What is the attraction of multiple-cell AA lights?

[phosphor]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

By implication a disaster offers uncertainty and unpredictability. I bet there were plenty of folks in the areas struck hardest by the recent typhoon in the Philippines who had extra batteries of all types stashed way for an emergency. Good luck trying to get to them when your dwelling is buried in rubble, and restocking is impossible because every retail establishment has been demolished. My point is you can be prepared, but one will still be none.....and sometimes twenty will be none as well !

Buy whatever makes sense and hope for the best.....because no matter how well you prepare Mother Nature can throw you a curve ball that will FU your best laid plans.

I mostly own AA lights. I just like 'um. I don't pretent I'm any better prepared than the man that owns a light that runs on 18650s.

 

[carlb]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

What are you looking for in the light?

Able to carry it fairly comfortably, dependable, decent battery life. Needs to be bright. More or less just want one good light to cover most of my needs. Camping, out in the yard at night, power outages, etc...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

 

[Treeguy]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

With all due respect, I think that it has been pretty clearly stated in multiple threads that in wide spread power outages, and other emergencies, batteries are NOT FOR SALE. You had better have them before the emergency, OR have rechargeables, and a means to charge them, especially if things "get funky for days and even weeks!"

I understand that you need to have batteries prior to an emergency – which I do - but should there be a further need of batteries, needing the type that will be most readily available and work in several different types of devices makes the most sense. And batteries ARE FOR SALE here, granted they are not always easy to find in an emergency.

As for a means of recharging batteries; when the power was out here for a few weeks last December, and the temperature was in the -10 to -20 range, and it was cloudy and snowing and windy, and finding an open gas station was problematic at best if you weren't willing to drive 30 kilometers just to get there, may I ask for your suggestion as to how one should best have recharged his batteries?

 

[dss_777]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

As for a means of recharging batteries; when the power was out here for a few weeks last December, and the temperature was in the -10 to -20 range, and it was cloudy and snowing and windy, and finding an open gas station was problematic at best if you weren't willing to drive 30 kilometers just to get there, may I ask for your suggestion as to how one should best have recharged his batteries?

I think anyone faced with that as a possibility should have redundant preps. "Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst."

That would mean plenty of primaries plus rechargeables with chargers for AC mains, solar, car. Very appropriate to consider a generator and stored fuel. I'd also stock extra fuel for the car as a last resort for maintaining charging if homebound, or for the need to drive when the gas stations are closed.

You could easily prep for several weeks of no power, and much longer depending on how deep you were willing to go with your preps.

 

[Poppy]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

I understand that you need to have batteries prior to an emergency – which I do - but should there be a further need of batteries, needing the type that will be most readily available and work in several different types of devices makes the most sense. And batteries ARE FOR SALE here, granted they are not always easy to find in an emergency.

As for a means of recharging batteries; when the power was out here for a few weeks last December, and the temperature was in the -10 to -20 range, and it was cloudy and snowing and windy, and finding an open gas station was problematic at best if you weren't willing to drive 30 kilometers just to get there, may I ask for your suggestion as to how one should best have recharged his batteries?

Treeguy my friend, you seem to be going to extremes to make your point, but I'll play
Snowy, cloudy and windy rules out solar.
I don't have a Peltier thermoelectric generator so I wouldn't be able to charge them while heating the house or cooking some nice warming soup.
Hand cranking generator is too much work.
Oh... I know when you go out into the cold to buy some AAs, I'll hand you my chargers, and ask you to plug them into your cigar lighter! Boy... that was easy

Seriously, with temperatures that cold, your car/truck battery will be struggling to crank the engine over. I didn't look the numbers up, but they really loose cranking amps when they get below freezing. You might consider installing quick disconnects on your battery, so you can bring it in the house and keep it warm. If you typically use a battery warmer, when the power is out, the warmer will not be working. Now... with the car/truck battery inside the house, one can easily charge his little flashlight batteries without significantly draining it. For a more thorough discussion of using the car battery, see this power outage thread.

One more thing, when you go for gas, go to this one, it is 10 km closer

Just buying gas at the one open station was a twenty-kilometer trip and then you had line ups.

 

[Treeguy]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

Well if I can't play with my friends from New Jersey, who can I play with?

And you got me on the gas stations, so I Google Earthed it: a tad over 20 kilometers if I go south and 30 if I go north. Thank you adhering to accurate standards.

As for the cold and the car, I can assure you it starts. -30, it still starts, though it does make the same noise you or I would getting out of bed on a morning that cold. -30 is not rare here. -40, that's something else. -20 is routine. And we never bring the battery into the house. As for charging batteries in the car, you have to remember that in a winter emergency gasoline (like batteries) is at a premium, being shared with generators and tools, and driving conditions are usually bad – traffic lights down, road crews overworked and roads uncleared of snow, hydro lines and trees on the roads. And running your car in the driveway just to charge batteries could be seen as... inefficient. In the end, hunkering down and preserving your supplies is usually the best option.

Anyway, I don't feel I am going to extremes, I'm merely voicing an opinion based on my experiences. And as I have lived and worked through many a blackout, including some situations that could realistically be viewed as emergency situations, I figure my opinion is at least as relevant as the next person's. And yours.

 

[Poppy]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

Well if I can't play with my friends from New Jersey, who can I play with?

LOL... the check's in the mail :thumbsup:

 

[Disciple]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

By implication a disaster offers uncertainty and unpredictability. I bet there were plenty of folks in the areas struck hardest by the recent typhoon in the Philippines who had extra batteries of all types stashed way for an emergency. Good luck trying to get to them when your dwelling is buried in rubble, and restocking is impossible because every retail establishment has been demolished.

This could be a good reason to EDC a flashlight with a built-in charger and a standard micro-USB interface such as the NiteCore MH2C. Even if you get separated from your supply of batteries and even chargers you would still likely be able to recharge your flashlight with found USB power.

Additional thanks to Disciple for starting this thread.

You're welcome!

As for a means of recharging batteries; when the power was out here for a few weeks last December, and the temperature was in the -10 to -20 range, and it was cloudy and snowing and windy, and finding an open gas station was problematic at best if you weren't willing to drive 30 kilometers just to get there, may I ask for your suggestion as to how one should best have recharged his batteries?

Were you on wood fire during this time? How were your other needs met?

]Anyway, I don't feel I am going to extremes, I'm merely voicing an opinion based on my experiences. And as I have lived and worked through many a blackout, including some situations that could realistically be viewed as emergency situations, I figure my opinion is at least as relevant as the next person's.

Yes, and I thank you for it. I'm here to learn.

 

[wjv]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

I like AA's for traveling because:

- Some of my 1xAA lights have REALLY low 0.09-1.5 lumen modes which makes a nice night light for a hotel room
- The people at TSA don't get bent out of shape with AA lights going through security. Though in all honesty they are MUCH better about rechargeable 18650s than they use to be
- Carrying 8 spare batteries requires little effort/luggage space
- Can buy AA batteries almost everywhere (even in China, India and such)
- The 1xAA and 2xAA lights also are easy to carry in a pocket as a EDC, when traveling
- Most 1xAA lights are a good mix of flood/throw so they are good general purpose lights


I like my 18650 and CR123 lights, but I do have a couple AA lights
ITP C8T
Jetbeam BA20
EagleTac D25A click in NW
Fenix E11
Fenix LD10
ITP A2-EOS
L3 Illumination L10 in NW

The LD10 gets used the most, but for traveling the L10 has the 0.09L mode, the D25A has a 0.45L mode, and the A2-EOS has the 1.5L mode. The E11 is kept in my Get Home bag (empty) with a 10 pack of alkalines. I wanted the light in my Get Home bag to be a simple to use light with a clicky and momentary capability.

 

[Treeguy]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

Were you on wood fire during this time? How were your other needs met?

No, a generator. We renod the house and our new roof is made of stress skin panels and there is no way anyone is going to drill a hole through those things. One little leak and you're doomed.

For the rest, we try to always keep the car full of gas in the winter, and we have plenty of propane for lights and cooking. Also, the nature of my work puts me with a great group of guys who are, by the nature of our work and where we live, mobile, skilled with tools, and pretty independant. So there is a lot of help available if any one person gets into trouble. A 10-pack of AA friends, if you will.

Yes, and I thank you for it. I'm here to learn.

Me too. :thumbsup:

 

[thedoc007]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

I understand that you need to have batteries prior to an emergency – which I do - but should there be a further need of batteries, needing the type that will be most readily available and work in several different types of devices makes the most sense.

Actually, this might be a reason to use unusual battery types, especially if you know there is a place nearby which stocks the weird stuff. EVERYONE will be going after the common sizes and types - if you are the only one in your area using a certain type, they might become EASIER to find than the common types.

If you are really serious about disaster prep (I am not) then you need a solar or wind powered charger, and having massive stockpiles is moot. Eventually you'll run out of cells to scavenge, regardless of type. If you are just planning for "normal" outages, it is pretty easy to stock enough cells to give you a couple weeks of runtime at decent levels (not running your entire collection on high, but enough to be useful).

And running your car in the driveway just to charge batteries could be seen as... inefficient.

A masterful understatement. Well said sir!

 

[Poppy]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

<SNIP>

Originally Posted by Treeguy
And running your car in the driveway just to charge batteries could be seen as... inefficient

A masterful understatement. Well said sir!

thedoc, I think that Treeguy was referencing

the engine would have to run about a minute for each battery.
If we do the math, and extrapolate out, 7 X 8= 56 days (of 6-7 hours @ 100 lumens) times 1- 18650 battery / day= 56 batteries, and 56 minutes of engine running - burning between 2-3 gallons, and in my car that is 1/8 to 3/16ths of a tank.

In two months, I would hope that I was able to make a few trips to the grocery store, or HUNGER will be my bigger concern. While going for groceries, I would be recharging the car battery.

from THIS POST
I agree... inefficient was a beautifully delicate adjective to use.

The point I was making was for 8 weeks off grid, and that the car, while running to and from the grocery store, can be an efficient means of supplying battery power. Also, that you should keep your car well fueled especially when there is a prediction of an impending storm. I wasn't really suggesting that one should just let the car idle in the driveway, yet, if one does not have a generator, and does have a full tank of gas, it will work.

Please Note: The math was done for 18650 batteries as an example. The same can be done for AAs. The point is that rechargeables can be used for EXTENDED off grid scenarios.

 

[Treeguy]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

I wasn't implying that you suggested letting the car run in the driveway for two-hours just to recharge a few batteries; I was implying only that if one was hunkered down and not going anywhere, yet had batteries that could only be recharged in the car, that charging the batteries could be problematic.

I'm not arguing against the merits of what you are saying in general, just seeking an explanation I can understand better. And to be honest, if one is hunkered down in bad weather, I am still at a loss as to how one will recharge batteries.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a $100 fancy-shmancy charger and a drawer full of Eneloops, but my budget, and to some extent my reasoning, dictates otherwise. But I am always open to new and better ideas.

 

[Poppy]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

Treeguy,
As you know, I am in New Jersey. We don't get snowfalls deep enough that I couldn't get out to my car, even if we were "hunkered down". Even if you had to climb out a window, and shovel your way to your car, I imagine that you could get to it.

Its my understanding that the AVERAGE car battery has about 1000 watt hours of energy.
I calculate that a 3000 ma 18650 has 12 watt hours, and a 2000 ma eneloop has 3 watt hours.

If you deplete the car battery by less than 10%, it should still start. If its not too cold out, you could probably deplete it more.
If you charge 6 fully depleted 18650s, or 24 fully depleted AA eneloops, you'd deplete the car battery about 8%.

If your cigar lighter outlet/power port works without the key ON, then it is really simple.
The nitecore intellicharger is less than $30 with the car plug adapter. (The Xtar WP6-2 was about the same.)
Just plug it in, insert 4 AA batteries, or 4 18650 batteries, and come back in about 40 minutes for the AAs or 90 minutes for the 18650s. (I'm only guessing at the times)

Depending upon how much light you want/need, 6 fully charged 18650s or 24 fully charged eneloops can last one to six weeks. Just to be clear, you can have only four eneloops, or one or two 18650s, and recharge them multiple times during the course of the outage, and it will not be any additional drain on the car battery. So, it doesn't matter if you have a stock-pile of eneloops, or only four or eight.

AND, if you take the car anywhere, the alternator will replace the energy in about 6 minutes.

 

[bassopotamus]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

I recently purchased my first quality light, and I have to say, sourcing 18650s at a decent price on short order has been a total drag. Came in a package with 1 18650, and since the day it arrived, I've been trying to add a couple more, without success. I still don't have my batteries from a recommended seller almost 3 weeks later (I think they really shipped them fast, but they are somewhere between Hong Kong and Iowa). Battery 2, from amazon, had a less prominent button top than it appeared in pic, and doesn't work with said light, so it is headed back. Battery 3, ordered with 2 day shipping, may or may not make it to me in before I leave on the trip I bought the battery for. Should work, but double the price of the others.

Bottom line, In a multiple AA light, I could have used any of the dozen eneloops I have sitting around the house, and in a pinch I could get more batteries in pretty much anywhere. I'm sure I will get this all squared away eventually, but It's not like I can walk into a drug store and walk out with an 18650

 

[thedoc007]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

...sourcing 18650s at a decent price on short order has been a total drag. Came in a package with 1 18650, and since the day it arrived, I've been trying to add a couple more, without success. I still don't have my batteries from a recommended seller almost 3 weeks later (I think they really shipped them fast, but they are somewhere between Hong Kong and Iowa). Battery 2, from amazon, had a less prominent button top than it appeared in pic, and doesn't work with said light, so it is headed back. Battery 3, ordered with 2 day shipping, may or may not make it to me in before I leave on the trip I bought the battery for. Should work, but double the price of the others.

I hear you, man. The lack of a clear (enforced or respected) standard is very unfortunate. It is bad enough in a niche market like CPF (where we can research and get advice from real experts), but for the average person, it is a deal-breaker. If you buy an AA battery, you know it will fit properly...cannot fathom why 18650s don't have the same guaranteed compatibility. If you are willing, go ahead and name the specific light/cells you bought - someone else may learn from your experience.

Bottom line, In a multiple AA light, I could have used any of the dozen eneloops I have sitting around the house, and in a pinch I could get more batteries in pretty much anywhere. I'm sure I will get this all squared away eventually, but It's not like I can walk into a drug store and walk out with an 18650

I am actually the other way around - I have more than 20 18650s within reach right now, and only a few AA/AAA cells that get used in remotes, clocks, meters, etc. Once you get a decent number of cells (how many depends on usage, might only be a couple for some people) it will become a non-issue. So for me, the bottom line is, I always have 18650s on hand, and the AA/AAA batteries I do have are likely to be in use, and at least partially drained. I don't think this is a valid reason to go with either type...just a matter of preparation.

Also, you may not be able to walk into a drugstore, but there are some retail shops that do carry them. I have a battery store less than ten miles away that does carry 18650s. If sourcing them locally is that important to you (and you have no stores around that carry them), certainly AA might be better for you - but again this an issue that depends entirely on your situation, and not a good reason to avoid using 18650s as a general rule.

My point is simply that it can go either way, and being prepared well ahead of time would avoid some of the problems you are experiencing now. Thanks for sharing your experience!

 

[bassopotamus]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

I hear you, man. The lack of a clear (enforced or respected) standard is very unfortunate. It is bad enough in a niche market like CPF (where we can research and get advice from real experts), but for the average person, it is a deal-breaker. If you buy an AA battery, you know it will fit properly...cannot fathom why 18650s don't have the same guaranteed compatibility. If you are willing, go ahead and name the specific light/cells you bought - someone else may learn from your experience.



I am actually the other way around - I have more than 20 18650s within reach right now, and only a few AA/AAA cells that get used in remotes, clocks, meters, etc. Once you get a decent number of cells (how many depends on usage, might only be a couple for some people) it will become a non-issue. So for me, the bottom line is, I always have 18650s on hand, and the AA/AAA batteries I do have are likely to be in use, and at least partially drained. I don't think this is a valid reason to go with either type...just a matter of preparation.

Also, you may not be able to walk into a drugstore, but there are some retail shops that do carry them. I have a battery store less than ten miles away that does carry 18650s. If sourcing them locally is that important to you (and you have no stores around that carry them), certainly AA might be better for you - but again this an issue that depends entirely on your situation, and not a good reason to avoid using 18650s as a general rule.

My point is simply that it can go either way, and being prepared well ahead of time would avoid some of the problems you are experiencing now. Thanks for sharing your experience!

I'm just a little ranty tonight, I'm sure it will all work out, and under normal circumstances, there wouldn't even be the time pressure. And someday, like you, I'll probably have a decent stash of 18650s to use. I live in a kind of mid sized city, and I can't think of any place locally that would stock 18650s, but I'm sure in a bigger metro, there probably are places.

As for the specific's of my tale of woe (may as well continue to be melodramatic): Flashlight is a Nitecore SRT7 (I don't own any other fancy flashlights, but this one seems awesome).

Battery one, are a couple Protected 3400 Panasonics from Fasttech. It appears that they have a decent button top to them and hopefully will work. Battery 2 was a 2 pack of unprotected Panasonic 3400s from Amazon, which are basically flat tops, and a no go in my light. battery 3, which hopefully will get here before I leave on my hunt is a nitecore 3400, which I'm sure will work (I have another nitecore battery already). Only gripe is that it is 20 bucks for one...

 

[Treeguy]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

Treeguy,
As you know, I am in New Jersey. We don't get snowfalls deep enough that I couldn't get out to my car, even if we were "hunkered down". Even if you had to climb out a window, and shovel your way to your car, I imagine that you could get to it.

Yes, we can always get to the car. No, we cannot always get out with the car.

If a blizzard and bad roads (and power outage) are compounded by heavy storm damage, trees and powerlines down, then a bad day or two with limited mobility can turn into several bad days with very limited mobility. And as sure as night follows day, when the skies clear after the blizzard, the temperature is going to plummet. It can be a very uncomfortable challenge if you're not prepared.

Its my understanding that the AVERAGE car battery has about 1000 watt hours of energy.
I calculate that a 3000 ma 18650 has 12 watt hours, and a 2000 ma eneloop has 3 watt hours.

If you deplete the car battery by less than 10%, it should still start. If its not too cold out, you could probably deplete it more.
If you charge 6 fully depleted 18650s, or 24 fully depleted AA eneloops, you'd deplete the car battery about 8%.

If your cigar lighter outlet/power port works without the key ON, then it is really simple.
The nitecore intellicharger is less than $30 with the car plug adapter. (The Xtar WP6-2 was about the same.)
Just plug it in, insert 4 AA batteries, or 4 18650 batteries, and come back in about 40 minutes for the AAs or 90 minutes for the 18650s. (I'm only guessing at the times)

Depending upon how much light you want/need, 6 fully charged 18650s or 24 fully charged eneloops can last one to six weeks. Just to be clear, you can have only four eneloops, or one or two 18650s, and recharge them multiple times during the course of the outage, and it will not be any additional drain on the car battery. So, it doesn't matter if you have a stock-pile of eneloops, or only four or eight.

AND, if you take the car anywhere, the alternator will replace the energy in about 6 minutes.

Well you know a lot more about that than I do. I appreciate the info. :thumbsup:

 

[thedoc007]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

Its my understanding that the AVERAGE car battery has about 1000 watt hours of energy.
I calculate that a 3000 ma 18650 has 12 watt hours, and a 2000 ma eneloop has 3 watt hours.

If you deplete the car battery by less than 10%, it should still start. If its not too cold out, you could probably deplete it more.
If you charge 6 fully depleted 18650s, or 24 fully depleted AA eneloops, you'd deplete the car battery about 8%.

Actually, you need to at least double that drain. Rule of thumb, you need twice as much energy going into a battery, as you will actually get out. So your 12 watt hour cell will take more like 24 watt hours from the car battery (to charge fully from empty), or more if you also account for inefficiencies in the charger.

The nitecore intellicharger is less than $30 with the car plug adapter. (The Xtar WP6-2 was about the same.)
Just plug it in, insert 4 AA batteries, or 4 18650 batteries, and come back in about 40 minutes for the AAs or 90 minutes for the 18650s. (I'm only guessing at the times)

The Nitecore will take around 10 hours to fully charge 4 18650s (if they are fully depleted). That is why people complain about it sometimes - it IS a slow charger, no doubt about that. If you want a 90 minute charge, look elsewhere. I like the slow charge, because it is easier on the cells. Only about 1/6C if you have both channels loaded, or a still modest 1/3C with only one cell per channel (with 18650).

Depending upon how much light you want/need, 6 fully charged 18650s or 24 fully charged eneloops can last one to six weeks. Just to be clear, you can have only four eneloops, or one or two 18650s, and recharge them multiple times during the course of the outage, and it will not be any additional drain on the car battery. So, it doesn't matter if you have a stock-pile of eneloops, or only four or eight.

AND, if you take the car anywhere, the alternator will replace the energy in about 6 minutes.

This is why it is actually sensible, despite the numerical errors in your post. You don't need to sit in the driveway with it running to charge, just have to run for a few minutes at idle (which burns relatively little gas, especially with a modern engine) every so often to make sure you aren't discharging your car battery too much.

 

[Poppy]

Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?

Actually, you need to at least double that drain. Rule of thumb, you need twice as much energy going into a battery, as you will actually get out. So your 12 watt hour cell will take more like 24 watt hours from the car battery (to charge fully from empty), or more if you also account for inefficiencies in the charger.



The Nitecore will take around 10 hours to fully charge 4 18650s (if they are fully depleted). That is why people complain about it sometimes - it IS a slow charger, no doubt about that. If you want a 90 minute charge, look elsewhere. I like the slow charge, because it is easier on the cells. Only about 1/6C if you have both channels loaded, or a still modest 1/3C with only one cell per channel (with 18650).



This is why it is actually sensible, despite the numerical errors in your post. You don't need to sit in the driveway with it running to charge, just have to run for a few minutes at idle (which burns relatively little gas, especially with a modern engine) every so often to make sure you aren't discharging your car battery too much.

TheDoc007,
I bow my head to your greater knowledge :thumbsup:
As I stated in my post, I was guessing at the charge times.

Now, I'll admit, that I was also guessing at the allowable discharge for the car battery that would still allow it to start an engine. Certainly this can not be written in stone, because how healthy the car battery is, (how old the battery is) is a huge part of the determining factor. At any rate. Using Treeguy as an example, he states that his car will start even at -30 degrees, I assume Celsius. According to this source,

The standard rating for batteries is at room temperature... 25 degrees C (about 77 F). At approximately -22 degrees F (-27 C), battery AH capacity drops to 50%. At freezing, capacity is reduced by 20%. Taken from source

; with that information, my statement that one could drain the car battery by 10% appears to be quite conservative.
Please consider this MacGyverism, if you pull too much energy out of your car battery while it is sitting in the driveway, that it can not crank the engine over fast enough for it to start, if you pull the battery out, and bring it inside to warm up, it may regain enough energy to start the car. You might regain 20-50% capacity depending upon how cold it is outside.