What good are unprotected cells?

chelboed

Newly Enlightened
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I accidentally bought an unprotected 18650 LiIon cell from a domestic on line vendor. The only use I have for 18650 cells at the moment is my MTE SSC p7 5-mode light, and my Trustfire TR 1200 5xQ5 OTW from DX.

What I think I know:
-You can't over charge it or you'll destroy it.
-You can't let it drain down to low or you'll destroy it.

My PILA charger will be here soon, so I'm not worrying about overcharging it, but what can I do with a cell that will kill itself if I leave it in my light too long? Are there protection circuits out there that I can buy for it, or should I just use it 1/2 hr at a time until I inadvertantly forget and kill it...then replace it with a protected cell?


Thanks again for the help.
 
For a given flashlight, you can get a "feel" for how much you can use a light before it becomes dangerously undercharged. Also modest short-lived draining below the "empty" level is not always fatal for a battery. If the voltage when off-load pops back to around 3.55-3.6V you are probably ok to recharge.

Finally a lot of us own lights with built in "intelligence" to warn us of pending battery depletion. This is a preferable safety measure to protected cells that just shut down abruptly when nearing an over-drain situation.
 
Finally a lot of us own lights with built in "intelligence" to warn us of pending battery depletion. This is a preferable safety measure to protected cells that just shut down abruptly when nearing an over-drain situation.


Please give examples...I'm getting excited!
 
I run Malkoff M60L in a FiveMega 1x18650 body.

I have about 20 unprotected 18650 cells. The best ones are Panasonic 2900 mAh. Incredible runtime, 4 hours + tail.

M60L on a few cells = 140 lumens but on 1 cell, it's only about 100 lumens I guesstimate. Just a hair brighter than M60LL on 2 or 3 cells, which is 80 lumens.

You can *see* when it gets below 3.7V, or discharged. It's just obvious.

That's what I used during the last power outage. I think I went through only 2 cells, and had 20 more to go, without even dipping into the primaries.

The really cool thing is, you can stick 2x123 primaries in it and you get better lumens.
 
So the Malkoff has an intelligent indicator to warn you when the cell is getting too low?
 
When the cell is getting low it will have insufficient power left to run a high power light at full brightness, so you will see the light start to dim. The greater problem is with low power lights or multi-mode lights with low brightness settings. These lights may suck a battery right down before you notice much dimming.
 
Ahaaah...this is all so new to me. My experience with modding lights basically consists of bypassing a faulty driver and making an Akoray 106 Q5 direct drive. Though I'm fully confident that I will be able to build myself a good 3xp7 bike light when I can get enough money for a milling vice for my drill press and a hipflex.

This whole Incan vs. LED thing is really intriguing me as well.

Why are flashlights so fun? They're just flashlights. But they're just so dang fun!

Thanks...I'm not so afraid of unprotected cells now.
 
Novatac/RA/HDS flashlights all have a visual signal (blinking) that indicates low Li-Ion batteries. So does my JetBeam RRT-0. Liteflux have a very sophisticated low battery indicator system.
 
I must admit, that I accidentally bought 4x 10440 Unprotected batteries from DX...
I was trying to order protected but took wrong ones :ohgeez:

I´m not going to use them, though. Too risky I think. Maybe give away or recycle them...
 
Does the light itself have over discharge protection .... ?

Most of my lights / drivers ... have over discharge protection .
So using unprotected batteries is not really a concern .
 
I must admit, that I accidentally bought 4x 10440 Unprotected batteries from DX...
I was trying to order protected but took wrong ones :ohgeez:

I´m not going to use them, though. Too risky I think. Maybe give away or recycle them...


Don't do that - take advantage - you now have the perfect excuse to buy a LiteFlux LF2XT! :twothumbs
 
Does the light itself have over discharge protection .... ?
Most of my lights / drivers ... have over discharge protection .
So using unprotected batteries is not really a concern .

I planned to use them on my iTP A2, but I really do not know if such a cheap light even has a discharge protection :(


cistallus said:
Don't do that - take advantage - you now have the perfect excuse to buy a LiteFlux LF2XT!
Oh my... I was just hours ago reading reviews of LiteFlux and didn´t even notice that protection feature!
Sure sounds quite interesting :huh:
 
I must admit, that I accidentally bought 4x 10440 Unprotected batteries from DX...
I was trying to order protected but took wrong ones :ohgeez:

I´m not going to use them, though. Too risky I think. Maybe give away or recycle them...

Throw them out or give them away ? ... That is a waste of money.
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If you have a DMM , you can prove how long your torch will run before the voltage drops to 3.7 volts ... At that point you will still have about 20% charge left in the cell ... If you use 3.8 volts as a low point , you will still have about 40% left.

My Solarforce L2s on high will take 90 minutes to get down to 3.8 volts , so I know that there is still an hour left if I need it ... I have a couple of Ultrafire 18650 (blue) unprotected cells.

If you overdischarge the 18650 in a single cell torch , the worst thing that will happen is that the cell will just die ... You will not be able to recharge it ... If this happens , then you can throw it out (recycle it) ... Just make sure that the cells never get below 3.6 volts and you should be OK ... I prefer to use 3.7 volts on my unprotected cells ... If you are using a multi-cell torch , then just be extra careful that the cells are well matched ... It would then be a possible danger if one cell discharged well before the other(s) ... The good cells would then be forcing current through the depleted cell ... They definitely don't like that , as you will have read on several of these forums.:poof:

The advantage of an unprotected cell is that you know that you have to be a bit more careful when using it ... The disadvantage with a protected cell is that you don't know for certain whether the protection will actually work when (or if) it is needed ... I treat all my 18650s as though they are unprotected ... I just feel safer that way.
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The disadvantage with a protected cell is that you don't know for certain whether the protection will actually work when (or if) it is needed ...

You have a point.
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I could test the total runtime for these batteries, but it would be a bit difficult to know when time/energy has been used up. I use my EDC like seconds to minutes a day and not necessarily everyday.
Sure I could put batteries to charger every evening or every other evening or once a week, probing with DMM every now and then first to get "the touch" of usage.
 
You have a point.
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I could test the total runtime for these batteries, but it would be a bit difficult to know when time/energy has been used up. I use my EDC like seconds to minutes a day and not necessarily everyday.
Sure I could put batteries to charger every evening or every other evening or once a week, probing with DMM every now and then first to get "the touch" of usage.
My method is to guess-timate how much I use the torches ... I don't use them a lot really and it might be once a month that I measure the cell voltages ... If the voltage is under about 3.8 volts then I top up the cell (or cells) ... The torches in the car fortunately (so far) hardly get any use and probably will only get topped up maybe two or at worst three times a year.

If you use the torch every day , it might be necessary to estimate the total use time ... I know that my three Solarforces are down to 3.8 volts after 90 minutes and that there is still another hour left if needed ... It is just a matter of proving the discharge time to a predetermined voltage.

I switched the torch on high for 30 minutes then switched off the torch and checked the cell open circuit voltage ... I repeated this again and after the third half hour of the test , the voltage was 3.8V ... That was OK by me and I knew that I had only used up 60% of the capacity in 90 minutes.


I can guess 90 minutes ... If I guess wrongly , I don't think that I would be out by another hour , so I think it is easy ... If you are worried , it is a simple matter to just measure the cell voltage and then please yourself whether it is necessary to top-up the cell.

If you are not using the 18650 cells very much , they will probably just gradually die in a few years ... I am going to buy new Ultrafire cells (or similar) probably every four years or so for my four 18650 torches ... Maybe a couple of spares too ... I will probably do a full discharge test every year or so ... This will govern the length of time between cell replacements ... If the cells go down to 3.7 volts after 90 minutes (rather than the 3.8V) then it's time to replace with new ones.

No problem.
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I have lights that will only accept a 65mm cell, so protected is not an option.

Some lights have low voltage shutoff built into the PCB so it will not over discahrge the cell.

Unprotected cells have their uses, but protected is still the way to go for general usage.
 
I must admit, that I accidentally bought 4x 10440 Unprotected batteries from DX...

I planned to use them on my iTP A2, but I really do not know if such a cheap light even has a discharge protection

Did you mean to use the 10440's in your iTP A3? Anyhow, extending what Mr Happy describes ...

When the cell is getting low it will have insufficient power left to run a high power light at full brightness, so you will see the light start to dim. The greater problem is with low power lights or multi-mode lights with low brightness settings. These lights may suck a battery right down before you notice much dimming.

... since the A3 is a multi-mode light, AND it is risky to run unregulated (on high) for very long a light intended for 1.5V batteries with 3.7V batteries, you will generally be using the medium and low settings anyway. Every once in while you can switch to high and see if the battery is able to support full light output or not. If the light dims quickly after switching to high, then it is time to take out the drained battery.

Experts, let me know if that's faulty reasoning.
 
... since the A3 is a multi-mode light, AND it is risky to run unregulated (on high) for very long a light intended for 1.5V batteries with 3.7V batteries, you will generally be using the medium and low settings anyway. Every once in while you can switch to high and see if the battery is able to support full light output or not. If the light dims quickly after switching to high, then it is time to take out the drained battery.

Experts, let me know if that's faulty reasoning.

if you promise not to call me an expert :sigh:, i can tell you where stuff like that goes ary, even if i will Do it myself.

the driver is a boost, it has a max operating voltage of about 3-3.6v it can operate with a voltage (probably) down to .9-.7 , it keeps drawing MORE current as the voltage of the battery drops.

The moment you toss a 4.2V li-ion cell in you will slam overdrive the led into direct drive , minus a few bits and pieces of a curcuit thing that will be heating up internally.
When the voltage drops below the drive voltage of the LED it will finnaly go into regulation.
The led heats, is driven over spec (with this battery for very short times) making the led gates internally burn out a little, the battery gets heated by the led, the battery is pushed well beyond its specs , and it heats, and as you already know this could cause some issues.

on the other hand, the 10440 battery can barely output an overdrive for that led, depending on the battery quality resistance and state and all, it will just have a terrible time keeping up with any of it, so it doesnt stay bad for the led for long. the battery by default has to do a job it was not designed to do.

the battery heats, the led , the led heats the battery, the driver components heat, the others, and you have a vicious circle of cross heating, accidentally left on in the pocket, any one of the 3 things could burn out or fail. like a little Fizz pop, and the hot pants dance from the battery. the led getting low in output, and the driver failing or becomming inefficeint from carbonised components. I suppose the biggest safety issue, would be the battery going critical in pocket when driving 70MPH down freeway. which would be the same as a bee stinging your gonads while driving :mecry: maintain composure , pull off to the side of the road, then FREAK OUT :D

Further into the discharge of the battery:
eventually the voltage on the li-ion drops below the Vf of the led, and the current on the boost driver does the same thing it does to the poor alkaline, and starts trying to draw even more current off the battery.
the regulation tries to keep the led drive current going
the battery is waning down in voltage
the regulation still keeps sucking the battery harder and harder
the battery will eventually peter out still (as you indicated)
and the voltage of the li-ion cell could have been pulled as low as .7v
once the pulverisation is stopped (soon enough) the battery will recover some voltage, and rested again, look like it wasnt pulled down as hard as it was in the light.

because when the capacity of the battery is drained the output will tank ANYWAYS , if you pulled fast enough you will have only partly damaged the battery
the process of the battery being drawn on in higher currents as the voltage drops to do the boosting, will occur when the battery has the least ammount of capacity and ability to output that current.

Then Low or MED
If the light uses Current control, low or med will not overdrive the led, but as we already know it is a boost curcuit, with PWM.
So in med or low, the overdrive of the led will be going off in Pulses as opposed to continuous, but no less hard pulses that overdrive the led
the same pulses are also pulling more from the Battery then its design specs, so even though it is low or med, because it is pulsed averaging and not actual current control, both the battery and the led are still driven over spec.
the led when the battery is over the led voltage, and the battery the whole time.

on the other hand, the PWM pulsing does give the led and battery time to cool out, so the led has a chance to cool between pulses, and the same with the battery.
The battery voltage on ANY mode, could be drawn down well below specs , and will only show up this issue when it is at the total end of its capacity, WHICH if done correctlly (as you stated) will drop in voltage even more than the boost curcuit will be pulling it down in voltage, FINNALY, which should show up as a lowered light output.

WHEW, i hope i got that right.
ok with that said, i still do it :thinking: yup, but knowing that will all be happening.
 
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if you promise not to call me an expert :sigh:, i can tell you where stuff like that goes ary, even if i will Do it myself.
Man, what a great explanation!! Sounds most pro to me. Ooops, sorry.
 
Did you mean to use the 10440's in your iTP A3?

I was trying to tell you exactly that, but my fingers seemed to disagree :thumbsup:


I must be careful not to over discharge these unprotected. I dare not to use on FULL power many seconds, nasty heat :|
But after all, these are only ~2$/piece so no big loss if I screw up. ..if it doesn´t explode and burn me...
In here, regular AA/AAA NiMh batteries can easily cost you more /piece.
 
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