Lithium battery owners could go to jail!

Wow, you guys are not going to believe this one, but in the process of studying the environmental effects of lithium batteries this morning, I stumbled on something that was very disturbing. It seems that lithium taken from lithium batteries is one of the key ingredients in the manufacture of Methamphetamines!

After getting over my initial shock, I then ran a Google search for "Lithium Batteries" Methamphetamine and was even more shocked once I started reading some of those articles. If you guys have not studied this particular issue yet, you really should. I was amazed to read the stories of drug stores being robbed of all of their lithium batteries by punk kids and also of all the laws that have been passed, and are in the process of being passed, that will prohibit us from owning over a certain number of lithium batteries without being accused of being drug manufacturers!!!

As a for instance, in the first article that shows up on a Google search, it states that under current Indiana law that it is already illegal to own over a certain "unspecified quantity" of lithium batteries in conjunction with any of the following: "24 grams of ephedrine, pseudoephedrine or phenylpropanolamine, or unspecified quantities of such items as hydrogen peroxide or paint thinner".

If you happen to be a carpenter, a painter, run a beauty salon, or are a person with severe allergies and you happen to be a flashaholic at the same time, and you live in Indiana, then better watch out because you are already considered to be a drug dealer by your government under current state law!

You guys may think that I'm overly exaggerating the significance of this, but when you take stupid laws like this in conjunction with other stupid laws that are already out there today such as the Patriot Act and mandatory drug sentencing, and you could be in for all kinds of trouble in the future given just the wrong circumstances. What's next, own too many lithium batteries and be accused of being a terrorist??? What is this crazy world we are living in coming to?

Well, if nothing else, I guess we've learned what some people are doing with all of the worlds used up lithium batteries out there. I guess next we will hear about people dumpster diving for used batteries on the 6:00 news now. Talk about your messed up recycling program.

That's really scarey. I have watched, over the past 50 years, this country slowly change from a pretty free place to one with more and more restictions and interference from government. What is it going to be like in another 50 years?

Paul

Very likely Those In Power will soon give up any pretense of this government being a Democractic Republic, declare the American Empire, and become the acknowledged enemy of every other country in the world. Soon after that, this government will fall. It's like Rome, but modern technology allows the entire cycle to execute much more quickly...

PaulW: "What is it going to be like in another 50 years?"

That question rings in my mind and troubles me every day of my life, as it would most people if they would just keep up with what this government is doing behind the scenes every day.

Also, I forgot to mention in the original post that you can also go to jail if you sell any of the items on that list. The current law says that you would go to jail if you know the stuff you were selling was going to be used for a crime, but how do you prove what you do or do not know? It can not be done. If you were to get a slick enough prosecuting attorney on you in court, he could make a jury of idiots think that you had in mind anything that he wanted them to think.

I guess George Orwell was right about in the future that there would be such things as thought crimes because I keep seeing more and more of them being passed into law all the time.

It scares me too. At least I won't be around to "enjoy" it.

highlandsun: "Very likely Those In Power will soon give up any pretense of this government being a Democractic Republic, declare the American Empire"

That's what I've been warning people about for years not, but few have the foresight to even ponder it. Thomas Jefferson warned us the first symptom of this scenario would be that the government would try to disarm the people and what have you been hearing on the news nearly every night? Almost every night they talk about some new "gun control" law either about to be passed or being passed. If only people would hear that as "citizen control" instead of "gun control", it might just cause some people to realize exactly what is going on here.

The next big symptom as I see it is now we have proven that we don't need the U.N.'s approval to attack any country that we see fit. This, to me, is a direct sign and symptom of where our government is headed. Remember, Bush himself told the world "you are either for us or against us". If a little defenseless country gets out of line, attack it, with no control exerted by the U.N. at all. A governing body that has no power to enforce it's laws is sure to fall and the U.N. is such a governing body and it will someday surely fall apart.

Watch and see if in the future the U.S. doesn't just start annexing any country that it likes till it thinks it's big enough to just declare world rule someday. Our founding fathers warned us of such tyrany in the future if we were not vigilant. I can think of a lot of things to call people now days, but vigilant is not one of them, I'm sorry to have to say.

So you can just chop open a battery like that? It doesn't explode?

Maybe they should make lithium batteries that do explode. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

Read in your best "Cheech and Chong" voice

"Dude, check out these rad 123's?"
"Wow, those are amp'ed man."
"I found em inside an old dudes flashlight. I guess that's where he keeps his stash."
"Cool idea, who would ever think of looking inside a torch for a fix, it's brilliant."

It's something to worry about but I'm not tooo worried about it. I am not saying we need to watch what new laws are going into effect, but this seems like a law that wouldn't really come into play until they'd already launched an investigation on you. What I am saying is if you're buying a lot of Lithium batteries but you're working a normal day job and nobody ever comes to your house, I don't think that the cops are going to investigate you further.

California Health and Safety Code: 11383. (a) Any person who possesses both methylamine and
phenyl-2-propanone (phenylacetone) at the same time with the intent
to manufacture methamphetamine, or who possesses both ethylamine and
phenyl-2-propanone (phenylacetone) at the same time with the intent
to manufacture N-ethylamphetamine, is guilty of a felony and shall be
punished by imprisonment in the state prison for two, four, or six
years.
(b) Any person who possesses at the same time any of the following
combinations, or a combination product thereof, with intent to
manufacture phencyclidine (PCP) or any of its analogs specified in
paragraph (22) of subdivision (d) of Section 11054 or paragraph (3)
of subdivision (e) of Section 11055 is guilty of a felony and shall
be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for two, four, or six
years:
(1) Piperidine and cyclohexanone.
(2) Pyrrolidine and cyclohexanone.
(3) Morpholine and cyclohexanone.
(c) (1) Any person who, with intent to manufacture methamphetamine
or any of its analogs specified in subdivision (d) of Section 11055,
possesses ephedrine or pseudoephedrine, or any salts, isomers, or
salts of isomers of ephedrine or pseudoephedrine, or who possesses a
substance containing ephedrine or pseudoephedrine, or any salts,
isomers, or salts of isomers of ephedrine or pseudoephedrine, or who
possesses at the same time any of the following, or a combination
product thereof, is guilty of a felony and shall be punished by
imprisonment in the state prison for two, four, or six years:
(A) Ephedrine, pseudoephedrine, norpseudoephedrine,
N-methylephedrine, N-ethylephedrine, N-methylpseudoephedrine,
N-ethylpseudoephedrine, or phenylpropanolamine, plus hydriodic acid.

(B) Ephedrine, pseudoephedrine, norpseudoephedrine,
N-methylephedrine, N-ethylephedrine, N-methylpseudoephedrine,
N-ethylpseudoephedrine, or phenylpropanolamine, thionyl chloride and
hydrogen gas.
(C) Ephedrine, pseudoephedrine, norpseudoephedrine,
N-methylephedrine, N-ethylephedrine, N-methylpseudoephedrine,
N-ethylpseudoephedrine, or phenylpropanolamine, plus phosphorus
pentachloride and hydrogen gas.
(D) Ephedrine, pseudoephedrine, norpseudoephedrine,
N-methylephedrine, N-ethylephedrine, N-methylpseudoephedrine,
N-ethylpseudoephedrine, chloroephedrine and chloropseudoephedrine, or
phenylpropanolamine, plus any "reducing" agent.
(2) Any person who, with intent to manufacture methamphetamine or
any of its analogs specified in subdivision (d) of Section 11055,
possesses hydriodic acid or any product containing hydriodic acid is
guilty of a felony and shall be punished by imprisonment in the state
prison for two, four, or six years.
(d) For purposes of this section, "reducing" means a chemical
reaction in which hydrogen combines with another substance or in
which oxygen is removed from a substance.
(e) For purposes of this section, possession of the optical,
positional, or geometric isomer of any of the compounds listed in
this section shall be deemed to be possession of the derivative
substance.
(f) For purposes of this section, possession of immediate
precursors sufficient for the manufacture of methylamine, ethylamine,
phenyl-2-propanone, piperidine, cyclohexanone, pyrrolidine,
morpholine, ephedrine, pseudoephedrine, norpseudoephedrine,
N-methylephedrine, N-ethylephedrine, phenylpropanolamine, hydriodic
acid, thionyl chloride, or phosphorus pentachloride shall be deemed
to be possession of the derivative substance. Additionally,
possession of essential chemicals sufficient to manufacture hydriodic
acid, with intent to manufacture methamphetamine, shall be deemed to
be possession of hydriodic acid. Additionally, possession of any
compound or mixture containing piperidine, cyclohexanone,
pyrrolidine, or morpholine ephedrine, pseudoephedrine,
norpseudoephedrine, N-methylephedrine, N-ethylephedrine,
phenylpropanolamine, hydriodic acid, thionyl chloride, or phosphorus
pentachloride shall be deemed to be possession of the substance.

Mere possession of Lithium batteries won't land you in the pokey..Relax, people...

--dan

wasnt litium a salt subistute at first?

"Mere possession of Lithium batteries won't land you in the pokey..Relax, people..."

Yeah, that law makes it sound like you would have to have a whole chemistry lab to be in trouble, but when you break down all of that technical lingo into real world products that you probably already own, there are lots of things that would qualify. Did you know, for instance, that fingernail polish remover qualifies as one of those? The next problem comes in that you only have to be in possession of a couple of products with those chemicals in it to quality for that mandatory 2, 4 or 6 year felony sentence, not all of them.

Is it just me, or can you guys remember a time when you were free to own most anything that was legal to buy and sell in this country and not have to worry about a mandatory felony jail sentence? So long as people tolerate these sort of abusive laws, that will just encourage them to go one step further, then another step further just like they have been doing for years now.

Saaby: "What I am saying is if you're buying a lot of Lithium batteries but you're working a normal day job and nobody ever comes to your house, I don't think that the cops are going to investigate you further."

Yeah, that's all good and fine till someone that doesn't like you, but knows that you have a lot of any 2 of those ingredients decides to make a simple anonymous phone call from a pay phone (so that it can't be traced) and then you could be facing a mandatory 2+ year felony jail sentence! To me this is an outrage that we have to live in fear of such despicable laws in this country and we should do all that we can to fight against such tyrany. Now that I'm aware of these sort of laws, I plan on informing everyone that I know about them, and if they do the same, then maybe we can get enough opposition to stamp out such crooked laws.

Some believe that the government is already too crooked to change and that only a revolution will ever truly fix all of the damage that has been done to the constitution, but I plan on doing all that I can to try to fix things before it comes to that point. If we all just roll over and give up then things are certain to come to that point. Remember the famous words of Churchill, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance". If you want to be free then you have to be vigilant against such laws as this.

I would like to go back to a country where I can own all of the lithium batteries, cold medicine, paint thinner, hydrogen peroxide, nail polish remover, guns, you name it, that I want without having to worry about somebody tattling to the cops and having them bust down my doors in the middle of the night while I'm sleeping. These kind of laws are just sick and wrong.

Here is a link to the original article that I was referring to. I forgot to post the link earlier.

You're missing the "with intent to manufacture ..." section. Having all those things in your possession might very well get you arrested if they bust down the door for some other reason. But they still have to prove you had intent to manufacture the stuff. Which I hope nobody here does...

Hopefully everyone can afford a good lawyer right?

The mandatory sentence only comes into play once you're found guilty not just of possession of the substance but of planning to make drugs with it.

Everybody has enough faith in the judicial system to think that if they are innocent they will be found innocent right? Now, the interesting stuff will happen when they ask Surefire to turn over the names and addresses of everyone that bought batteries and not just those they already suspect of being drug manufacturers. Any sign of this happening yet?

And for those of you that expect the American army to come and annex you at any moments, all I can say is, you're right and your next. Get ready to write your tax checks to the US government and be forced to wallow in decadent consumerism till the end of your days. Could be worse, but thats a different thread...

The 4th amendment reads...
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

So there probably isn't much to worry about. It might be wise though to buy your monthly supply of Surefire 123A's on the web though. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Ah, if only the good ol' 4th amendment gave the rights and protections that once it did. As an example, just read the Patriot Act (that is now the law of the land) if you think the 4th amendment still affords us any real protection anymore. It's truly a sad state of affairs that this country is in now days.

The 4th amendment was once used to secure our right to not have the government snoop in on all of our phone calls without getting a warrant, pursuant to the "secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures" section of the amendment. Now, post patriot act, the government has the idea that the 4th amendment only applied to phone conversations and is not applicable in the least to all forms of internet communication. The very unaptly named "Patriot Act" has effectively taken away all of our 4th amendment rights on the internet. How long do you think it will take before they reconsider having to get warrants in order to listen in on your phone conversations? Not long I would bet. That is if they are not already doing it secretly in the name of "national security" and we just don't know about it. After all, all they have to do is say that it is necessary for catching terrorist and the public will buy it hook, line and sinker.

Speaking of the Patriot Act, I've read that they are working on the Patriot Act 2 right now and getting ready to ram it down our throats to. I wonder how many constitutional rights we will loose off of that one?

Oh, by the way, just try reading about all of the stuff that they can do to you if they even *suspect* you of being a terrorist. I read it and it nearly made me ashamed to even be an American citizen now days. This removal of our freedoms and rights goes against everything that this country once stood for. I have to ask again, what the heck happened to this once great country? How did we allow things to get to this point, and what, if anything (short of an armed revolution), can be done to fix it?

James S had it right.

Intent is a necessary element to of criminal offense. However these stupid ******* "Zero tolerance" laws, which is a code word for "no sensible thinking people needed"

Then you get people expelled for a having a tableknife in the back of your pickup, parked in the school parking lot. Or the little kid that was expelled for have a one inch long plastic GI joe pistol in school, after he pointed it and said bang.

Freaking idiots,

Well we're sorry, no it doesn't make sense you see it's a zero tolerance law....


GregR

P.S. If you think that is bad, I took a class on Weapons of Mass Destruction for Emergency Responders last year, you ought to read the definition of a WMD...one ounce of explosive !

"*cough, coughTRAINWRECKcough... cough*"

What you call a "trainwreck", I call a public service announcement that very deeply affects everyone here that uses a lithium powered flashlight and keeps a significant number of lithium batteries on hand.

Do you think the cops will actually believe you when you say that you have $100+ worth of lithium batteries in the house just to use in your flashlights? I don't think they would and I'm even more positive that a jury that is probably totally ignorant of the fact that lithium powered flashlights even exist wouldn't buy it. Especially when you take into account the slick prosecuting attorney that will be trying to twist the facts of the situation and trying to convince the jury that you were up to something nefarious. We all should be aware of the crooked laws that our government is passing and should do all in our power to put a stop to it and to warn one another of the danger.

If you think that this thread is a trainwreck and it bothers you to read it then there are literally 1000's of other threads on this very message board that you could be putting your helpful little comments on instead of baiting me into writing a rebuttal such as this and wasting both our time. There are others out there that actually *want* to read this "trainwreck" of a thread and want to know what laws our government is passing that could land them in jail for just owning a lot of flashlight batteries and a few other common household items.