To beat a Cree?

[CanDo]

Hey guys,

I was wondering what can be done with incan bulbs to create a hand-held light for <$120 that would outperform (in terms of throw and runtime) something like Dereelight's DBS. Incredible throw was incan's big advantage over LED, but for a similar product, Cree's are now able to put out as much light, burn longer, use cheaper batteries, and never die. Should I still bother to make a ROP??

Looking forward to your thoughts,
CanDo

 

[Gunner12]

Yes you should make a ROP, so you can have a light that will leave burn marks in paper.

 

[cnjl3]

That is a big "yes" if only so you can compare how washed out the surrounding scenery looks with your LED. Your ROP will show you natures true colors in all its glorious splendor.

Should I still bother to make a ROP??

 

[Jay T]

The ROP will win in the throw contest, however it will not win the runtime. I just put the ROP low bulb in my ROP LE and took it outside along with my Taiblo A8 Q5 (about the same class as the deeree thing) the ROP lit things up brighter and clearer than the Taiblo, and that was with the low output bulb. The High would have been even more impressive.

As far as runtime the ROP is drawing 1.4 amps with the low and 4+ with the high while the Taiblo uses 1.1 so the LED would win the runtime contest. Now that I think about it the ROP would have a chance if you replaced the 18650s with the AW's C cells.

 

[LuxLuthor]

Cree's are now able to put out as much light, burn longer, use cheaper batteries, and never die.

The only possibly accurate part of that is longer life and run time. However, LED's cannot come remotely close to affordable incans in terms of lumens, throw, color. Some try to approach it with a typical flood output multi-emitter setup...but the run time drops, and heat rises.

 

[Daekar]

Hey guys,

I was wondering what can be done with incan bulbs to create a hand-held light for <$120 that would outperform (in terms of throw and runtime) something like Dereelight's DBS. Incredible throw was incan's big advantage over LED, but for a similar product, Cree's are now able to put out as much light, burn longer, use cheaper batteries, and never die. Should I still bother to make a ROP??

Looking forward to your thoughts,
CanDo

You have a few false premises:
1) Put out as much light. Cree max output for single emitter, currently around 300 BL at most. ROP Hi, a hotwire fairly low on the totem pole, hovers around 1000-1100 BL.
2) Use cheaper batteries. This could be up for debate, depending on the configuration. Certainly most Cree lights use fewer batteries, but high-current NiMH have come down in price and all 12 of my Titanium 1800s cost less than two Wolf-Eyes 18650s.
3) Never die. Not quite false, but not quite true either. If the electronics konk out in your Cree light, you're up a creek without a paddle. In your average ROP, there are no electronics to break. If the bulb breaks, you stick in another one. Yes, the bulb life is relatively short, but then again there is no phosphor fade over time like on an LED. Still, unless the light is poorly engineered, chances are the emitter itself won't fail over the life of the light.

Incredible throw is still a strong suit of incans but leds have caught up in some ways - they can be very efficiently focused now. The problem is, the dollar/lumen ratio for incans is much lower than for LEDs, so it's relatively easy to produce enough light to completely undo any advances gained by LEDs so far.

Color rendering. I didn't used to believe the difference. I built my first ROP - and became a believer. For those moments that demand raw power, incans are the way to go.

 

[PhantomPhoton]

ROPs are still great. My ROP still beats out all of the LED lights I have, though I don't have any huge 7 cree monsters... yet. The DBS is a sweet little thrower but thats about it.

 

[LuxLuthor]

We were due for another LED > Incan thread. I forgot the cycle.

 

[KevinL]

Cool, didn't know the ROP had so much support (yes, it was my creation, I sometimes keep an eye on it)

I didn't know it could leave burn marks in paper though! I suppose if you left it facing down long enough.. a Surefire P91 once partially melted a hard plastic mousepad I had.

It is a gateway, to show you the power of the incandescent at a low entry level cost. Once you get hooked you can then move on to the expensive 100W incans and their specialized power packs.

Incans have their place, just as LEDs tend to dominate the lower-powered end of the spectrum due to their efficiency and ideal placement for low-power lighting needs. However, at the high end, when you're talking about many hundreds of bulb lumens, incandescents still have their place.

As for efficiency, LEDs produce more lumens per watt than incandescents, this is a known issue. As a car enthusiast once told me "There's no such thing as economy AND serious power.. if you want serious power it's [the car] going to do some serious drinking!"

 

[LuxLuthor]

As for efficiency, LEDs produce more lumens per watt than incandescents, this is a known issue.

That may be true, but all I care about is having a light let me see what I want to see....and I don't give a rat's rump about lumen per watt efficiency unless I am staring at an Excel spreadsheet of theoretical light factors. If I think I may exceed the battery run time, I'll take along an extra set of rechargeable NiMH or Li-Ions.

I can count on one hand the number of times I have been happy using an LED outside....but inside I use an LED 90% of the time.

 

[2xTrinity]

As far as ROPs go, there are a couple options these days. I have one which uses 2x AW C cells, in a 2C maglite with a thin ring acting as a spacer (the cells are slightly longer due to the protection circuits.

With the ROP-Hi I get about 40 minutes of runtime before the battery dies out. I get about 1.5Hrs on the low bulb (stored in the tailcap). With a cammed MOP reflector allowing me to change focus, it's one of my most versatile lights.

 

[MikeSalt]

LuxLuthor's custom battery packs look to be a fantastic solution for the ROP. Best is, they are an all-in-one pack, so you can carry spares easily. They are made from the legendary Elite 1700s and they are next on my purchase list. I STRONGLY recommend getting one, it is less expensive than a carrier + 6AA NiMH batteries.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=176185

 

[yellow]

totally wrong on everything
While I like my cree lights most, You can only compare such one with an incan of similar size (and this comparison the led wins)

an ROP is a totally different league.

What You do is comparing a Crossfire with a Porsche.

 

[Daekar]

totally wrong on everything
While I like my cree lights most, You can only compare such one with an incan of similar size (and this comparison the led wins)

an ROP is a totally different league.

What You do is comparing a Crossfire with a Porsche.

Troll much? Read the OP please - they say "hand-held" and specifically reference building a ROP. Both the DBS and a 2D ROP are handheld. It's difficult to compare them because the Crees are still completely outclassed in terms of output but within the domain of their output they trounce incans with runtime (compared to P60/P61 for example). The consensus is if you need lots of power and throw, get an incan or HID and some extra batteries - LEDs aren't up to the task yet. If you need less light with longer runtime use a Cree.

 

[CanDo]

Very glad to hear my fears are wrong. The question now becomes: which ROP? I was originally thinking of a 4 or 6 cell host, but the smaller ones seem very cool. LuxLuthor's pack looks pretty cool, but I'll take the cheaper option if it exists.

2xTrinity, Sounds like a pretty sweet rig. What exactly is an AW cell? Google turned up nothing. Is that as bright (or close to it) as some of the bigger ROPs?

I was thinking of just a 2D with 6NiMH AA cells, but I imagine there are some better options (2xTrinity's light?). I'm judging mainly in terms of throw/brightness, since in situations where I can pack this light in the first place, I'll be able to have spare batteries.

Thanks,
CanDo

Edit:
What is the plot of runtime like with one of these? Does brightness stay constant for at least a little while or does it just go down linear-like? If the battery doesn't provide some sort of regulation, do you know where I could buy/make one?

 

[LuxLuthor]

The ONLY person to date who has made a regulated driver to keep output constant through the battery cycle has been AWR with his adjustable Vbulb, soft starting hot driver.

AW who sells the Li-Ion batteries has no connection to AWR, and has made a soft starting, multi-level output Mag C & D driver, and has said he is working on a fixed voltage output regulated D driver that has been discussed here, with feedback from AW.

 

[Bort]

Great thread! I can't wait to finish my own ROP! Thanks.:twothumbs

 

[Beer]

Very glad to hear my fears are wrong. The question now becomes: which ROP? I was originally thinking of a 4 or 6 cell host, but the smaller ones seem very cool. LuxLuthor's pack looks pretty cool, but I'll take the cheaper option if it exists.

My original ROP was a 2D with 6AA NIMH cells in it, and I was NEVER happy with the result. I finally bucked up to a 4D with 6 4800ma Sub C RC car cells and the light scorches! :devil: (It wont light newspaper on fire, but it will burn a hole straight through it.)

I'm thinking though I want to get some kind of LiIon solution for my next ROP because I do like the smaller body size. (2C would be AWESOME)

 

[sb_pete]

You know ROP is the gateway. Once you try one you will want to keep moving on to more and more powerful lights. That said, I think the best way to start is to use a basic 2D available at any hardware store as a host. and then make an ROP low.
1. Buy a 3854 bulb pack. lots of places for this. I have always had good experiences with action-lights.com and they also sell glass mag lenses. You don't need a glass lens for the ROP low, but you will for the high and once you have one, you will realize just how crappy plastic lenses really are. There are certainly better lenses with nice coatings and such. But these are fine for all but the most demanding user and can be had for $3 from the same place you can buy bulbs at a decent price ($8) and then save on shipping.
2. Next get some cheapo 3aa - 1D adaptors. Kaidomain also sells glass lenses for even cheaper and has free shipping but I haven't tried those lenses. These adaptors will not work for an ROP Hi (too much resistance) and you could do better, but when you move on to brighter things, you can reuse the other stuff and you're only out $3 which you'll end up using somewhere else.
3. Now just get some batteries and a charger. Any high current NiMh AA's will do really. Yes Eneloops are awesome and Sanyo 2700's kick ***, but my ROP low runs fine on 3 year old store bought (overpriced) monster power batteries and will even work on Alkalines (for very short runtime). Batteryjunction.com has good prices on these if you don't already have some. COstco also has a deal on Eneloops providing a charger, 8aa's and 4 aaa's for $26.99.

Cost of Mag host - free if you already have a 2D - $15-$20 if not
Cost of mods $15-20
Cost of batteries - ~$30

The nice thing about the ROP low is it has long runtime and you can fall back on Alkalines if you need to. It's also cheap so you won't fret too much if you end up losing it somehow. At work I find myself using my ROP low all the time. It's bright enough that most people are totally amazed, but not so bright that using it on anything nearby leaves spots in your eyes. And if I lose it, I'm not out an arm and a leg

Should you decide to move up to an ROP hi, get yourself 1. an aluminum reflector if you plan on using it for more than short bursts of light and 2. a better battery solution like a FiveMega bat holder and you're good to go.

After that, it's on to the bi-pins...

Hope that helps,
-Pete

 

[MikeSalt]

Very glad to hear my fears are wrong. The question now becomes: which ROP? I was originally thinking of a 4 or 6 cell host, but the smaller ones seem very cool. LuxLuthor's pack looks pretty cool, but I'll take the cheaper option if it exists.

I did the 6D ROP first. To be honest, I should not have bothered. It was good, and the runtime curve was good, BUT it was too big to be used regularly. I swapped the parts into a 2D host with a FM adapter and I carry it every day in my rucksack.


With regards to the Lux packs, this is probably your least expensive option. Buying cells seperately and then buying an adapter will cost an arm and a leg.

6x Elite 1700s (@ $3.50 each) $21
FM 6AA>2D adapter $39
Delivery ~$7-10

TOTAL $67-$70

Lux has quoted me a price for a pack sent to the UK for only $62!

Of course, if you do not have a smart charger, you are better off with the FM 6AA>2D adapter because you can remove the cells.

For ROP purposes, a good battery carrier/pack and good cells are required.