps a bit. I used to play Airsoft rather often. Here is a POV video I made. Im using a P90, SF weaponlight, and my Blackhawk Gladius for the strobe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaT4IbPE6go

At 0:50 into the video I unleash the P90 on a group then hit a National guardsmen with the gladius.

At 1:57 into the video I used the gladius again and every one pretty much has no idea what is going on other than cringing with pain from my weapon and the strobing effect. It does help just a bit to gain a slight advantage over my opponents. If the field was darker, it would be even more effective.

Now im not saying this will work in every situation. Airsoft is a simulation and people are not as aggressive however some are more reckless since there is no real element of mortal danger so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[RyanA]

To be fair, on-duty LEOs and civvies living their lives have very different situations and tactics for one may not be appropriate for the other. A strobing flashlight might be just the ticket for a bouncer, unarmed security or kid walking his dog at night. I don't know.

Because this thread was started by a LEO, other LEOs have given their on-duty perspective. When I think about a strobing light, I can't get past my pepper spray, night vision goggles, baton, Taser, guns (we have guys carrying automatic rifles and SMG's these days) and various coworkers who enjoy fighting. A strobing light seems pointless in that set of circumstances.

Then again, enough LEOs have said on this thread and others that strobing worked for them. While I'm not sure whether it was the strobe or just the bright light itself against a drunk with dilated pupils, I would never argue their experience.

I have to say I agree with this statement most. Different situations call for different tools. I think strobe has worked in my favor mainly because I have the luxury of sobriety I often know there's going to be a problem before it starts. I get to be proactive and pick my battles where and when I know I will win them, that and having 3-6 other people for immediate backup usually means I'm the one on the offense and that it's typically a low risk situation. I've mostly used it to get behind people and back them out the door (there have been a few instances where I haven't been able to get behind them from the get-go, it seems cowardly, I know, but it's way easier than being an amateur pugilist.) That's really the only way I'd advocate using strobe from my experience. Even then I've only had limited use for it. I don't have any tactical experience though, I can't say if it has any use there. If someone pulls out a gun I'm out the door and down the street with the rest.

 

[Robocop]

You will not rise to the occasion, but default to your level of training. I submit that the level of training was not sufficiently high. Frankly, the shooting and firearms manipulation skills of many of today's officers is abysmal. It's sad to hear that decades after Newhall, officers are still more highly trained in administrative skills like holding a notepad than operating their firearm.

The key here is that the officers holding the notepads were taken by surprise. Getting surprised and having to go from Yellow to Orange or Black in an instant is not a recipe for success. But that has nothing to do with a fine motor skill in this case. It has everything to do with decision-making ability under extreme stress. If your skills aren't reflexive, then you are going to fall further behind in the OODA loop while trying to figure out what to do, and probably never be able to mount any sort of effective defense, strobe or no strobe, gun or no gun. And even if your skills are reflexive, you are still starting behind the curve.

These examples, IMO, are not an indictment of having a strobe on the flashlight. Why would I even want to use a strobe function on my light in any of these cases?

Here's the deal. When officers can't even operate their firearm, I don't hear people complaining that guns are useless. But when they can't operate their flashlight, suddenly it's clear proof that dedicated strobe functions are useless? Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. But the arguments put forth so far don't really cut it IMO. Most of the arguments against strobes seem to be of the "hammer and nail" variety, where the strobe is no good against a lethal threat, against some irrational crackhead, etc. Well surprise, it's a flashlight. That's all. It obviously has limited capability for behavior change. Why would I expect a photon emitter to stop bullets, help me leap tall buildings in a single bound, make Einsteins out of crackheads, etc?

Everything in the so-called force continuum can and has failed -- verbal commands, OC, soft hands, hard hands, baton, TASER, firearm. Failure doesn't necessary mean useless.

Justin I know some of these officers involved and believe me when I say their level of training was impressive with many years of experience as well. You say getting suprised has nothing to do with fine motor skill and in fact it has everything to do with it......fact is most all people lose fine motor skill under real stress. When I say real stress I mean life and death situations and believe me I have been in plenty. Each situation I have been involved in usually started with a suprise also.

Training is great and it works to an extent however one can train for 20 years and never have a critical incident. When something does happen the training can keep them alive however if they have over complicated equipment it makes it harder to stay alive due to motor skill loss. This is a simple proven fact and until you have experienced it you will not fully understand how it can and does happen to even highly trained people.

I do not feel strobe is useless for patrol as again I have used a strobe light for routine tasks on duty. I do believe it has no place in a dangerous entry or even a situation where a conflict is possible. So I do believe it works for certain things however my life is much too important for me to ever include it against an attacker unless I simply have no other weapons.

I have been inside a room during a practice drill where the instructors had placed strobing lights throughout the structure. Yes it was weird and it made the search interesting however it did nothing to hinder our objective.

I guess to sum it up in a simple way I would say....For an officer to be using a strobe light on any type event that may turn deadly is a mistake I believe. I say so because the strobe would be disorienting to the attacker however would also do the same for the officers. This would simply add another distraction to the already decreased motor skills should the officer be suprised by gunfire or other attack.

We have to worry about crossfire...civilians...and a whole host of other stuff however a determined and dangerous criminal cares nothing for any other variables....Strobe may or may not work great in some situations however personally I want a clear field of view without any distractions to myself or others around me. Just my take on it and again I appreciate this thread remaining civil....I do hope the poster has actually got something usefull from it.