knucklegary
Flashlight Enthusiast
I kept telling my daughters friend "Do Not put the tritium flashlight in your mouth!" These kids just won't listen...
What was your prep for today?
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I bought solder 95% tin and 5% silver, replaced the headphone jack. The sound is definitely better, but mostly due to better brass connectors. The old ones were made of iron.
aznsx
Flashlight Enthusiast
I looked to see if that radium dial story I mentioned is documented and quickly pulled this up, in case anyone might find it interesting:
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I believe the mantles used in propane lanterns are radioactive due to the thorium dioxide. I remember my physics teacher holding a Geiger counter probe near them and made the counter click.Thanks for the listing.
Also, my modern-day digital, compact, hand-held Geiger counter came in the mail earlier today. Ironically, I have no way of actually testing it.
IMA SOL MAN
Flashlight Enthusiast
I'm not sure, but seems like somewhere I read that Coleman had discontinued using a radioactive element in their mantles. So having a radiation detector could be handy identifying the older mantles.
IMA SOL MAN
Flashlight Enthusiast
What did you get? Link?Thanks for the listing.
Also, my modern-day digital, compact, hand-held Geiger counter came in the mail earlier today. Ironically, I have no way of actually testing it.
Can't post a link since it's a seller's link on eBay.
Was a bit surprised to see foreign writing on the box.
Do a search on there for "GM Geiger Counter."
Should come up. Scroll down just a bit.
aznsx
Flashlight Enthusiast
Ain't no moderator, but geiger counters, etc. should probably be in another forum section like 'non-flashlight electronics', but since it's not, I'm gonna post this here.
Woke up with that pesky little red light on in my brain again today, and when I saw a post alert about this subject, I realized it was turned on due to something I read here yesterday.
I come here explicitly and deliberately to learn, but not to teach. While I don't intend to teach, and don't have time / will to do any research, I will pass along only what I (believe) I can recall from school, many, many decades ago. If you know factually that anything I type here is incorrect, please do let me know, because again I want to learn; and worst case is for me to think I know something which I do not. That's disallowed.
I'm not an 'expert', but I did study both geiger counters, and the full range of microwave systems and applications in school, and I think I can separate the two somewhat here.
What turned on the light was 2 (incongruous) things too close together. The confusion arises from the term 'radiation', which although may cover some things which have similarities, also covers things which are fundamentally different. It can lead to 'apples and oranges' very quickly. My premise here is simply this:
I do not believe it is possible to either detect or measure the electromagnetic 'radiation' from a 'microwave' oven if it leaked (which it should not unless it is defective) using a 'Geiger counter'.
MIcrowave ovens use electomagnetic radiation like that used in communications transmission systems, radar systems, etc. It's electromagnetic energy of a 'wave' (but not 'particulate') nature, at very short wavelengths, and is not 'ionizing' radiation. (By the way, the original commercial microwave oven [the Amana Radarange] was aptly named, and arose from the discovery by a chap working with radar systems who realized the chocolate candy in his shirt pocket was being softened / melted inordinately while at work [of all things].) Microwaves at significant power levels are (or were) generated by either Klystrons or Magnetrons (both of which I studied); both of them in radar transmitters, and the latter in the ovens we use, and both are considered in the broad category of 'tubes' (although they are quite different). That is detected and measured by things such as RF field-strength meters, RF spectrum analyzers, etc.
Geiger counters use (or did) GM (Geiger-Mueller) tubes to detect 'ionizing' radiation, which has a 'particulate' nature, such as sub-atomic particles given off by 'radioactive' materials. The particles enter the detector tube and cause 'ionization' to occur in the detector, the output of which is then detected and measured by the Geiger counter's electronics it is connected to.
I surmise from this that no one can detect 'radiation' from a microwave oven using a 'Geiger counter'.
In case anyone doesn't know this, civilian / consumer use of Geiger counters was given rise to in earlier parts of last century when there was a 'uranium rush' in the U.S., not unlike the 'gold rush' which preceded it, and everyone's heard of. Similarly, many, many people bought a Geiger counter (which were somewhat large [and likely fairly expensive] and were of course vacuum tube operated) and 'rushed' out West to places like Nevada to prospect for Uranium. Apparently there was very good money in finding a good deposit. I had one of those as a small kid which had come into my family from somewhere obscure, and I recall playing with it and (ultimately) disassembling it somewhat (of course) to see what was inside. Perhaps ironically, but perhaps even predictably, I would later study the schematic of practically the same unit in school.
Anyway, if anyone buys a Geiger counter and wants to check their microwave oven, etc., I believe they will find that to be impossible and will thus be disappointed.
Woke up with that pesky little red light on in my brain again today, and when I saw a post alert about this subject, I realized it was turned on due to something I read here yesterday.
I come here explicitly and deliberately to learn, but not to teach. While I don't intend to teach, and don't have time / will to do any research, I will pass along only what I (believe) I can recall from school, many, many decades ago. If you know factually that anything I type here is incorrect, please do let me know, because again I want to learn; and worst case is for me to think I know something which I do not. That's disallowed.
I'm not an 'expert', but I did study both geiger counters, and the full range of microwave systems and applications in school, and I think I can separate the two somewhat here.
What turned on the light was 2 (incongruous) things too close together. The confusion arises from the term 'radiation', which although may cover some things which have similarities, also covers things which are fundamentally different. It can lead to 'apples and oranges' very quickly. My premise here is simply this:
I do not believe it is possible to either detect or measure the electromagnetic 'radiation' from a 'microwave' oven if it leaked (which it should not unless it is defective) using a 'Geiger counter'.
MIcrowave ovens use electomagnetic radiation like that used in communications transmission systems, radar systems, etc. It's electromagnetic energy of a 'wave' (but not 'particulate') nature, at very short wavelengths, and is not 'ionizing' radiation. (By the way, the original commercial microwave oven [the Amana Radarange] was aptly named, and arose from the discovery by a chap working with radar systems who realized the chocolate candy in his shirt pocket was being softened / melted inordinately while at work [of all things].) Microwaves at significant power levels are (or were) generated by either Klystrons or Magnetrons (both of which I studied); both of them in radar transmitters, and the latter in the ovens we use, and both are considered in the broad category of 'tubes' (although they are quite different). That is detected and measured by things such as RF field-strength meters, RF spectrum analyzers, etc.
Geiger counters use (or did) GM (Geiger-Mueller) tubes to detect 'ionizing' radiation, which has a 'particulate' nature, such as sub-atomic particles given off by 'radioactive' materials. The particles enter the detector tube and cause 'ionization' to occur in the detector, the output of which is then detected and measured by the Geiger counter's electronics it is connected to.
I surmise from this that no one can detect 'radiation' from a microwave oven using a 'Geiger counter'.
In case anyone doesn't know this, civilian / consumer use of Geiger counters was given rise to in earlier parts of last century when there was a 'uranium rush' in the U.S., not unlike the 'gold rush' which preceded it, and everyone's heard of. Similarly, many, many people bought a Geiger counter (which were somewhat large [and likely fairly expensive] and were of course vacuum tube operated) and 'rushed' out West to places like Nevada to prospect for Uranium. Apparently there was very good money in finding a good deposit. I had one of those as a small kid which had come into my family from somewhere obscure, and I recall playing with it and (ultimately) disassembling it somewhat (of course) to see what was inside. Perhaps ironically, but perhaps even predictably, I would later study the schematic of practically the same unit in school.
Anyway, if anyone buys a Geiger counter and wants to check their microwave oven, etc., I believe they will find that to be impossible and will thus be disappointed.
idleprocess
Flashaholic
I would imagine not since they're nearly opposite one another on the electromagnetic spectrum.
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How I understand and remember the mechanism (by no means am I an expert or infallible):
Geiger-Mueller tubes detect ionization and produces the count or (optionally) an audible click through the wire inside a gas-filled tube.
The radiation needs to be high enough energy to ionize atoms and molecules. Microwave is not an ionizing form of EM radiation. The higher levels of energy (UV through gamma) are potentially ionizing EM radiation. Other forms of ionizing radiation include alpha and beta particles.
The GM tube neither detects the photon, alpha, or beta forms of radiation themselves; rather the ionizing effect when the radiation collides with and ionizes the gas. This means a GM counter could be clicking and counting a large amount, but will not tell you the source or type of energy.
Source articles:
NRC.gov
CDC
Geiger-Mueller tubes detect ionization and produces the count or (optionally) an audible click through the wire inside a gas-filled tube.
The radiation needs to be high enough energy to ionize atoms and molecules. Microwave is not an ionizing form of EM radiation. The higher levels of energy (UV through gamma) are potentially ionizing EM radiation. Other forms of ionizing radiation include alpha and beta particles.
The GM tube neither detects the photon, alpha, or beta forms of radiation themselves; rather the ionizing effect when the radiation collides with and ionizes the gas. This means a GM counter could be clicking and counting a large amount, but will not tell you the source or type of energy.
Source articles:
NRC.gov
CDC
Last edited:
aznsx
Flashlight Enthusiast
And also the 'particulate' nature of the 'ionizing radiation', vs microwave RF (which I believe is wave, but is not particulate in nature), and is not considered 'ionizing radiation'. Gieger counters operate on 'ionization'. There's nothing I see that is similar in terms of detection requirements. So, it's a bit different from simply wavelength distinction; it's also of fundamentally different nature. That's what was trying to articulate, but perhaps didn't do a good job of above.
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Electromagnetic radiation from radio up to gamma are all photons and technically particles. They behave like waves. Our flashlights emitting visible light also fall on the spectrum. Only when the frequency of the photon is above a certain point does it carry enough energy to dislodge electrons from an atom or molecule, and therefore ionize it.
IMA SOL MAN
Flashlight Enthusiast
Sorry, I don't have enough apples for all the Physics professors here, so, no one gets one.
idleprocess
Flashaholic
Physicist I'm not either, but I gather the extremely short wavelength of gamma rays allows interactions with matter in ways that lesser wavelengths are fundamentally incapable of ... in a fashion that's similar to how alpha and beta particles can interact with matter, thus the ability of a Geiger counter to detect all three as scalpel_ninja put it.
aznsx
Flashlight Enthusiast
QUOTE:
"It is possible for Geiger counters to measure nuclear or ionizing radiation. Radiation from microcellular phones, microwave ovens, cellular phones, power lines, and electric appliances is non-ionizing electromagnetic radiation, which cannot be sensed using these instruments."
Source:
Measuring Everyday Radiation and the Electromagnetic Spectrum Using Geiger Counters
Detection of X-rays is done using Geiger counters but it may not be able to measure the dose rate. This is due to the fact that an X-ray is a concentrated short burst radiation. Events are individually ionized in its Geiger tube and a Geiger counter measurement is performed.
www.azosensors.com
Please advise AFTER you've tried this, or have a link to any contradicting factual source.
Thank you all!
AZ out...
I knew that post was in error, but didn't say anything.
Medical Xray equipment by use of a transformer generates 60 KVp for small, easy to penetrate things like digits, and 80-100 KVp for denser objects like the lumbar spine.
That's 80,000 volts to 100,000 volts.
Not found in your typical microwave.
Medical Xray equipment by use of a transformer generates 60 KVp for small, easy to penetrate things like digits, and 80-100 KVp for denser objects like the lumbar spine.
That's 80,000 volts to 100,000 volts.
Not found in your typical microwave.
Bull-Dozer
Newly Enlightened
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- Sep 1, 2020
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- 92
This season I added roughly $400 worth of additional fishing and outdoor gear. To be clear I am not a big spender by any means, I had been saving up for quite some time. Things fell together and I pulled the trigger.
Some of the more notable items being a Coleman propane stove along with a collapsible Coleman oven to go on top of it plus a tote full of one pound propane bottles. As for fishing I finally bought a net which makes wear and tear lighter on the fish, the gear and my back. Baking cookies on a old fashioned Coleman is pretty neat.
If anybody is looking for impressive panfish bait I have been catching a ton this year on "Berkley Gulp! Alive" maggots (artificial bait). They pull out of the little jar in strands. You can break off one small maggot at a time but it doesn't work as well as keeping three or four attached. This way they present as a thin worm dangling from the hook.
Why not real worms? Because I almost never use them all in time and I wanted something I can forget about in a pack or vehicle. A can of real worms has the worst smell when they rot. Putrid is not a strong enough word. Anyhow, I really like having all sorts of fake bait on hand. Collecting bait and tackle is half the fun, at least for me.
Some of the more notable items being a Coleman propane stove along with a collapsible Coleman oven to go on top of it plus a tote full of one pound propane bottles. As for fishing I finally bought a net which makes wear and tear lighter on the fish, the gear and my back. Baking cookies on a old fashioned Coleman is pretty neat.
If anybody is looking for impressive panfish bait I have been catching a ton this year on "Berkley Gulp! Alive" maggots (artificial bait). They pull out of the little jar in strands. You can break off one small maggot at a time but it doesn't work as well as keeping three or four attached. This way they present as a thin worm dangling from the hook.
Why not real worms? Because I almost never use them all in time and I wanted something I can forget about in a pack or vehicle. A can of real worms has the worst smell when they rot. Putrid is not a strong enough word. Anyhow, I really like having all sorts of fake bait on hand. Collecting bait and tackle is half the fun, at least for me.
My daughter's car needed a front right lower ball joint. It gets replaced with the lower control arm as a unit. I got it at Rock Auto, but when I jacked the car up, and crawled underneath I thought "Screw this! This is going to be more time on my back under the car than I care to do." So I took it to a mechanic I trust.
He called me and said he got 3 of the four bolts loose, but was concerned he might snap the fourth one off... then we would both be screwed! He suggested that I might leave it alone or take it to Midas where they could apply heat to it.
There's a muffler shop that I've been to who does good work at a reasonable price. His shop is in a lower income section and his prices reflect that. I know that he does welding, and I figured that if he snapped the bolt, that he could possibly weld the control arm in place.
My daughter surprised me with... "Dad I want to drive to Florida and leave in four days."
So Monday morning we swapped cars, and I took her's to the shop. I ubered home.
I told the shop owner that another mechanic was concerned about snapping one of the bolts. He assured me that he would get it off.
Finally at 5:40 I get a call that her car was done. They close at 6:00. So we rush down there, and pick up her car after he gives it a little test drive through a parking lot.
On the way home her brake pedal goes almost to the floor, and her brake light comes on.
I check and there's a brake fluid leak in the area of where he was working. I surmise that he had to pull the brake caliper to get at a bolt and let it hang by the brake hose, and split it. So now it's 6:30 his shop is closed, my daughter needs her car in the morning, and me mine.
I call around to three different parts stores, none of them have the brake hose in stock, but can get it sometime the next day. OK, so I get under the car with some paper towels, and a flashlight, and discover that the brake line hose was dry, but it appeared that it was dripping form the connection to the caliper. With a 12mm wrench, it took the slightest bit of tightening, but that fixed the leak. It's great to have tools on hand.
I bought a new jar of DOT 3 hydraulic fluid and topped it off.
So now the car is prepped for a road trip.
Considering that Murphy's Law was fully in play, I'm hoping that he doesn't come back for another couple of weeks.
Just as an aside, I couldn't have done this job without a flashlight.
He called me and said he got 3 of the four bolts loose, but was concerned he might snap the fourth one off... then we would both be screwed! He suggested that I might leave it alone or take it to Midas where they could apply heat to it.
There's a muffler shop that I've been to who does good work at a reasonable price. His shop is in a lower income section and his prices reflect that. I know that he does welding, and I figured that if he snapped the bolt, that he could possibly weld the control arm in place.
My daughter surprised me with... "Dad I want to drive to Florida and leave in four days."
So Monday morning we swapped cars, and I took her's to the shop. I ubered home.
I told the shop owner that another mechanic was concerned about snapping one of the bolts. He assured me that he would get it off.
Finally at 5:40 I get a call that her car was done. They close at 6:00. So we rush down there, and pick up her car after he gives it a little test drive through a parking lot.
On the way home her brake pedal goes almost to the floor, and her brake light comes on.
I check and there's a brake fluid leak in the area of where he was working. I surmise that he had to pull the brake caliper to get at a bolt and let it hang by the brake hose, and split it. So now it's 6:30 his shop is closed, my daughter needs her car in the morning, and me mine.
I call around to three different parts stores, none of them have the brake hose in stock, but can get it sometime the next day. OK, so I get under the car with some paper towels, and a flashlight, and discover that the brake line hose was dry, but it appeared that it was dripping form the connection to the caliper. With a 12mm wrench, it took the slightest bit of tightening, but that fixed the leak. It's great to have tools on hand.
I bought a new jar of DOT 3 hydraulic fluid and topped it off.
So now the car is prepped for a road trip.
Considering that Murphy's Law was fully in play, I'm hoping that he doesn't come back for another couple of weeks.
Just as an aside, I couldn't have done this job without a flashlight.
IMA SOL MAN
Flashlight Enthusiast
I said it once, I'll say it again, I hate working on automobiles! I will now gladly pay a mechanic for auto repair and major maintenance, because I've done my fill of auto repair and maintenance. Poppy, I don't blame you for taking that car to a shop, I would have from the get go--no Rock Auto Parts order. But, I understand trying to save money, and having to do as much as you can on your own. My greasy fingerprints are on several Chilton manuals.
