White Wall Hunters, Seoul and Cree LEDs

[dat2zip]

First off, I'm pissed and there's nothing that can be done about it...

That said let me state that it's pretty apparent that there are many people now who apply their own expectations towards products bought here on CPF especially towards custom made lights.

To all those white wall hunters. Get real. The fact is that the Shoppe catered to the tint bin control and now that Luxeons are not worth anything the Shoppe and probably many others are left with reels of unused LEDs. Personally, I have several thousand(s) of $$$ of Luxeons that I have no idea what to do with.

I will not play this game with Seoul or Cree or any other LED from now on. It's unrealistic for many reasons.

With Cree a reel is $1,000 pieces. That means to stock just three tints if you could get them would mean 1 reel of say W0 tint, one reel of say X0 tint and one reel of say V0 tint. I've talked to our representative and we would have to pay a premium for such lots. That said, let's hypothetically say they are $10.00 just for this example (they aren't but, I don't want to disclose pricing). Simple math. $10.00 * 1000 * 3 reels is $30,000.00. That's assuming you can actually specify tint like that which you can't. You can't even buy them that way. At best you can buy a range of three tints which means a reel that you paid premium for is still several tint bin codes. That's assuming of course that these are available in the higher flux bin codes. Since it seems that if we got P2 good tint that many of you would turn your nose up and go away since it's not P4 or better.

Let's now toss in Seoul. Again we'd pay premium for flux, premium for tint and if we bought reels of three or four different tint that would be another how many thousands of $$$$ to inventory this stock.

Now assume we have this inventory and we make, sell products with each different bin code. That means we then multiply our SKUs by the number of tints or flux. Just for one NG750 light engine we'd could offer a Cree NG750 W0 bin, NG750 V0 bin, NG750 X0 bin, Seoul NG 750 Wo, Seoul NG750 X0, Seoul V0 NG750 X0 bin. Then of course we have DB light engines and GD light engines and let's not forget the completed flashlights, sandwiches and other products.

To make things even worse I am not listing the bin codes of the Cree/Seoul LEDs. Why? The LEDs I have and are testing are showing that both Cree and Seoul phosphor control is not that good. That means I can have a reel of X bin Cree/Seoul and out of that reel I see warm tint, white, and bluish white tint. What's the point? They are all over the map. How many of you will be disappointed if I state the actual tint code as marked from the manufacturer on the reel and then what you get falls somewhere else on the tint code range.

So, what should I do? Hold the higher standard of ??? and reject the whole lot because the tint quality control doesn't meet our CPFISO_STANDARD_91401235 "Quality Tint Control Binning process".

That's already one of things that makes our site look so cluttered. We have zillions of product variations and we list all the Luxeon LEDs with bin codes making each one a seperate product line item.

I'm sorry... I'm not going down that road again with Cree and Seoul. I don't care if this thread gets me kicked off the forum. I'm going to state it here and now. Not doing it. THe cost of this does not make any business sense at all. Pay premium to stock different bins codes only puts mucho $$$ into inventory that may or may not sell. That risk is in my opinion not worth the investment. Considering that tomorrow it may be Nichia or Phillips may be hot button of the day. Who knows. This market is so volatile that it really is getting unpredicable almost daily.

On a side note some of you seem to forget that you directly support the research and development of new products when you buy from the shoppe. All money on shoppe goes towards cost of living and R&D of which some 80% of sales proceeds ends up in R&D. I put no holds barred on research and development. It takes a lot of money to generate new products. It may not be 80%, but, it's a lot of money of which most people never see nor can appreciate.

So, sure, be my guest. Poo Poo the random tint LEDs on the shoppe and take your business to someone whos profits get stuffed into their pocket. Just ask yourself when you buy that cheaper lower cost LED from offshore or whereever "Does this person give back to CPF or does he/she just stuff the $$$ into their pocket?" In reality, the shoppe should raise the price some 20% more than the competition for straight items like LEDs so that that 20% funds getting new reflectors, new converter boards, new light engine modules etc...

Vote with your wallet and when I no longer can sustain the shoppe profitably will be when I leave or shut the shoppe down.

As it stands right now there are many marginal aspects to continue R&D towards products sold on CPF anyway. To me the writing is already on the wall. It's just a matter of time and I'm sure this thread will drive more of you away even faster.

I'm sure this thread will start a flaming war and many of you will post defending your position. I have no issues with that. Those are your opinions, expressions and views. They are what they are.

I'm just stating that some of them may be unrealistic from the shoppe and or modders perspective.

-Wayne

 

[Nitroz]

I too noticed that the tint on the Cree LEDs change quite a bit from LED to LED even if they are all the same code. I hope that people will understand that this is not the fault of yours and continue to support the shoppe.


If the shoppe closes it's door that will be one less place to buy custom parts for this great hobby. I hope things work out for you Dat2zip.

 

[Kiessling]

Once you free yourself form the dictatorship of Mr. Tint ... life is better. Believe me, I did it.


This post is just another indicator of a change going on at CPF that I personally do not appreciate. At all. CPF will be different, it is no longer the cozy little enthusiast's forum of the past. The enthusiasts like dat2zip are slowly driven out and replaced by mass marketing and commerce.
When the Shoppe closes its doors, I see it as another nail in the coffin of my own presence. And I know I am not alone. Unfrotunately.

Sorry for the rant.

bernie

 

[moeman]

I for one do not have a problem with where you stand.
how can "we" expect you to make up for the shortcomings of the manufacturer?

when i need parts, i buy them from cpf and cpf vendors.

i dont want to see the shoppe close. it is a great resource.
my 2 cents
chris

 

[DFiorentino]

I can't add much to what has already been said except that I am another one that understands. On my own small personal level, I have hundreds of Luxeons. I'll find a use for them in some fashion, most likely home lighting where I will actually be more prone to use these LEDs on white walls. I for one wouldn't know what to do if the Shoppe closed up. I guess I'd have to go back to tinking on my cars and let flashlights take a back burner. That's how much I need the Shoppe.

-DF

 

[UncleFester]

Wayne
Your post is well founded. People get fanatical about tint and even brightness code when in reality it makes little difference. Yes, you can see a difference when comparing beams on those elusive white walls. But if you were going to USE your light to actually do something, things like tint don't make as much difference IMHO.

Very few people have any clue what it takes to make a business run (myself included, but I've worked for small companies and seen the struggle). Maybe a post like this will help bring some issues to light.

I really want you to stay in business. I know I only buy a few parts once in a while but you are there and often are the only place to get them. I usually look to you first for stuff.

I doubt very seriously that you'll get a flame war here.

 

[McGizmo]

IMHO, survival in these volitile times on CPF and with ever changing technologies, flavors of the month and expectations requires a pretty sharp IQ for one on the supply side; optional for one on the demand side. Depending on the demand, the IQ maybe an intelligence quotient or it may be "I Quit". CPF is demand driven and its course will follow where the demand takes it. Depending on the course, there may be loss of certain alternatives and options and of course others may come into being. :shrug: Many like to analize the market, pricing structures and other aspects from a demand point of reference. Much of this analysis is blind to the supply point of reference. :shrug:

In general, the commercial supply will attempt to identify the 20% of product which will satisfy the 80% of demand. On CPF thare are those remaining 20% who have interest in the 80% not available through normal supply channels. Access, if any, to that 80% is not trivial nor does it come without a premium in cost. One might expect CPF to acknowledge a "Flashlight of the Year" in accord with a Pareto principle but availablilty of alternatives beyond are not to be taken for granted, IMHO. In may cases, the only way to get a particular solution one seeks is to simply DIY. DIY requires access to required components. If this access means buying a reel of 1000 so that one can get one, it probably won't happen.

Demand can set the requirements but it can not force compliance or solutions from the supply side, based on these requirements. Viable solutions result when supply and demand meet at a point of compromise acceptable and reasonable, to both sides. In most cases, a solution does not exist. We rarely consider this because non existent solutions are simply that, non existent. Consider as an example the second, fun automobile in our garage that doesn't exist. The Ferrari that we don't take out on the weekend for a joy ride. It's not that a majority of us wouldn't like to have the Ferrari in our garage or a garage large enough to host it in addition to what we presently have.

 

[jch79]

When the Shoppe closes its doors, I see it as another nail in the coffin of my own presence.

McBK - both depressing thoughts.
It's guys like you, Wayne, and Don, and places like the SS that keep weirdos like me coming back!
:candle: john

 

[CM]

This post is just another indicator of a change going on at CPF that I personally do not appreciate. At all. CPF will be different, it is no longer the cozy little enthusiast's forum of the past. The enthusiasts like dat2zip are slowly driven out and replaced by mass marketing and commerce.
When the Shoppe closes its doors, I see it as another nail in the coffin of my own presence. And I know I am not alone. Unfrotunately....

bernie

I share the same sentiment as you. Not much more for me to add here....

 

[Anglepoise]

You and Don have been very fair and up front with the information that you have given to your customers since the Cree XR-E and S-P4 were announced.

And as customers we can decide how and what we purchase.

From a customers point of view ( not yours...sadly I understand ) I am delighted that you have inventory of Lux III's. They are just as good as they were back in September and while not as efficient, I will continue to use them for my personal use. Not just for the tint, but also the consistent quality of binning Vf, that is important to me. I do not like the lottery, but those who do, and play, must be prepared for the times they loose.

All the best to you both ......

 

[easilyled]

I think that everyone does/should understand where you're coming from.

Regarding tint, maybe what you could do is separate out the tints but
sell the whiter ones for twice the normal price. This would mean that
only the "fanatical analists" would be prepared to fork out for them and
the majority would still be happy with the slightly warm or slightly cool tints.

Other than that, non-disclosure is obviously perfectly fair too for the reasons
that you've explained.

If you left, your loss would be very acutely felt by all of us. It is a privilege
to have easy access to cutting edge new technology, and we should also
realise that it takes time for new technology to reach a plateau in
standard and uniformity.

I can see why excess bickering about tints is annoying when the Seoul and
Cree are so exciting in their much higher output.

After all the sudden jump in lumens is like going from a T-bin luxeon to
an X-bin luxeon with the same run-time per unit current as the T-bin luxeon.

A few months ago we would have all killed for this. Now we are so blase,
that we are worrying about slight irregularities in tints/beam patterns that
will no doubt improve very quickly anyway.

 

[cmacclel]

So what happened to lead to this post?

I understand your fustration on stocking multiple bins but if it where me I would just purchase the middle(whitest) color bin and be done with it.

You talk about going out of business? I thought the shipping delays where do to the fact that the shoppe was overwelmed with orders?

I went to the Cree website and found my local Cree XR-E distibutor which is in Georgia. They told me all the bins they had available includuding both power and color ratings. The price was under $7 each for below 1000 pieces and at 1000 pieces it dropped to $4. Is this not the way your distributor works? You make it sound like the bins you get are a crapshoot.

Mac

 

[RCatR]

Unless the beam is so tinted that it is literally not white, I don't give a damn and don't see why others do.

If you need a light that emits perfect white light for analyzing colors you should just stick with an incan.

Long live the Shoppe!

 

[AndyTiedye]

When I clicked on "LEDS" in the Shoppe, it said there weren't any.
Then I saw it had subcategories on the side, which had not been visible before.
If I had missed that, as I did the first time I visited your website,
I would have assumed you did not have any LEDs for sale.
A message that says "There are currently no products in this range." tends to make one give up and go elsewhere.

Your website should have links to subcategories on each page that has them.
Many of your pages already do, but those in the LED section do not.

It is easy to miss the appearance of a new subcategory in the navigation bar.

When you fix this, we'll spend even more money at the Sandwich Shoppe. oo:

 

[EngrPaul]

Wayne,

I've installed all 15 U-Bin Seoul P4's, and the color is very satisfactory.

Thank you for carrying these and releasing them to the store so quickly, and at a fair price.

Please continue to operate your Shoppe the way the greater majority of people get the best benefit.

Bless your efforts to enlighten us all!

 

[bombelman]

For this thread, you gotta love this avatar

Great effort in gathering all this info guys !!

 

[cy]

shoppe is an integral part of cpf. supplying all those zillions of little parts that there's virtually no other source for.

Wayne's only stating what's been going on in the background. without R&D none of the super cool developments will happen.

I've always try to support the shoppe!

hate to say this... but I too have been thinking of leaving cpf.

 

[CodeOfLight]

Create a 3 Cree flashlight and mix three different tints in the head. Offer it up for sale. Or have Wayne at Electrolumens create it and you will sell him Crees in sets of three, with a guaranteed mix of tints in the three.

 

[CM]

Create a 3 Cree flashlight and mix three different tints in the head. Offer it up for sale. Or have Wayne at Electrolumens create it and you will sell him Crees in sets of three, with a guaranteed mix of tints in the three.

I don't see how this is a solution to any problem, let alone be relevant to the topic at hand :shrug:

 

[easilyled]

I don't see how this is a solution to any problem, let alone be relevant to the topic at hand :shrug:

Funny, I thought exactly the same thing!