Ok, Explain Hard Anodizing To me...
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Size15's
Flashaholic
There's a question just like this over at the SureFire Forum.
Jim (aka "Spokes") offers this great link:
Aluminium Surface Treatments
See also, the Specs Sheets on PK's site: www.PK-Engineering.com
Anodisation Specifications
I basically understand it as Level II allows for 'form' (pretty colours) whereas Level III allows for 'function' (really tough Hard Anodisation)
Al
Jim (aka "Spokes") offers this great link:
Aluminium Surface Treatments
See also, the Specs Sheets on PK's site: www.PK-Engineering.com
Anodisation Specifications
I basically understand it as Level II allows for 'form' (pretty colours) whereas Level III allows for 'function' (really tough Hard Anodisation)
Al
lightlover
Flashlight Enthusiast
Now explain hard anodising a bit more please !
I've looked at PK's site, and the other link for the details of anodising. Lot of info there.
And I've read people saying that they dropped their Sure-Fires, and no harm came to the finish. From my limited experience, mostly with Mag-Lites, it seems remarkable.
So where does the Mag-Lite stand in this scheme of things ? It too is hard anodised, does anyone know to what level ?
It's very black, and mirror finished, but mine seems to scratch or mark relatively easily.
From what I've seen, while the anodising itself might be tough, that is, hard, it seems brittle. Often when you look closely at marks from relatively small accidents, the aluminium itself has chipped off or micro-torn / deformed.
Re: the Gun-metal finish – is this an anodising or some other surface treatment, or is it the just the aluminium itself polished up only ? The E2 is available in Gun-metal – is anything else ?
Thanks,
Lite-lover
I've looked at PK's site, and the other link for the details of anodising. Lot of info there.
And I've read people saying that they dropped their Sure-Fires, and no harm came to the finish. From my limited experience, mostly with Mag-Lites, it seems remarkable.
So where does the Mag-Lite stand in this scheme of things ? It too is hard anodised, does anyone know to what level ?
It's very black, and mirror finished, but mine seems to scratch or mark relatively easily.
From what I've seen, while the anodising itself might be tough, that is, hard, it seems brittle. Often when you look closely at marks from relatively small accidents, the aluminium itself has chipped off or micro-torn / deformed.
Re: the Gun-metal finish – is this an anodising or some other surface treatment, or is it the just the aluminium itself polished up only ? The E2 is available in Gun-metal – is anything else ?
Thanks,
Lite-lover
Size15's
Flashaholic
Okay...
The E2 (and E1) are available in;
GM - Gun Metal which is a metallic-like Anodise (I think is Level II)
HA - Hard Anodise (Level III in "Millennium Grey")
BK - Black (I think this is atleast Level II)
The Hard Anodise is not "metallic" or shiny because it is not 'sealed'. To seal would reduce the toughness.
The Anodisation is a "layer" - a very thin layer which is only as resistant to deformation as the material below it. SureFires use a custom Aluminium Alloy - "T8 which is far tougher than T6 which is so-called "Aircraft" Aluminium.
SureFire's HA as millions of tiny ridges which help protect the coating, by giving way and dispersing the energy of any scratches. So you'll be able to mark the HA if you press hard enough with a very hard pointy object, but this is going to first mark through the ridges.
If the Aluminium beneath is deformed (and this does happen with very hard point source impacts), the Anodisation will crack, and may chip. From my experience you have to really use some force to do this - like throw the flashlight on to tarmac as if you want to smash it.
The HA is very tough, but it is brittle. That's why SureFire uses an extra tough Alloy.
Al
The E2 (and E1) are available in;
GM - Gun Metal which is a metallic-like Anodise (I think is Level II)
HA - Hard Anodise (Level III in "Millennium Grey")
BK - Black (I think this is atleast Level II)
The Hard Anodise is not "metallic" or shiny because it is not 'sealed'. To seal would reduce the toughness.
The Anodisation is a "layer" - a very thin layer which is only as resistant to deformation as the material below it. SureFires use a custom Aluminium Alloy - "T8 which is far tougher than T6 which is so-called "Aircraft" Aluminium.
SureFire's HA as millions of tiny ridges which help protect the coating, by giving way and dispersing the energy of any scratches. So you'll be able to mark the HA if you press hard enough with a very hard pointy object, but this is going to first mark through the ridges.
If the Aluminium beneath is deformed (and this does happen with very hard point source impacts), the Anodisation will crack, and may chip. From my experience you have to really use some force to do this - like throw the flashlight on to tarmac as if you want to smash it.
The HA is very tough, but it is brittle. That's why SureFire uses an extra tough Alloy.
Al
lightlover
Flashlight Enthusiast
Thanks Al, that's very clear.
Shame that the extra hard anodising won't take a colour.
What do you mean by "sealed" ? Is that what a pigment does ?
Didn't realise that the aluminium was a high specification either.
My only point of reference for this is the Mag-lite. I read that it was a 2014-T6, but does anyone know what type the anodising is ?
What are peoples experiences with the various types of Flashlight finishes ?
lite-lover
Shame that the extra hard anodising won't take a colour.
What do you mean by "sealed" ? Is that what a pigment does ?
Didn't realise that the aluminium was a high specification either.
My only point of reference for this is the Mag-lite. I read that it was a 2014-T6, but does anyone know what type the anodising is ?
What are peoples experiences with the various types of Flashlight finishes ?
lite-lover
Joe Talmadge
Flashlight Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Size15s:
The HA is very tough, but it is brittle. That's why SureFire uses an extra tough Alloy.
Al<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks!
To pick a nit, saying HA is both tough and brittle is like saying it's both hard and soft. Most of the time you used the word "tough" above, you actually meant "strong" (or "hard", since hardness and strength are directly related in these metals). Hard materials can be brittle -- that is, show a lack of toughness. For example, diamond, the hardest material, is not the toughest. In metals, the harder and stronger you get a metal, generally speaking, the less tough it will be.
Joe
The HA is very tough, but it is brittle. That's why SureFire uses an extra tough Alloy.
Al<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks!
To pick a nit, saying HA is both tough and brittle is like saying it's both hard and soft. Most of the time you used the word "tough" above, you actually meant "strong" (or "hard", since hardness and strength are directly related in these metals). Hard materials can be brittle -- that is, show a lack of toughness. For example, diamond, the hardest material, is not the toughest. In metals, the harder and stronger you get a metal, generally speaking, the less tough it will be.
Joe
Size15's
Flashaholic
Lets just say I'm having an "off" day from my Geology Degree. I know, I know...
I'm usually a stickler for terminology!
Okay, Lets see if I can get my brain in gear and remember some definitions!
The HA and the Aluminium body together are tough. In that as a single unit, is tough - It can withstand sudden shocks without fracture. However, the Combination is only as good as it's weakest link.
When the increased toughness T8 Aluminium Alloy deforms, the brittle but [very] hard Anodised Layer will deform, crack, or chip. This HA/T8 combination has far higher strength than other Aluminium / Anodisation combinations.
Have I used the right definitions and terms here?!
Al
I'm usually a stickler for terminology!
Okay, Lets see if I can get my brain in gear and remember some definitions!
The HA and the Aluminium body together are tough. In that as a single unit, is tough - It can withstand sudden shocks without fracture. However, the Combination is only as good as it's weakest link.
When the increased toughness T8 Aluminium Alloy deforms, the brittle but [very] hard Anodised Layer will deform, crack, or chip. This HA/T8 combination has far higher strength than other Aluminium / Anodisation combinations.
Have I used the right definitions and terms here?!
Al
Joe Talmadge
Flashlight Enthusiast
Heh, that looks better!
The general explanation is:
Toughness relates to chipping/cracking in response to impact. If you hit it against something and it chips or cracks, it's relatively less tough. If you do the same and it doesn't chip or crack, it's relatively more tough.
Strength is related to deformation. So if you hit it against something and it indents, it's relatively soft/weak. If it doesn't indent, it's relatively strong/hard.
Joe
The general explanation is:
Toughness relates to chipping/cracking in response to impact. If you hit it against something and it chips or cracks, it's relatively less tough. If you do the same and it doesn't chip or crack, it's relatively more tough.
Strength is related to deformation. So if you hit it against something and it indents, it's relatively soft/weak. If it doesn't indent, it's relatively strong/hard.
Joe
Wow! This is great! All theses years, I had no idea about anodizing... And I use to race BMX when I was a teenager... and even had a Race Inc. frame re-anodized (at my fathers work, Bendix)... but did not know anything more, than about the dipping part
! Wow... I guess you could Hard anodize bik frames two, if you don't mind the green color
. Cool... Thanks guys!
Doug
Doug
KC2IXE
Flashaholic*
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Size15s:
<snip>SureFires use a custom Aluminium Alloy - "T8 which is far tougher than T6 which is so-called "Aircraft" Aluminium.
<snip>
Al<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
T8 is NOT an alloy - it's a temper level of an alloy! That's why, when you see full alloy specs you see numbser like 6061-T6 ( a common "aircraft" alloy. The Alloy is 6061, and it's temper is T6 (which, off the top of my head is precipitation hardened and artifically aged)
You can find LOTS of alloys in the various tempers, for instance, you'll run across 2024-T6, 6061-T6 and 7075-T6, all of which are T6, but are VERY different alloys. The 7075 is HARD
As for anodizing, there are a few different processes, which require different chemicals in the bath. "Regular" anodizing works this way:
You build up a layer of aluminum oxide on the part by anodizing, but this is SOFT until it's sealed. It's sealed by putting the part in BOILING water - it converst the type of aluminium oxide, and makes it realatively hard. If you want a color (say black), after the first step, but before boiling the part, you dip the part in dye, and then seal the part. The dye has to be small enough to fit in the pores of the open oxide, so not all dyes work well
HARD ANODIZING is a different process, which builds (the bath is different) and it ends up gray, and it can't really be dyed, but it is MUCH more scratch resistant than regular anodizing. I know less details on exactly how it's done, but there are some really good references out on the web
<snip>SureFires use a custom Aluminium Alloy - "T8 which is far tougher than T6 which is so-called "Aircraft" Aluminium.
<snip>
Al<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
T8 is NOT an alloy - it's a temper level of an alloy! That's why, when you see full alloy specs you see numbser like 6061-T6 ( a common "aircraft" alloy. The Alloy is 6061, and it's temper is T6 (which, off the top of my head is precipitation hardened and artifically aged)
You can find LOTS of alloys in the various tempers, for instance, you'll run across 2024-T6, 6061-T6 and 7075-T6, all of which are T6, but are VERY different alloys. The 7075 is HARD
As for anodizing, there are a few different processes, which require different chemicals in the bath. "Regular" anodizing works this way:
You build up a layer of aluminum oxide on the part by anodizing, but this is SOFT until it's sealed. It's sealed by putting the part in BOILING water - it converst the type of aluminium oxide, and makes it realatively hard. If you want a color (say black), after the first step, but before boiling the part, you dip the part in dye, and then seal the part. The dye has to be small enough to fit in the pores of the open oxide, so not all dyes work well
HARD ANODIZING is a different process, which builds (the bath is different) and it ends up gray, and it can't really be dyed, but it is MUCH more scratch resistant than regular anodizing. I know less details on exactly how it's done, but there are some really good references out on the web
Size15's
Flashaholic
Wow! Thanks for explaining things. I guess I assumed too much.
Would the Anodisation you desribe be like the "Type II" - because normally, they are 'glossy' which I thought was 'sealed'
With Regards to the T8, would you know if it's any better than the T6 for making flashlights? From what I can tell, it's more precise to machine (hence SureFire make the M111 out of it.
Thanks!
Al
Would the Anodisation you desribe be like the "Type II" - because normally, they are 'glossy' which I thought was 'sealed'
With Regards to the T8, would you know if it's any better than the T6 for making flashlights? From what I can tell, it's more precise to machine (hence SureFire make the M111 out of it.
Thanks!
Al
KC2IXE
Flashaholic*
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Size15s:
Wow! Thanks for explaining things. I guess I assumed too much.
Would the Anodisation you desribe be like the "Type II" - because normally, they are 'glossy' which I thought was 'sealed'
<snip>
Al<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK, I did a bunch of double checking - The "standard" anodize that I describe is Type I if you don't dye it, and type II if you do. It seems that Type III isn't so much a different "bath" (My mistake), but it's done at a much higher current density
As for which temper is best? First you have do define the alloy, then the temper. This is where the designers make their money - what is the BEST alloy for the job, and then th best temper.
Some of the factors involved are:
Strength, weldability, machineability, can ithe alloy be anodized, cost, intended use, etc. For instance 2024 is just about the most machineable alloy out there - you can run your lathe/mill much faster then if you were running, say 7075 at the same temper. The thing is, it's not as strong. It's all tradeoffs
here is a page that will give you some idea
http://www.principalmetals.com/properties/step1.asp
LOOK at how many different KINDS of Al are there (They list 46 different kinds of Al, not counting tempers).
Which alloy is best? You tell me! (I'm not kidding)
Wow! Thanks for explaining things. I guess I assumed too much.
Would the Anodisation you desribe be like the "Type II" - because normally, they are 'glossy' which I thought was 'sealed'
<snip>
Al<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK, I did a bunch of double checking - The "standard" anodize that I describe is Type I if you don't dye it, and type II if you do. It seems that Type III isn't so much a different "bath" (My mistake), but it's done at a much higher current density
As for which temper is best? First you have do define the alloy, then the temper. This is where the designers make their money - what is the BEST alloy for the job, and then th best temper.
Some of the factors involved are:
Strength, weldability, machineability, can ithe alloy be anodized, cost, intended use, etc. For instance 2024 is just about the most machineable alloy out there - you can run your lathe/mill much faster then if you were running, say 7075 at the same temper. The thing is, it's not as strong. It's all tradeoffs
here is a page that will give you some idea
http://www.principalmetals.com/properties/step1.asp
LOOK at how many different KINDS of Al are there (They list 46 different kinds of Al, not counting tempers).
Which alloy is best? You tell me! (I'm not kidding)
Size15's
Flashaholic
No time now as I've got 6 hours to finish a 10,000 word Final Year Project. That's TEN THOUSAND Words of... "Shhh! It is time I got back to work!"
Anyway, I'll look at your link later. Thanks for the info!
Al
Anyway, I'll look at your link later. Thanks for the info!
Al
