Why is 6PL 80Lm/11 Hrs but G2L is 80Lm/12 Hrs?

Just noticed on SF web site that 6P rated at 1 hour less runtime? I know the 80 lumens max is not held for the full time, but I wonder why they state different runtimes. Aren't they both using the P60L?

Yes, they both use the P60L, if they are 6PL/G2L (must have the "L" to be LED), the 6P is an incan...

The run times listed are FALSE/MISLEADING (where I come from they call this a "LIE").

The G2L gets a longer run time (over the 6P/L) due to the thermal regulation that drops down the lumen level. Chevrofreak covered this a while back. See below

chevrofreak
Flashaholic*
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Billings, Montana, USA
Posts: 3,036


Surefire P60L (6PL and G2L) runtimes


I bought a real cheap used G2 (Thanks JasonC8301!) to put the P60L module from the 6PL in so all runtimes would be done with the same sample.

Thermal regulation drops the output significantly in the Nitrolon body of the G2, and when I picked the light up a few minutes after the RCR123 runtime had finished the bezel was quite hot. The module itself must have been at a very high temperature. Makes me wonder just how long the LED will survive.
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I have a MAJOR problem with this myself (others seem to find these false ads by SF are OK).

My .02 FWIW YMMV

I don't know that I would all it a lie. The G2L is aimed at a different market segment. They specifically call out the runtime as "useable light." Many have adopted this little light for "tactical" application, and it works well for that, but that was not SFs target market.

If you look at other descriptions of tactical type lights they will call out the runtime of tactical level light and useable light thereafter.

The above graph is very helpful. I believe the previous poster answered your question in that the G2 doesn't disipate heat as well as the all alluminum 6P and the emitter drops down in thermal protection sooner in the G2, thereby consuming less energy.

In practical application though (for instance I used by G2L installing a dishwasher), the head of a light left on for any length of time is going to be moving through the air with you walking (cooling) or in contact with a surface capable of heat sinking (in my case laying on ceramic tile). The G2LED head never got anywhere near as hot as the old Xenons would get wtih a 10 minute run, and I never noticed it drop into protection mode.

Basically, I agree that it would have been nice to see the runtimes advertised as above 60 lumen/below 60 lumen, but really and truly, it's no big deal. The light provides "useful light" for the full time.

Perhaps for you 6hrs. at below 10 lms. (of a "so called" 80 lmn./12 hr. light) is "useful" for you, however for me, it is NOT. As you said, if they said that it would run for 4 1/2 hrs. of 55-60 lmns. and then 7 1/2 hrs. of declining, possibly "useful" light, I would not have a problem with it.

From the SF site:
G2® LED

Battery-powered LED. Compact (pocket sized) flashlight featuring a super-efficient, high-output, long-running LED for tactical, outdoor, and general use. A higher-output, longer-running LED version of our best-selling G2 Nitrolon®.

Max Output: 80 lumens
Runtime: 12 hours

Personally I find this FASLE and MISLEADING (and a lie), but not all do.

I don't "fall" at the SF altar and "bow down" to them as many here do (I have well over 20 SF's, my first 3 in 1995, so don't think that I'm here just to bash SF, I just want to see them "do the right thing" and be truthful), I just call a spade, a spade and a liar, a liar when I see one.

My .02 FWIW YMMV

RWT1405,
And yet it is not false/misleading to not clearly mention that the runtime chart by chevrofreak was for a P60L installed in a Nitrolon bezel G2 rather than a metal bezel G2L?

I think pretty much all Flashaholics would prefer SureFire use a more representative means of conveying the output characteristics.

I also think that the difference between the G2L and 6PL is not nearly as significant as chevrofreak's chart shows given the use of a metal bezel by the G2L.

The answer to your question is heatsinking.

The module is supposed to drop it's output to help save it's self from getting too hot. That means more runtime.

The G2L with or without the metal bezel still has a Nitrolon body that isn't too effective at dissapating heat.

So to maintain highest output for the longest time the P60L works best in a 3 cell metal host, then a 2 cell metal host, then a metal head G2L, and in last place a Nitrolon head G2L.

My vote is to ditch it on BST and get a Malkoff M60L, brighter, more runtime, and Gene makes it.

Regardless of which bezel was used none of them come close to the marketing claim of 11/12 hours. Especially not while hiding behind the 80 lumens figure which gives consumers false assumptions of 80 lumens for 11 hours...

See the problem is all they do is omit one word... 'for'
Yet they structure the marketing in the same syntax that would be used for a claim of 80 lumens for 11 hours.
And so far I haven't even seen the little * leading to the fine print somewhere fully disclosing the fact that the light only runs anywhere near 80 lumens for around 3+ hours.

Yes I consider such marketing to be a LIE. :sigh: Others may not but I call it as I see it.
This is too bad too because SF some very good points to it as well.

Technically I would not call it a lie, they specify "max output", not continuous output. But I believe many people would call it misleading.

I would also prefer a better specification, preferable a runtime graph, as it is now, it do not tell my anything about usefull runtime.

I think that in the average application, where the light is on for a few minutes at a time, much more useful life can be derived from the Li primary cells. I am assuming that some polarization - think of gas bubbles at the electrode - develop under high current discharge, as occurs in C-Zn and other primary cells. This tends to add to the internal resistance, causing more internal cell heat and more polarization. When the cells are used briefly, then rested, more of their capacity can be utilized, as the bubbles re-dissolve or dissipate. Long term/steady-state use will lessen the cell's apparent capacity. This may explain why I get such a life from my 6PLs - I don't 'leave them on', unless I need them.

I am amazed at the two 6PLs I have - I don't need loads of light for an extended time - just 'search' time - in the dark. In my use, I don't doubt that I get a lot more life from the 123s - but I also know that were I to leave one on, in my front pocket, for example, it wouldn't take long to notice the 'warmth'. That usually is coincident with the "Hey, your pocket's glowing!" remark. I know they won't put out 80L for any 11 or 12 hr - but, in my use, I'll likely get 11 hr of 'use' per set of cells, but it will be over months.

I would say that SF's advertising is on the edge of being misleading by not indicating how long they will run near full brightness. I like their products, however, even if my sampling is one 6PL and one 6P with a P60L.

Stainz

Al, thanks for your response. I always enjoy reading what you have to say, as I value your responses/insight highly.

Yes, I should have added (of course, I'm not selling a product, such as SF is, a MINOR difference I think) that chevrofreak's chart (G2L/6PL) was not with a metal bezel G2L (however, I will say that the first 5 - G2L's [yellow] that I bought do NOT have said metal bezel), the difference is I will admit my mistake (unlike SF). But still, as PhantomPhoton said, the G2L/6PL is NO where NEAR 11/12 hrs. at 80 lmns. and the metal bezel (on a G2L) actually DECREASES it's time to 50%.

I do enjoy/like SF lights and have used them for years (a lot longer and for work, not just play, unlike many) and plan on using them for many more years. I would just like to see them be truthful in their ads. I refuse to fall down and "bow" to SF when they have what I consider very misleading/false ads (and sorry, where I come from, they are a lie).

My .02 FWIW YMMV

I don't think it would take much to include a runtime/output chart on the back of the packaging, in the manual and in the product info on their website.
This would give better quality information to those who seek it.

I do not pay much attention to claims made by any flashlight manufacturer. Prefer to do searches here on CPF and learn what our people are finding out about the various lights, or do some of my own testing, runtimes, currrent draw, lux, etc. Then I have some objective information. SF posted runtime plots of the 6PL and the G2L (non aluminum bezel) in one of their 2008 catalogs (actually looked like chevrofreak's graphs), and that is good objective data.

Bill

I agree Al, an accurate chart would serve SF (and all of us) well! Such a chart would allow the customer the ability to make, at least somewhat, a more informed choice.

I think the vast majority of SF's customers out there are MORE then served by the P60L's runtime/output and think SF would gain much "goodwill" from it's customers with such an accurate chart included!

My .02 FWIW YMMV

Sort of like McDonalds posting their nutrition specs. Big Mac right next to the grilled chicken sandwich. I've been eating WHAT!? Oh well, give me another.

Except that we actually NEED what SF sells....:naughty: