The roadway maintenance thread

[bykfixer]

I didn't get what a picture of Mayor Pete had to do with my post, but a political statement? I'm kinda thinkin' somebody has an axe to grind from some other point in time. I hate to think a thread about roadway maintenance gets closed because two members can't get along.
I'll leave it there.

I would ask that folks restrain from political statements unless it's a thread about politics.

 

[Poppy]

I didn't get what a picture of Mayor Pete had to do with my post, but a political statement? I'm kinda thinkin' somebody has an axe to grind from some other point in time. I hate to think a thread about roadway maintenance gets closed because two members can't get along.
I'll leave it there.

I would ask that folks restrain from political statements unless it's a thread about politics.

Agreed, and threads about politics belong in the underground.

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

@bykfixer How about an update? Anything new?

 

[PhotonWrangler]

I've found the road maintenance info to be educational.

 

[bykfixer]

Well, the project I'm on now has reached the point where all of the giant Tonka toys are gone. Time for the project records closeout. The sexy part is done.


The Feds are paying 50% of the funds so there are mountains of forms required. C-22's, C-25's, C-57's, C-63's, 64's, 67's, 111's, 167's, OJT forms, TL's, TE's, and the list goes on and on.

For decades I moved around with the Tonka toys. Not any more. Ugh! Soon there'll be a parade of arm chair quarterbacks and after-the-fact-engineers walking over the project so they'll tell us what we should have done 6 months ago. Yay!

When the dust is settled and the back up alarms are silent there are a few staring at a computer screen all day, every day compiling documents to turn over to the paying customer. Then it's time for the next one. The team will say farewell to each other. Some go to other places, some meet at the next project. Some hope to never see each other again. But overall, if things went well "they'll" want to know who the engineer was. If not "they'll" want to know who the inspector was.

 

[idleprocess]

If not "they'll" want to know who the inspector was.

Something along the lines of...
Why didn't the inspector stop {the engineer's bad design|the crew from knackering the job}?

 

[bykfixer]

Something along the lines of...
Why didn't the inspector stop {the engineer's bad design|the crew from knackering the job}?

Oh that in itself is a full time job at times. But often times a given contractor or a crew of the contractor can be less than craftsmen in their trade leading to a less than ideal product.

Rule of thumb is 'if it looks good and rides good it is good' according to some. Our rule of thumb adds "and holds up well'. Trouble is an ugly road that doesn't ride smooth is what most will remember. And "they" seem to think you can inspect quality into a project. Now if it is built by the specs the quality is there.

Take the pavement for example: it might not ride as smooth as a baby's bottom but materials were checked for compliance and procedures followed as it was being placed. Our specs are not as strict as an airport so ride quality has a lot of loopholes in the requirements where the airport runway had better not have small peaks and valleys since giant aircraft have to go from 400+mph to 0 in a hurry. Those small peaks and valleys can cause braking efficiency issues.

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

As a member of the family of a former truck driver, I can tell you with absolute surety, that ride quality is greatly appreciated by truckers. Long hours driving heavy and sometimes difficult to handle loads can be made a lot nicer, or a lot worse, by the road quality.

 

[idleprocess]

And "they" seem to think you can inspect quality into a project. Now if it is built by the specs the quality is there.

As I understand the term, inspection is generally an after the fact process that catches defects. If the term implies active supervision then it could improve quality by preventing defects, but I suspect that delivery to specification is on the contractor.

 

[bykfixer]

Yes the burden is on the contractor who signs a contract stating they'll use means and methods to build things that meets the rules laid out in clear, concise language in the contract.

Part of the paper work is to ensure only approved materials are used. Materials that are certified to meet requirements using quality control methods and sometimes samples are taken to a lab as quality assurance methods.
When they arrive they are inspected. When installed inspections take place. At times post installtion inspections take place as well.

Concrete pipe for example: the concrete is approved but checked at times at regular intervals. Same with the steel reinforcement bars. Once the pipe is cured it is inspected for correct shape, size and blemish free.
When it arrives to a project it is checked to be from an approved source and has the required QC stamp. It's also checked for defects.
Time to install the pipe, and the bottom of the trench (called foundation) is checked for stability. A base stone is applied. It is checked for proper moisture and compaction. The pipe is placed and checked to ensure it's on grade. As joints are connected those are checked for proper connection. Then the pipe trench is filled, called backfilled. Again the soil or gravel used is an approved product. Compaction is checked along with lift thickness and proper density and moisture. Proper moisture aids in lubricating materials and allows optimal compression.

After 30 days a video inspection takes place. Sometimes the video reveals issues that were not "caught" while manufactured or installed but usually not. It usually proves the system was built correctly. So overall quality was inspected into the product but does not guarentee 100% was correctly built.

The project I'm on now had over 2 miles of concrete pipe inspected as manufactured and constructed but video inspections revealed several dozens issue needing correction. Two runs had to be dug up and replaced.

 

[idleprocess]

A more involved process than my experiences in manufacturing commercial products and validating their proper installation.

An acquaintance at the makerspace once expressed intense emotions about the dangers of the unknown provenance of some scrap aluminum. He then chuckled and went on to talk about his history in aviation production and the intense chain of custody and record keeping requirements. Everything possibly relevant about critical components are tracked cradle-to-grave: benign handling individual pieces of raw material, subsequent divisions, operations against child pieces, final designation as a finished part, and its eventual installation. Any rework of significant parts required actual engineering to be approved. Told the story of P&W's ability to track down a failed turbine blade and identify all the individual blade components made from adjacent slices of material from the same ingot for inspection, both satisfying the FAA and demonstrating a minimum ancestral distance away from both the actual failure and revealed defects to limit inspections / emergency replacement.

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

A more involved process than my experiences in manufacturing commercial products and validating their proper installation.

An acquaintance at the makerspace once expressed intense emotions about the dangers of the unknown provenance of some scrap aluminum. He then chuckled and went on to talk about his history in aviation production and the intense chain of custody and record keeping requirements. Everything possibly relevant about critical components are tracked cradle-to-grave: benign handling individual pieces of raw material, subsequent divisions, operations against child pieces, final designation as a finished part, and its eventual installation. Any rework of significant parts required actual engineering to be approved. Told the story of P&W's ability to track down a failed turbine blade and identify all the individual blade components made from adjacent slices of material from the same ingot for inspection, both satisfying the FAA and demonstrating a minimum ancestral distance away from both the actual failure and revealed defects to limit inspections / emergency replacement.

All that would be/must be difficult enough for domestic manufacturing--imagine trying to maintain that integrity with foreign sourced parts.

 

[idleprocess]

All that would be/must be difficult enough for domestic manufacturing--imagine trying to maintain that integrity with foreign sourced parts.

Airbus, Boeing, Embraer, Bombardier seem to manage it matter of course using a multitude of suppliers domestic and foreign.

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

Airbus, Boeing, Embraer, Bombardier seem to manage it matter of course using a multitude of suppliers domestic and foreign.

I'll bet it gives someone a headache, though.

 

[idleprocess]

I'll bet it gives someone a headache, though.

An unavoidable cost of complexity, but the benefits can make it worthwhile.

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

An unavoidable cost of complexity, but the benefits can make it worthwhile.

A friend of mine took training at Salina, at the time I think the school name was Kansas Technical Institute, now Kansas State University runs it, to get his umm, I think it was called something like Power and Airframe tech certification. You aerospace people probably know what I am talking about. Anyway, he was telling me about how much more any part dealing with an aircraft costs compared to normal hardware. Extremely expensive. Now I know why.

 

[idleprocess]

Anyway, he was telling me about how much more any part dealing with an aircraft costs compared to normal hardware. Extremely expensive. Now I know why.

Probably also gained some appreciation for why Popular Mechanics predicting flying cars for everyman ain't gonna happen.

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

Yes the burden is on the contractor who signs a contract stating they'll use means and methods to build things that meets the rules laid out in clear, concise language in the contract.

Part of the paper work is to ensure only approved materials are used. Materials that are certified to meet requirements using quality control methods and sometimes samples are taken to a lab as quality assurance methods.
When they arrive they are inspected. When installed inspections take place. At times post installtion inspections take place as well.

Concrete pipe for example: the concrete is approved but checked at times at regular intervals. Same with the steel reinforcement bars. Once the pipe is cured it is inspected for correct shape, size and blemish free.
When it arrives to a project it is checked to be from an approved source and has the required QC stamp. It's also checked for defects.
Time to install the pipe, and the bottom of the trench (called foundation) is checked for stability. A base stone is applied. It is checked for proper moisture and compaction. The pipe is placed and checked to ensure it's on grade. As joints are connected those are checked for proper connection. Then the pipe trench is filled, called backfilled. Again the soil or gravel used is an approved product. Compaction is checked along with lift thickness and proper density and moisture. Proper moisture aids in lubricating materials and allows optimal compression.

After 30 days a video inspection takes place. Sometimes the video reveals issues that were not "caught" while manufactured or installed but usually not. It usually proves the system was built correctly. So overall quality was inspected into the product but does not guarentee 100% was correctly built.

The project I'm on now had over 2 miles of concrete pipe inspected as manufactured and constructed but video inspections revealed several dozens issue needing correction. Two runs had to be dug up and replaced.

@bykfixer Thanks for explaining all that. That helps explain to me why it takes road crews so long to finish a job. I had no idea of all the QC and spec'ing of all the materials, like the rock in the bottom of a trench, and the compaction, and all that other stuff. In my little town, we have a lot of water pipe breaks, and the Public Works department has to tear up a part of a street or intersection to fix it, and it seems to take forever to get the street back to normal. Now I have more appreciation for all the procedure that goes into it.

 

[bykfixer]

Emergency repairs? That's a different matter. I'll explain later when I have more time. You'll likely be surprised how complicated "shutting down water mains" for emergency repairs can be sometimes.

 

[bykfixer]

So here goes:
One day this fellow cracked a waterline. Small crack, small leak. It was a brittle pipe called transite. A product used in the 70's made of asbestos cement. Little by little the small leak ate away at the cementatious material. The leak got a little bigger. Ok, so that began at like 8am. By noon the leak that would fill a 5 gallon bucket with water in an hour had gone to 5 gallons per minute.

I told a story somewhere recently about a guy who fell off a ladder and broke his leg and 3 ribs. I was filling in for that guy. I'm asking the contractor when was he going to fix the leak. He said parts were on the way. A few hours later no parts yet. The leak was at the connection point of a 3/4" service line hooked to a 16" main. A high pressure main.

At 4:00 the connection had popped out of the main and a worker was tasked with sticking a broom handle in the hole. It was January with a high of like 30 degrees farenheit. The sun was setting. The broom handle largely worked but it leaked some. Still no parts. The spray from around the broom stick handle was spraying this young guy in the face. The water began to freeze on the lad.

At 5:00 he couldn't take it anymore. He abandoned his post. Up to this point I had not mentioned the leak was 5 feet from traffic. When the lad let go of the plug suddenly water was spraying 50' high next to traffic whizzing past. Muddy water loaded with gravel was pelting SUV's and soccer mom cars. It was pretty ugly.

A County guy was there begging his bosses to shut off the water. At 7:00 water was still spraying traffic. A guy crawled up with an excavator and placed the bucket over the spray, which halted the geyser effect but the water was now power washing the road way base stone.

A County boss came out there and explained it was a buffer line. In other words at one end a mile away line pressure was 150 psi. The area we were in was a pressure reducer (buffer) and helped boost the pressure a mile away at the other end. To suddenly shut off the main where we were would boost the high pressure to over 200psi he said. Lots of water tanks and waterlines would burst. No bueno. So they had to go around a 5 mile perimeter closing certain valves to send the buffer around where we were and it took several hours to do that. First they had to design what to do, then go do it.

They had started the design at 3:00 and by 4:30 were in motion shutting off valves. Dozens of valves that take about 10 minutes per valve. Four people were doing it. Little by little the geyser grew smaller. At 11:00 no water was coming out of the leak..... and get this.... still no parts!!!! So the County dispatched a crew who had their act together. While every body's flashlights and cell phones had quit these guys had 3D Maglites with plenty of spare batteries. I was never so glad to see a Maglite. (Being a flashaholic I had spares but they were MINE AND I aint sharing.)

At midnight the pipe had been repaired and the water was slowly turned back on. But the undermined roadway had to be repaired. I had arrived at work at 7:00am the one day and got back home at 5:00am the next day. At 10:00am I was on the phone with bosses explaining what had happened. At 12:00pm I was tasked typed up a 2 page report with descriptions of events each hour of the event. I got back home at 6:00pm that day.

The bosses were happy, and the County had devised a "what if" scenario for numerous areas where they have buffer lines. From what I understand they've used the idea numerous times since and saved several hours each time.