LEO'S & Security folks: How effective is pepper spray?

LEO\'S & Security folks: How effective is pepper spray?

Is pepper spray really effective?(actually a stream, based on what I've seen) This is slightly off-topic of lights, but I work at night and feel relatively secure walking home with my Asp Taclite and Mace brand 10% pepper spray. Am I kidding myself?

Brightnorm

Re: LEO\'S & Security folks: How effective is pepper spray?

The percentage ratings on the label has nothing to do with the effectiveness/strength of the pepper sray. Look for the "S.H.U." rating somewhere on the label/canister. Find one that has a rating of 1.5 (million) and upward. This relates to the actual strength of the agent.
I'm sure there are others who can explain it better than I. Also you have to consider what are you looking to defend yourself from?
If you're worried about whacked out, drug-crazed maniacs, then maybe a bazooka would be better. Or, if like myself you worry about a mugging or a random act of street violence then the spray is not a bad choice, the element of surprise will be most helpful too. Don't let them know you got it, and when you have to, blast it in their face. After which you should rely on my tried and true ultimate defence tactic, RUN LIKE A HELL!!

Re: LEO\'S & Security folks: How effective is pepper spray?

Sounds good.

BN

Re: LEO\'S & Security folks: How effective is pepper spray?

I looked for the S.H.U. rating and could not find it. This is "Pepperguard" manufactured by the Mace corporation.

BN

Re: LEO\'S & Security folks: How effective is pepper spray?

Actually 2 million Scoville Heat Units or SHI is even better than 1.5 million. The SHU is the measure of "hotness" if you will. The percentage has more to do with how long it will affect the person. Basically pay no attention to it. The Mace brand is pretty good at 2 million SHU. There are actually 4 types of delivery systems. Stream, fog, cone shaped spray, and foam. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages.
Streams have a bit more distance, especially in the smaller containers, can be aimed at just one person, are the most wind resistant, and are good indoors and out. However they only affect the eyes of the target, there is very little inhalation. They also have to be aimed more than the others. If you need to use it, keep it close and spray it in an "S" shaped pattern across the person's face and shoulders. This will help make sure that you get it into his eyes.
Fog is the best patter from large containers and outside. The larger container (2 oz.) ensures it has enough propellant to carry it at least 5 or 6 feet (2 meters or so). It is the easiest to hit the person in the face, and it will be inhaled, adding to it's effectiveness. However it is easily blown by the wind, and is not too good to use indoors.
A cone shaped spray is a compromise between the above two patterns. The larger droplets aren't as easily blow about by the wind, yet they can still be inhaled by the subject. It is less likely to be spread by a building's HVAC system. This is a pretty good compromise.
Foam is best for indoor use. It has the least chance of cross contamination. You can spray a person in a room, and not have to clear out everyone there. Unfortunately the foam has to get into the person's eyes.

I know that this has been long., but I want you to have an idea of what is out there so you can make up your mind based on your particular circumstances. Many people that sell it have no idea what they are talking about, and only wnat to make a sale.

Mace, Fox, ASP, Guardian, Punch, are all good quality brands, with a good reputation for quality. Keep away from the stuff you'll find in the grocery or auto parts sotres (unless they are a name brand). Replace it if you ever use it, and when it gets close to it's expiration date. Use the old cannister for practice.

Yes, it is effective, usually. Like anything else it's not 100%. Spray, move spray again if needed, and run like h3ll! Even if it's not totally effective it might make him not want to chase after you.

Re: LEO\'S & Security folks: How effective is pepper spray?

Thank you, Unicorn, for being so thorough and detailed. This is very helpful.

How did you find the SHU values of those brands?

Best regards,
Brightnorm

Re: LEO\'S & Security folks: How effective is pepper spray?

If you plan on using "Man in a Can" in a confrontation, I advise you to get the hell out of there as soon as possible. Pepper spray may make the assailant more aggressive. Some may even grow a tolerance for this stuff. Trust me, I know several PT instructors and classmates in the academy who actually get off on pepper spray. To give you an idea on what it feels like, if you haven't experimented already, it's like having your face melt for an hour or pressing two HOT irons on your face for a long period of time and when it dries up it reactivates the moment you step in the shower(Ahh, the memories...)

Re: LEO\'S & Security folks: How effective is pepper spray?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brightnorm:
Thank you, Unicorn, for being so thorough and detailed. This is very helpful.

How did you find the SHU values of those brands?

Best regards,
Brightnorm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The rating should be printed on the unit or it's label. I would be wary if it's not on there.

Re: LEO\'S & Security folks: How effective is pepper spray?

OC spray works on some people wonderfully, on others barely at all. I would consider it like having a good left jab (or maybe a good straight right). You might get lucky and knock someone down with it, but more likely it will open up an opportunity for you to do something else ... like run, or follow up with a strike, etc. I use Fox Labs OC, at 5 million SHU. From the threads I've been reading, guys in law enforcement seem to think this stuff is a lot more effective than its 2 million SHU cousins. I'd prefer a cone spray but the Fox Labs units are streams.

The taclite isn't going to stop anyone, but it's still useful. It can temporarily blind someone, allow you to identify threats, etc. Again, good left jab. Just don't depend on it knocking someone down or out.

In regards to your last question, I think you're better prepared than the vast majority of people, and perhaps the best thing the light and OC spray could do is keep you aware of your surroundings. But if you think those things will keep you safe, without proper awareness and fighting skills, and a more serious defensive weapon, then I do think you're kidding yourself.

Joe

Re: LEO\'S & Security folks: How effective is pepper spray?

Joe T. I admit I felt slightly let down after reading your excellent and knowledgeable response, because I'm wondering what to do now. I'm in my mid-sixty's, not in the greatest health, and I live in a city with the strictest gun laws in the country. I mean STRICT!

My self-defense options seem to be very limited; even my ability to "run like hell" is impossible due to back injuries. I thought about stun guns, but they require close contact and I could imagine zapping myself.

Some people have suggested that OC spray can be a liability because it may merely enrage some people. Your point about increased awareness is well taken, and maybe that should be my main focus.

I'd be grateful for any other ideas you might have for me.

Thanks again, and thanks to all who responded

Best regards,
Brightnorm

Re: LEO\'S & Security folks: How effective is pepper spray?

moving to chit-chat

Re: LEO\'S & Security folks: How effective is pepper spray?

Koga,

Thanks very much for your response and those links. Based on your experience, is a good, high SHU OC spray effective in the majority of cases? Unfortunately, it may have to be my primary defense tool.

Best regards,
Brightnorm

Re: LEO\'S & Security folks: How effective is pepper spray?

At this point, nothing has higher SHU than Fox, from what I know. I've seen several LEOs say they gave up on OC spray after experiences with lesser sprays, but Fox makes it interesting again.

Note that there have been tests where civilians were told to try to accomplish a specific task, then sprayed with OC. When given a task, even civilians almost always complete the task, even after being sprayed with OC. Many people who have been sprayed with OC were just shot in the face, and then relate how they were unable to "do anything". But being goal-focused makes all the difference. If the same guy has a guy, he can take the OC and keep going. This is important implications for self-defense use An angry criminal can often be goal-focused. That means he might be able to grab you and hurt you before he succumbs to the OC, unless you take further defensive steps.

Another important factor is that most of our feedback is from LEOs. In the LEO case, a criminal who has been sprayed with OC and is in pain, knows that if he continues, he could get shot. And furthermore, often combativeness with LEOs is based on pride, just a way to get respect from the cops. He often isn't goal-focused on hurting the cops, just being a pain the *** -- again, in that case, he might as well just give in once OCed, having already made his point.

For civilians, I believe all of this means that we can't expect to see the same results as LEOs.. That doesn't mean most people won't drop like a rock from OC. It just means that some won't, and for those, we need a backup plan. Running is good, if you've got the option. Just moving "off line" after spraying might be enough to keep an OC-blinded bad guy from just running straight into you. Having a more serious self-defense implement, like a knife, for any follow-up aggression isn't a bad idea. Unfortunately, it sounds like that's not an option for brightnorm.

Joe

Re: LEO\'S & Security folks: How effective is pepper spray?

Unfortunately, it sounds like that's not an option for brightnorm.

I believe that you are correct. Well, partially. It is an option because it will buy time. One must follow-up however with another option. Unfortunately it might mean escalation of force; which brings another dimension most civilians just are not ultimately prepared for.

Re: LEO\'S & Security folks: How effective is pepper spray?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brightnorm:
I'm in my mid-sixty's, not in the greatest health, and I live in a city with the strictest gun laws in the country. I mean STRICT!

My self-defense options seem to be very limited; even my ability to "run like hell" is impossible due to back injuries.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brightnorm:
I'd be grateful for any other ideas you might have for me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, given your situation, especially the issues regarding running away and the inability (due to local laws) to use more effective defensive force, I'd me somewhat hesitant to use OC spray with the worry that it might further aggravate an attacker. In those cases normally you would use the opportunity while they are (hopefully) partially incapacitated to beat feet.

I would also think similar things about using a light as a blinding tool, although I see the blinding tool as more useful used in conjunction with a firearm.

If you decided to still use a flashlight in this way, I'd consider getting something like the SF M6 and get as much effectiveness as possible (same for the OC spray for that matter).

Well, luckily, due to the restrictive laws in your area, at least criminals do not have firearms. (Ok, ok, I know that was flamebait, but I think it's stupid that someone who is physically disadvantaged can't use the tools that compensate. Not to mention the right of people in general to defend themselves).

Ok, let's get back to trying to be constructive.

My thinking turns to concealable body armor. The main point being that they don't know you have it. Even if they decide to shoot you for your pocket change, it would seem you have a much larger chance. I understand you can get them with stab resistance as well which sounds useful.
http://www.bulletproofme.com/

In conjunction with that, I would consider having some cash on hand that I would give up as an appeasement. I wouldn't argue, just do it.

I'd also consider having a second level plan, perhaps a stun gun.

In any case, a cell phone sounds like a must. You probably want to make sure it is concealed as well so you don't lose it in the process.

Some sort of noise maker like a air horn might be of use. I'm not sure I'd count on people to come running, but at least they might feel a little conspicuos.

In all, I think this is a highly personal decision and I should point out that I'm not a LEO, or expert.

Hopefully some of the other people here can provide some additional insight.

-john

Re: LEO\'S & Security folks: How effective is pepper spray?

John, good points.
An armed, preferably legally, companion just may be the ultimate option in the legislated absence of the capability to carry a firearm. A secondary option is real estate; place as much of it between oneself and trouble.

Re: LEO\'S & Security folks: How effective is pepper spray?

Some good points, just wanted to point out that while I agree about having a backup plan, I vehemently disagree with the example of a stun gun. They are worst than useless, they are something you can fight through even if you aren't goal oriented. My own solution as far as adjuncts is Fox spray, an E2, and a folder (for legality reasons). I view the folder as indispensible, since you've already heard my opinions on the spray and the light -- the spray might be effective sometimes, but will also be ineffective sometimes.

If brightnorm can carry a knife legally and can physically use it, then that's a plan I think is better (but not perfect). But even if that's not the case, I think we can draw some conclusions from this thread. First, the obvious ones: since OC+light isn't a guaranteed fight-stopper, awareness and good safety practices are critical. Second, if some guy pulls a gun or knife on you, you previously might have been tempted to OC him; now you know you probably shouldn't OC anyone except as a last resort; instead, handing over your wallet is smarter. I still think it's worth carrying OC -- in a last-ditch situation, at least you have the option to go out fighting back in some way, and since the stuff does instantly take the fight of guys sometimes, it's still worth having.

Joe

Re: LEO\'S & Security folks: How effective is pepper spray?

I stayed specifically away from addressing the issue of having a stun gun. I don't like them. Manufacturers and vendors of these devices tend to parlay, by default and though not necessarily their intention, a false send of security. Demonstrations and advertisement of these devices promulgate a "be all" of self defense strategy vice just a part of the overall plan. In short, there can never be a single device, instrument, or strategy to prevent or curtail being a victim of crime, property or person. It takes all facets carefully executed in unison and it must be practiced consistently and frequently.

Re: LEO\'S & Security folks: How effective is pepper spray?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe Talmadge:
Some good points, just wanted to point out that while I agree about having a backup plan, I vehemently disagree with the example of a stun gun.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the feedback. I should point out that I have never used, nor own a stun gun. I was simply trying to think of some "leverage" type options.

-john

Re: LEO\'S & Security folks: How effective is pepper spray?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kogatana:
An armed, preferably legally, companion just may be the ultimate option in the legislated absence of the capability to carry a firearm.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a good point. Arranging to have a companion in higher risk situations certainly would be a positive addition.

However, it's unclear how he gets a legally armed companion while it is restricted to be armed (so to speak)?

-john