Zebralight C3 4x18650, 9000 lumens!

emarkd

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Yup, you've convinced me. Given what we know, the emitters must be on the short side.

Battery hatch on the long side? I worry that if it were on the short side (i.e. opposite to the emitters) then in rolling the cells in sideways there would be no way to assure good connections on each end. Springs would get bent out of shape; pogo pins might not retract. Too many possibilities for unintentional shorting, as well. I think the cell-insertion has to work as normal, i.e. pushing them in lengthwise from a hatch on the long dimension.

Wow. I kinda hope we are totally wrong and they have something radically different in mind.
Yup, I'm with you. Based on the information we have I can't see it being anything else. But I'm not sure what to think of it. Zebra does good stuff so I tend to trust them, but a part of me hopes we're completely off base here, maybe even that someone at Zebra is messing with us with the spreadsheet. I've got this image in my head of the Zebralight crew sitting around drinking a beer and laughing their asses off at us right now. And I'd be perfectly fine with that.

'Sup guys! Give us a hint!
 

moozooh

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Battery hatch on the long side? I worry that if it were on the short side (i.e. opposite to the emitters) then in rolling the cells in sideways there would be no way to assure good connections on each end.
If the dimensions are interpreted correctly, then you should defer to the quote from a ZL employee who said the batteries will be built-in. In which case there will be no hatch. Alternatively, the batteries could be loaded from the side (have fun making that hatch waterproof), but I don't really see the point of making things so inconvenient when a soda pop form factor still works pretty well. I'm about 99% positive that if the dimensions are as stated, batteries will also be built-in as stated.
 

emarkd

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If the dimensions are interpreted correctly, then you should defer to the quote from a ZL employee who said the batteries will be built-in. In which case there will be no hatch. Alternatively, the batteries could be loaded from the side (have fun making that hatch waterproof), but I don't really see the point of making things so inconvenient when a soda pop form factor still works pretty well. I'm about 99% positive that if the dimensions are as stated, batteries will also be built-in as stated.

Crap, I honestly had forgotten all about that because I refuse to believe it. I really don't want this light to have some built-in, non-serviceable battery setup.
 

lampeDépêche

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If the dimensions are interpreted correctly, then you should defer to the quote from a ZL employee who said the batteries will be built-in. In which case there will be no hatch.

Oh, I'm happy to defer to actual info from employees. I just didn't know about it before, that's all. (Or maybe I read it earlier in the thread and forgot about it.)

Okay: built-in batteries, no hatch....Hmmm. I'm not loving this. I really like being able to swap cells in and out.

On the other hand, it may make the light more attractive to the non-CPF market, and if ZL wants to sell a lot of lights then they have my blessing.

One advantage to the built-in battery pack is that ZL does not have to listen to us yammering on about protected vs. non-protected cells. And more seriously, this prevents amateurs from getting into trouble by throwing in 4 cells with different chemistries, different capacities, different amp-ratings, etc.. If you want to consumer-proof your product, then this is one way of doing it.

Well, the more I hear about this light, the more I am eager to see the finished product!
 

moozooh

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On the other hand, it may make the light more attractive to the non-CPF market, and if ZL wants to sell a lot of lights then they have my blessing.

One advantage to the built-in battery pack is that ZL does not have to listen to us yammering on about protected vs. non-protected cells. And more seriously, this prevents amateurs from getting into trouble by throwing in 4 cells with different chemistries, different capacities, different amp-ratings, etc.. If you want to consumer-proof your product, then this is one way of doing it.
^ This. S6330 successfully avoided potential disasters because it had a separate power driver for each LED/cell combination, which made perfect sense in a 3 LED + 3 cell configuration. The same wouldn't hold for any asymmetric configuration. But it will still likely be possible to disassemble the light without incurring irreversible damage with the right tools, because otherwise there would be no way to put the cells inside in the first place. Which means you should be able to return the light to ZL for paid maintenance if/when the battery fails.

Note that with a ~50 watt-hour battery pack it's extremely unlikely you will exhaust all the 300 cycles the cells are rated for in less than 6 years unless you choose to do so purposefully—and it's not like it'd just turn into a pumpkin immediately afterwards. So the pressing need for battery replacement is, frankly, rather overstated—at least provided C3 will use fresh state-of-the-art cells out of the box, which I'm sure it will. For instance, my first SC600 bought 4.5 years ago barely sees any use because 2.5 years ago SC600w L2 happened, and the old light became functionally obsolete, hence demoted from regular usage. Today's flashlights make early 2011's ones (that's pre-XM-L!) look like absolute garbage. If early 2023's are to keep up with the progress curve, it's likely you won't even consider using your first-gen C3 by the time its battery dies.
 

emarkd

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To argue that proprietary sealed batteries are somehow a desired feature doesn't make sense to me. Sure "muggles" would probably be better off with that, but Zebralight has traditionally targeted the enthusiast market. Nobody would tell Ferrari to build weaker cars so that soccer moms could drive them more easily.

I just don't like being tied down with proprietary parts. I know that Zebras as a whole are some of the least user-serviceable lights on the market, so the addition of a proprietary sealed battery would not be too far out of character. But I just don't like the idea of having to rely on the manufacturer for future service/upgrades, especially at additional cost. There's no reason the driver in one of these lights shouldn't last for decades. The emitter, too. So to artificially limit the lifespan of the product for little gain makes no sense to me. And the argument that it will somehow be "obsolete" before the battery dies doesn't work for me either. This flashlight will make perfectly serviceable light for decades, even if there's better stuff on the market. I know that a lot of us here dump last year's model light as soon as something new (and hopefully marginally better) comes along, but that's not how most people approach these things, and it shouldn't be required.

Besides, the "huge leaps" in LED tech are starting to slow down, don't you think? 80+ and 90+ CRI emitters are commonplace, and I would venture that most of us can't really tell the difference between 90 CRI and 100 (although I'm sure we all want 100 CRI emitters). And we've got much better tint options now than we did half a decade ago (and the visible light spectrum isn't getting any wider). The only place I really see room for huge improvement is efficiencies, and we've already come a long way there too.

Well, there's one other place I see big room for improvement -- battery tech. But if we seal the batteries in our devices then we won't be able to take advantage of those gains.

In other words, I'd venture to say that lights bought today could have a much longer "usable" lifespan than those we bought a decade ago. Unless we unnecessarily hobble them with proprietary batteries.

But that's just my opinion, and Zebra's gonna do what Zebra's gonna do. It'll be fun to watch it all play out, no matter which direction it goes :)
 

markr6

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I'm 100% against a special battery. I want my own 18650s is so I can take them out, check voltage periodically, maybe run them down on my charger when storing, run a capacity test, etc. I don't care if the pack lasts 10 years; I like the peace of mind of replacing the cells whenever I want, knowing they're fresh and 100%
 

treejohnny

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I have silly question...can the XHP70 leds be efficiently driven by running the four 18650's in parallel? If they must be in series then I can see why Zebralight would use battery pack for safety.
 

emarkd

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I have silly question...can the XHP70 leds be efficiently driven by running the four 18650's in parallel? If they must be in series then I can see why Zebralight would use battery pack for safety.

XHP70s come in 6v or 12v flavors. Four 18650s in parallel would only be 4v. Zebra makes some of the best boost drivers on the market so its possible they could be in parallel, but I think its more likely (and probably more efficient) for the cells to go 2s2p, an 8v setup. But that's just a guess.
 

moozooh

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Zebralight has traditionally targeted the enthusiast market. Nobody would tell Ferrari to build weaker cars so that soccer moms could drive them more easily.
The enthusiast market alone can't sustain growth, which is the reason ZL has been toying with e.g. "Eco" line and such. If you want to expand, naturally you'd want to appeal to a wider audience, most of which can't so much as to fathom the fact that a flashlight can have 20+ modes or require parts you need to scour the Internet for, pray they can be shipped to your location, and also require specific chargers that aren't sold in Walmart. The battery search aspect in particular is pretty off-putting. Even here at CPF people who are supposed to be "enthusiasts" are asking questions about protected cells and manufacturers all the time. It's far from a convenient situation. The vast majority of people prefer the device manufacturer taking care of everything they don't feel entirely safe or sure about.

I just don't like being tied down with proprietary parts.
But... you aren't. There are no proprietary parts—it's the same old 18650 cells inside. You will still be able to disassemble and mod/service the light at your own risk, just like people do now with other parts of ZL lights—it's just that it will be outside the scope of ZL's customer support. This works out just fine because they won't have to spend time and effort dealing with human errors, which frees up their resources.

But I just don't like the idea of having to rely on the manufacturer for future service/upgrades, especially at additional cost.
But you already pay an additional cost for the new set of batteries and shipping; this isn't significantly different. Besides, you don't have to rely on a particular manufacturer to replace the battery after the warranty period. I sure as hell didn't send my first SC600 to ZL for modding—I asked vinhnguyen54 to do it (and that was before his mods became the big thing here! :)).

If this happens to be one's first 18650 light, which might just be the general case for the "muggles", they also skip the need to choose and buy a charger (and a fireproof bag, like some particularly wary people). This saves money and time (= more money). Obviously a win/win situation for the muggles.

There's no reason the driver in one of these lights shouldn't last for decades. The emitter, too.
Well, if you don't use it, sure. :) Tools in heavy use are subject to wear and tear, however—I've already broken the lens on one of my lights once, which could've been fatal for the emitter. And nobody guarantees the 18650s will still be in use in decades, either—which is something people here tend to take for granted. EVs and power tools are moving on to 20700/21700, laptops have all but ditched cylindrical cells entirely. Those have historically been the three major markets for the 18650; flashlights and other portable electronics (e.g. powerbanks) don't even amount to 0.1% of these by sheer demand numbers. Have you considered where you'd be getting your spares if 18650 goes the way of the dodo in a decade or less? Are you going to stockpile them in your fridge? :p

So to artificially limit the lifespan of the product for little gain makes no sense to me. And the argument that it will somehow be "obsolete" before the battery dies doesn't work for me either. This flashlight will make perfectly serviceable light for decades, even if there's better stuff on the market. [...] I know that a lot of us here dump last year's model light as soon as something new (and hopefully marginally better) comes along, but that's not how most people approach these things, and it shouldn't be required.
I was under the impression that the times when people would change the technology they used because the new one was required have long gone in general. Out of curiosity, how many electronic devices that remain operational after 10+ years do you still use regularly? I know for sure that since 2006 I've fully upgraded my PC and all of my flashlights twice, changed three mobile phones, a laptop, a DAP, a vacuum cleaner, and a TV in the living room. I didn't do it because the old ones stopped working—I did it because the accumulated quality-of-life improvement offered by new technologies at a low-enough price point was well worth the "premature" switch—so much so that not making it felt like a disservice to myself. That is the main deciding factor nowadays.

Let me try to explain why obsolescence is a more serious thing than people tend to give it credit for. Indeed, the purposes of using a flashlight or other devices haven't really changed—but the ways we use them have. Whenever a new technology enables a usage scenario that wasn't possible or convenient previously, it creates an opportunity cost, i.e. "what I would lose by not moving on to this product at this point". The most successful, groundbreaking products are those that create the largest opportunity cost—either by enabling completely new usage scenarios (e.g. the original iPhone, which changed how we use our phones) or by making several old ones significantly more convenient across the board (e.g. Tesla Model S, which is on track to outperform gasoline-based cars in every single aspect).

For instance, while nearly everyone around me was jumping on tablet PC bandwagon, I was holding out and using my PC or laptop. But when there appeared a tablet that was 1) small and light enough to be comfortably held with one hand and carried in a pocket, 2) powerful enough to chew anything I threw at it, including full-HD video encoded with heavy duty settings, 3) waterproof, so I could take it to a seashore or wash it in tap water, 4) with good enough battery to last a full day of regular activity, and 5) with good enough screen that reading or watching movies on it wasn't any less comfortable than on my TV or PC monitor, it was obvious that I would increase my quality of life massively by investing in this device despite the fact that other things I used for the same tasks were still in working order. Indeed, ever since I've done that, I've saved myself a lot of time and effort that would've otherwise been spent using devices not fit for a given task (e.g. my phone, which is too small and weak—because that's how I want my phone to be) or those too unwieldy for it (e.g. my laptop, which I can't carry around everywhere). I paid for the convenience that made certain other things partly or fully obsolete for a given task, and I ended up absolutely better off for it. Do I lament the fact that the battery in my tablet isn't serviceable? Not really—that's the price to pay for things that are more important for me in such a device. If it somehow manages to survive until its battery gives out (which I expect to happen sometime in the next two years), I'll either take it to a service center and replace the battery, or buy a better tablet which will surely become available by then. It's not a big deal either way. I can't expect manufacturers to make legacy spare parts available forever because that's just not economically viable. It's the flip side of rapid progress; you get either one or the other.

Besides, the "huge leaps" in LED tech are starting to slow down, don't you think? 80+ and 90+ CRI emitters are commonplace, and I would venture that most of us can't really tell the difference between 90 CRI and 100 (although I'm sure we all want 100 CRI emitters). And we've got much better tint options now than we did half a decade ago (and the visible light spectrum isn't getting any wider).
Admittedly, I haven't been paying very close attention, but I don't think so, no. Most of the options you're talking about only appeared on the market during the last 1.5-2 years or so. The fact that maximum brightness in mass-production lights has jumped up by ~40% to ~130% depending on the power source in this same time frame doesn't quite scream "slow down" to me, either. I would say it progresses much faster than it did in the 1.5 years of XP-G dominance (mid-2010 to late 2011) or the 1.5 years of XM-L's dominance (late 2011 to mid-2013). During these periods of time there was basically only one non-awful LED option for a high-power light, and you'd only have the incredible choice between 65 CRI CW and 75 CRI NW with something like 15–17% less output. If you wanted >80 CRI, you'd have to make do with a horribly weak and inefficient Philips or Nichia LED, or something even worse. Every choice was a painful compromise. The only functional replacement for XM-L was expected to be XM-L2, with no comparable options on the horizon, and XM-L2 itself was only 25% more powerful at most. We had to wait two years for a 20–25% increase in output at the same wattage, and that was considered a steady progress. Funny, right?

In the last 2.5–3 years, however, the choice of concurrently usable emitters jumped up to something like 4+ depending on the size, purpose, and battery you want to use, most having at least 2-3 further options in terms of color temperature and/or rendition, with 6V LEDs taking a hold of the large lights and slowly trickling down to 1x18650 lights, and AA-based lights also being able to take much better advantage of powerful single-die LEDs as well, pushing 500 lm on a single eneloop. The industry is in better shape and progressing at a higher pace than ever before, and LEDs themselves are becoming better across the board—you don't have to choose between light output and quality or max output and efficiency anymore. In fact, we've only recently arrived at the point where tint choice has become a preference rather than a necessity, since the difference in output has shrunk to 5–7% at most. The efficiency itself has increased from 180–190 lm/W it shuffled at in 2012–2013 to over 220 lm/W in 2016, and we haven't even seen what the upcoming XM-L3 will be capable of. Similarly, if ~2200 lm was just about the limit you'd get out of the most powerful single-LED production lights in 2012–2013 (using the horribly power-hungry Luminus emitters at that), we're now looking at up to 5000 lm from a single power-efficient LED—that's more than a twofold jump. The only thing I find worrying in all of that is that Cree has completely destroyed any competition it had, which is never good for consumers in long term. I mean they've even made automotive xenon arc lightbulbs technically obsolete, now they're just competing with themselves.

The main course of further improvements, as I see it, will be (and already has been, in fact) in gradual trickling of larger-light performance into smaller-light form factors. Large lights are severely limited in their usage, and can't always be there when needed. The only problem of small lights is that they aren't always enough. The latter can certainly be improved over time, the former... less so, in principle. Eventually, perhaps in 10–15 years or so, high-performance flashlights won't ever exceed the size of something like ZL S6330 or Lux-RC FB1 because they won't need to, and pocketable EDC lights will cover about 99% of real-world usage scenarios handsomely.

Well, there's one other place I see big room for improvement -- battery tech. But if we seal the batteries in our devices then we won't be able to take advantage of those gains.
Portable electronics and EVs haven't had user-serviceable batteries for years (if ever), and somehow this didn't impede the progress nor consumer interest. The main reason there haven't been any huge leaps in energy density, in my opinion, is that the dominant chemistry (lithium/cobalt-based cathodes in particular) hasn't changed in a while. But with multiple technologies under development and the big money behind automotive industries being heavily poured into accelerating the development and production, that will also change in foreseeable future. We will be able to take advantage of it either way, no need to worry. :)
 

lampeDépêche

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Thanks, Moozooh. That was a very interesting series of reflections on tech evolution. Gives me lots to think about.
 

markr6

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I checked with Zebralight on this for an ETA...nothing at the moment. I'm really anxious to see more!!
 

Tachead

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I'm 100% against a special battery. I want my own 18650s is so I can take them out, check voltage periodically, maybe run them down on my charger when storing, run a capacity test, etc. I don't care if the pack lasts 10 years; I like the peace of mind of replacing the cells whenever I want, knowing they're fresh and 100%

+1

Not to mention not having user replaceable cells means when it dies(which won't take very long on high) you have to spend hours charging it instead of just swapping out the cells. And, if you are off grid that means when its dead you basically have a paper weight. I think going with a built in non-user serviceable battery in this light would be the worst thing ZL could do. Especially when most other lights in this class have user replaceable non-proprietary cells. Any high power light that has a built in or even proprietary battery is automatically off my buy list no matter how good it is and I know many others feel this way too.
 

markr6

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It's been pretty quiet with the Zebralights for a while. I wonder how this one is progressing.
 

emarkd

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Yeah they released the new h503 with the new ui a couple of weeks ago, but nothing on this light. I just hope it's progressing still.
 

TCY

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It's been pretty quiet with the Zebralights for a while. I wonder how this one is progressing.

I actually have some good news. About two weeks I was talking to ZL staff about H53Fc's UI and asked about the C3. ZL's response was that the C3's R&D process has been completed a few months ago and is planned to be manufactured in their shiny new factory located in Texas... but the problems is they don't know when.

I decided not to share this info (but since you are wondering...) as this just sounded like a far fetched plan from ZL. R&D completed for months but have no idea when does manufacturing start? Damn. Also with brands like Acebeam, Imalent and Olight coming up with models that puts out 15,000+ lumens, and vn modded lights capable of delivering even crazier figures, the 9,000 lumens from C3 is not so impressive on paper anymore. It's nice to hear that they plan to label the light with "made in USA" but price will surely go up.

On a side note, ZL will introduce a "4th generation" model (SC600 MK4, SC64, H600 MK4) later this year with "the new UI and other improvements" but they haven't decided on which model yet. A H600Fc MK4/SC64Fc would be perfect for me.
 

eraursls1984

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I actually have some good news. About two weeks I was talking to ZL staff about H53Fc's UI and asked about the C3. ZL's response was that the C3's R&D process has been completed a few months ago and is planned to be manufactured in their shiny new factory located in Texas... but the problems is they don't know when.

I decided not to share this info (but since you are wondering...) as this just sounded like a far fetched plan from ZL. R&D completed for months but have no idea when does manufacturing start? Damn. Also with brands like Acebeam, Imalent and Olight coming up with models that puts out 15,000+ lumens, and vn modded lights capable of delivering even crazier figures, the 9,000 lumens from C3 is not so impressive on paper anymore. It's nice to hear that they plan to label the light with "made in USA" but price will surely go up.

On a side note, ZL will introduce a "4th generation" model (SC600 MK4, SC64, H600 MK4) later this year with "the new UI and other improvements" but they haven't decided on which model yet. A H600Fc MK4/SC64Fc would be perfect for me.
I expected a 3 series CR123 light first since those have been the most neglected, and some are discontinued now.

I'm waiting for the SC64c, SC600c/w HI, H600c, SC3c/SC33c, and the H33c.
 

markr6

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Thanks for the update, especially this part!! :twothumbs

On a side note, ZL will introduce a "4th generation" model (SC600 MK4, SC64, H600 MK4) later this year with "the new UI and other improvements" but they haven't decided on which model yet. A H600Fc MK4/SC64Fc would be perfect for me.
 

banana boat

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Im waiting for the 100,000 lumen model with 1.2 sec of battery life, its just a big flash lmao
 

scs

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... Also with brands like Acebeam, Imalent and Olight coming up with models that puts out 15,000+ lumens, and vn modded lights capable of delivering even crazier figures, the 9,000 lumens from C3 is not so impressive on paper anymore. It's nice to hear that they plan to label the light with "made in USA" but price will surely go up.

The impressive output of those other brands quickly takes a steep dive though. ZL is better known for their outstanding drivers, which, it appears, only Olight can come close to matching. ZL still stands alone in many aspects.
 
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