Why not more AA-powered Lux lights?

[jsr]

I was wondering this...
I can see how the 123A flashlight interests got started...2cell (and more) 123A ultrabright xenon lights made for military and LE use -> 2cell 123A LED for same purpose -> 2cell and 1cell 123A LED lights for civilian/multi-purpose use cuz people like the idea of getting trickle-down military technolomolomogy -> 1cell (and 2cell) 123A LED lights gain in popularity for their inherent performance and size advantages.
The Li 123A batteries were initially used for the xenon lights to supply the amount of power needed to produce that amount of light in a small package. The same is true for very high power, true "tactical" LED lights.
However, since most (almost all) 1cell (and many 2cell) LED lights only produce in the range of 20-40lumens, they don't need Li 123A cells. Fenix seems to be the first to realize this and come out with an equivalent quality AA light (L1/L1P) that produces similar output, has similar runtimes, and is similar length (and skinnier) to 123A lights with a more common battery which is the reason it's gotten so popular (almost seems like everyone has one...um, cept me). AA batteries also have higher mAh ratings than 123A batteries. So considering all this, why aren't there more AA-powered Lux lights? Why haven't other companies/mfrs gone this route? Why has it taken so long for mfrs to realize they could achieve the same level of performance with a better form factor with a more common, lower priced power source?
I know there are the super long Lux lights running multiple AAs and the 3x AAA lights that use a cartridge, but those don't really compete with the 1x 123A Lux lights due to form factor. The 1x123A Lux lights are popular for their size and performance combination. This can be achieved in a 1x AA light. (and I know of the Triton P1 from Waion, but that and the Fenix and that's it).
Just wondering...

Thanks.
J.

 

[nerdgineer]

Just guessing (and this is no doubt the idiot's version), probably a business decision.

Someone figured out the opportunity to make such a product (TNC) and invested to build the first product, establish a price point for a market it owned, and sold a certain amount.

Second company in line (Fenix?) saw that there was a market and that they (with their larger factory and economies of scale) could move in and take a share at a lower price point. Now there are about 2 or 3 more companies who have decided it was worthwhile to invest the R&D, manufacturing, etc. to develop a product and get a piece of the 1AA Lux market. These about to come out (dealt by Emilion, Waion, et al).

Next company in line has to decide if this niche of the market still has room to grow and whether they (with their product legacies and economies of scale) can position themselves in it. If so, more lights.

As the technology supporting 1AA Luxes should get cheaper, I would expect more expansion at the lower end of the market when players like Maglite or Dorcy decide that they can offer something which a lot of new people will buy.

 

[cratz2]

Well, I think there may be a tendency to combine multiples of newer technologies... CR123s are relatively new and Luxes are relatively new... You also have to realize that other than the one or two man shops, many flashlight companies are probably headed up by either folks that have no direct interest in flashlights or by folks that have no idea what flashlight buyers really want so they are immediately crippled by that.

I think that, say 2 to 3 years ago, it was easier to design a small LED light around a 123 cell than an AA cell so that is where the effort was put initially. I mean, I remember 2 or 2.5 years ago, there were hoards of folks calling for a single AA Luxeon light. Fenix was the first to deliver at a low price and, at least on CPF, they have been wildly successful. I'm sure if we could look 2 years into the future, most companies will have a single cell AA/AAA light with Lux emitter.

 

[jsr]

A 1x AA light doesn't require any more technology than a 1x 123A light. The boost circuit has to boost more, but that can be compensated via larger passives (inductors, etc.). The design in the circuits are identical tho. I was just wondering why it took so long for companies to tap into this market which seems to have more room for growth than the 1x 123A market. Like someone mentioned in another thread I read, most people don't want a 123A light as the batteries are too pricey locally and they don't want to have to order them online. Considering no change in technology was required, I was surprised the 1x AA Lux lights didn't come sooner. Just a curiosity of mine...I'm glad more offerings are now available or are coming. I'm waiting for Waion to release that Triton P1. What 1x AA Lux light is Emilion offering? Are there any others aside from these?
Thanks.
J.

 

[cheapo]

Seems like everyone is using AAs now

-David

 

[Blindasabat]

Using myself as a case study, I just a couple of months ago acknowledged my craving for lights as I realized I had about fifteen flashlights and found Flashlightreviews.com and CPF, and they opened a whole new world of bright, high quality LED lights. The fenix L1P and the 2xCR123 Big Q3 were the first lights I bought. The Big Q3 was my first CR123 light, and I bought into the CR123 that I never had before because of the higher voltage that seemed to work hand in hand with the 3W luxeon LED. It was also "high tech" seeming (the 2-stage switch helped that perception) and two 123's made a good sized (not too long), bright flashlight with decent run time. 2xAA lights are longer. I saw the attraction of CR123 enough to buy into that added complexity and support system (another type of battery I need to stock and take care of) because of the perceived benefit of the Big Q3. There are still few 1AA and even 2AA lights that give what high voltage can more easily get: Simple and Bright.
So I think it was the fact that LED lights started with non-luxeon LEDs and possibly that they were easy to make work with 2xCR123 six volts via just a resistor rather than 3V from 2xAA. I never did and still don't like the 3xAAA solution. And from there it is all trying to take care of what they thought was customer perception. Perception of perception I guess. Now the technology is openly out there to change that, so I think it will as small luxeon lights are made common for Target shoppers.

 

[Spectrum]

"The Li 123A batteries were initially used for the xenon lights to supply the amount of power needed to produce that amount of light in a small package. The same is true for very high power, true "tactical" LED lights....Why haven't other companies/mfrs gone this route?"

Agreed. This question also baffles me. I realize there are applications where there are legitimate needs for CR123 lights - but surely those are mainly military, swat team, etc., and not for walking the dog. I will never, ever own a light that costs $13 for a set of batteries (retail) that only last 90 minutes. And it is curious that the manufacturers have missed the mark in both directions, going with AAA and C-D cells, but leaving out the most economical and readily available form factor - the AA. As much as I like the Sam's Elements, I always wonder why they didn't make them 2-AA instead of 3-AAA. There would be twice as much current available.

We give manufacturers too much credit. I saw a really great documentary about changing technologies, and how industry fails to adapt to new markets. It starts with the advent of steam engines for ships, at a time when all of the maritime shipping companies of course used sailing ships. Every one of the established companies using wind power went out of business -- not a single one made the transition to steam power. The same analogy went on with every technical advance, on up to computer hard drives and microchips. The makers of 8 inch hard drives all went out of business as the 5 inch and smaller drives came into play. The AA is available everywhere, and the NIMHs are well proven by the digicam people. So why are there not more AA LED lights - I agree.

 

[Blindasabat]

"

We give manufacturers too much credit.

Absolutely agree. Sometimes a companies adapt to the customer, but more often (especially in the past) change in the marketplace kills the established companies. Today, "customer focus" is a common mantra, though not always well applied, sometimes it is. Technology is changing faster and faster today than it was in centuries, decades, and even in years past, so almost any company needs to innovate or die.
Surefire started with only Incans, but now makes some decent LED's. In contrast, until just last month, Maglite was headed toward the void and possibly has come out with LED's just in time to prevent a sales drop-off.

But where we also give manufacturers too much credit is in the nuance of a market. It seems like it always takes one company, like Fenix in this case to recognize a gap in the market and take advantage of it. The other companies then follow, like the automakers did with Minivans following Chrysler's first van.

 

[h_nu]

Sometimes manufacturers would love to develop new products and try to introduce them to their markets but the drive to low price hobbles them.

In mature markets there is pressure to compete with other producers by price. This lowers margins to the point that it is difficult to come up with the profits needed to invest in new capital equipment.

This is probably not the reason there aren't more AA lights but it is probably not as simple as manufacturers not being alert to the possibilities.

 

[MillerMods]

I think it took single AA flashlights a little while to hit the market because off the shelf efficent low voltage step-up circuits weren't an easily found IC. In fact, true current regulated LED driver IC's that can operate at 1.2 volts and drive 350mA into a lux is a fairly recent design. It's even more difficult to pick out a driver that will drive 500-600mA into a lux from 1.15 volts such as what the circuit I'm using can do. The down side to the driver that I'm using in my Fenix L1P mod to drive 1.7 watts into the lux from a NIMH cell, is that you won't get near as good of performance with the inferior alkaline cell. So their are limitations for higher power applications too.