CREE's neutrals have an ugly tint. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral lights?

[Yoda4561]

Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

I see a 29 clearly but there's something behind it in cyan I can't make out by eye. Mind that the comparison with cree's would be far more fair if you used similar CCT's, and I don't necessarily mean what cree bins them at. I've noticed that almost all the Malkoff "3500k" XML shots look to be around 500k cooler (like 4000+) than the "3700k" XPG's

In one of my classes in college they actaully proved that every single one of the 33 people in attendance was colorblind because they couldn't correctly read the following number when it was shown on the projector:

 

[yliu]

This looks very similar to me cool white JetBeam PA40.

 

[yellow]

when typing in "Nichia 219" I ended in an offer / Datasheet, that said:
294 lm @ 1.500 mAh ...
thats condiserably reduced output to me ...
:thinking:


PS: any "ready made" flashlight is nothing.
There simply is no sense in "comparing", as one does not know anything concerning the emitter.
Only when being able to individually choose the led, than it makes sense (like when ordering an insert form nailbender)

f.e. I really like my Quark AA "warm" model but hated all my other Quarks (for being ugly green) and gave them away.
Without being able to order the individual tint one appreciates --> no sense at all.
Thats why I doubt I am going to order any "have luck or not" ready made light in the future ...

 

[jorn]

Some neutral xp-g has ugly tint, some neutral xm-l have ugly tint, some neutral nichia 219 has ugly tint. Thats the tint lottery. Bought 5 nichia 219 form the same bin, and they all looked slightly different. I have "good" xp leds with "better/purer" tint than a "bad" 219. It's a lottery thing.

 

[ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond]

Some neutral xp-g has ugly tint, some neutral xm-l have ugly tint, some neutral nichia 219 has ugly tint. Thats the tint lottery. Bought 5 nichia 219 form the same bin, and they all looked slightly different. I have "good" xp leds with "better/purer" tint than a "bad" 219. It's a lottery thing.

You are forgetting the most important thing!

Most cool LED light have ugly tint. 4 Sevens is the king of crap tints. Most are ugly green or ugly blue. Most cheap cool tint LED lights by poor quality bins because they are dirt cheap in mass. All of these lights have terribly anrgy blue tints. Pretty much any ***crap***fire brand light will have a terrible tint.

 

[ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond]

You are forgetting the most important thing!

Most cool LED light have ugly tint. 4 Sevens is the king of crap tints. Most are ugly green or ugly blue. Most cheap cool tint LED lights by poor quality bins because they are dirt cheap in mass. All of these lights have terribly anrgy blue tints. Pretty much any ***crap***fire brand light will have a terrible tint.

PS - In my opinion the neutral tint "lottery" is much more tightly controlled than that of the cool tint lottery. If you look at the bins available in neutral they are much more tightly batched along the ANSI white curve that that of the cooler tints.

 

[ledmitter_nli]

Some neutral xp-g has ugly tint, some neutral xm-l have ugly tint, some neutral nichia 219 has ugly tint. Thats the tint lottery. Bought 5 nichia 219 form the same bin, and they all looked slightly different. I have "good" xp leds with "better/purer" tint than a "bad" 219. It's a lottery thing.

Tint lottery is BS. You get the BIN that was spec'd for or not.

(Hint: unless you are dealing with unscupulous (mostly chinese) light manufacters)

 

[ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond]

Tint lottery is BS. You get the BIN that was spec'd for or not.

(Hint: unless you are dealing with unscupulous (mostly chinese) light manufacters)

This is mostly true if you are buying individual LEDs as you are paying for a specific tint. But even that binned tint is a range of tints that fall into a space on the ANSI color chart grid. Some bins are more tightly controlled than others. What I mean is that, for example, the 5A tint is sub binned into 5a1, 5a2, 5a3 and 5a4. If you buy a 5a tint you can end up with anything. If you buy a 5a1 tint your LEDs tint range will be more tightly controlled. I have probably gone through close to 100-150 led mods ANSI can assure there are tint differences within even the tightest bins. I have gone through n219 spools of 10 LEDs in a row and some were cooler and warmer than others.

When you buy a production light that doesn't specify a tint bin there most deck itself is a tint lottery. Companies by big batches of LEDs and for them being less particular in the tint means a cheaper price. Win for them, tint lottery for you.

 

[ledmitter_nli]

when typing in "Nichia 219" I ended in an offer / Datasheet, that said:
294 lm @ 1.500 mAh ...
thats condiserably reduced output to me ...
:thinking:


PS: any "ready made" flashlight is nothing.
There simply is no sense in "comparing", as one does not know anything concerning the emitter.
Only when being able to individually choose the led, than it makes sense (like when ordering an insert form nailbender)

f.e. I really like my Quark AA "warm" model but hated all my other Quarks (for being ugly green) and gave them away.
Without being able to order the individual tint one appreciates --> no sense at all.
Thats why I doubt I am going to order any "have luck or not" ready made light in the future ...

"Only when being able to individually choose the led, than it makes sense (like when ordering an insert form nailbender)"

like when ordering an insert from Kerberos...

 

[jorn]

I agree that the neutrals seems to be tighter binned. I rarly gets dissapointed with the tint from most neutral tinted leds. Most of my "keepers" have ended up as neutral tinted.

I got 5 neutral 219 from cutter, all still sticking togeter from the reel. All had small differences in tint. Not as mutch variation as the cree's i have seen so far. But my best tinted "lucky" cree's xp still looks better than my worst "unlucky" nichia 219 . So no, tint lottery is not BS. Buy 10 lights (any brand), and i guarantee you will be able to pick out one that you think looks a little bit better than the 9 other.

 

[Moonwayman]

Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

The 219 really brings out the browns while other LEDs often wash them out. Do you have any direct comparisons between the 219 and hcri xpg?

I think more accurate colors trumps lumens. The information gleaned from the correctly perceived colors of your surroundings hits all the right nerve centers in your visual cortex No seriously,
imagine sprinting through thick forest foliage with a CREE XML warm (err yellow?) blazing in front of you. Browns and greens wash each other out, you're unsure if those are leaves and vines
you need to dodge, or actually a branch!

The Nichia's are like trigonometry nerds. The CREE LED's are like brainless steroid bodybuilders. Yeah they have output, but missing acumen.

 

[ledmitter_nli]

Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

The 219 really brings out the browns while other LEDs often wash them out. Do you have any direct comparisons between the 219 and hcri xpg?

Just what's on the first page. Searching Google images will show you many examples.

 

[Mikeg23]

Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

Ilimination supply (csshih) posted pictures of the Malkoff M61, M61 HCRI, and M61 219.

Based on all the pictures I've seen (including the ones in this thread) I like the warm XPG better than the 219. I don't own a 219 but have several warm and one nuetral XPG.

 

[MichaelW]

Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

5000K is not neutral.
Without spectral power distribution plots, any discussion is pointless.

 

[ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond]

Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

Personally I think that the overall color rendition of everything looks amazing with the N219. Whites appear as white as can be and all the colors are rendered wonderfully.

But, I still seem to prefer a neutral XP-G2 5A3/5C1 tint. It adds a little bit more warmth and when you use it outside everything appears to 'POP' a little bit more providing a touch more depth perception rendering that the N219 lacks.

Also, I've found that the N219 in a more floody application is pretty cool and sterile looking. When you put it in a lens with a tighter spot the neutral quality of the tint comes out.

Notice that I have avoided talking about the HiCRI 90+ XP-G leds. I think that they look wonderful, but they also are the closest replacement to an incan light as well. I set up a light with one of these for my wife and she loves it. My problem come when they are only available in Q2 - very inefficient in comparison to R4 XP-G2 LEDs. I have trouble giving up the lumens for the warmer tint. (I even have this same issue comparing a N219 with a neutral XP-G2).

In a V10R application comparing two exact lights. One with a XP-G2 R4 5A3 and one with N219 there is a distinct difference of at least 100 lumens on high. Also outside the house the depth perception into the trees is much better with the XP-G2.

 

[itguy07]

Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

I think more accurate colors trumps lumens. The information gleaned from the correctly perceived colors of your surroundings hits all the right nerve centers in your visual cortex No seriously,
imagine sprinting through thick forest foliage with a CREE XML warm (err yellow?) blazing in front of you. Browns and greens wash each other out, you're unsure if those are leaves and vines
you need to dodge, or actually a branch!

I'll take lumens any day. I'd rather be able to see something with poor color accuracy than not see something or struggle to see something.

If you are sprinting through the woods and can't tell branches and vines vs leaves you deserve to get knocked out and eaten by the bear yor are trying to avoid!

 

[ledmitter_nli]

Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

5000K is not neutral.

Who said that?

Without spectral power distribution plots, any discussion is pointless.

Gee. You think?

 

[ledmitter_nli]

Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

I'll take lumens any day. I'd rather be able to see something with poor color accuracy than not see something or struggle to see something.

If you are sprinting through the woods and can't tell branches and vines vs leaves you deserve to get knocked out and eaten by the bear yor are trying to avoid!

Sure, I didn't mean to suggest lumens have no bearing in eye sensitivity usefulness. Of course it does. But "BETTER" lumens are more efficient at increasing our perception of a target elicited.

 

[ledmitter_nli]

Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

Personally I think that the overall color rendition of everything looks amazing with the N219. Whites appear as white as can be and all the colors are rendered wonderfully.

But, I still seem to prefer a neutral XP-G2 5A3/5C1 tint. It adds a little bit more warmth and when you use it outside everything appears to 'POP' a little bit more providing a touch more depth perception rendering that the N219 lacks.

Also, I've found that the N219 in a more floody application is pretty cool and sterile looking. When you put it in a lens with a tighter spot the neutral quality of the tint comes out.

Notice that I have avoided talking about the HiCRI 90+ XP-G leds. I think that they look wonderful, but they also are the closest replacement to an incan light as well. I set up a light with one of these for my wife and she loves it. My problem come when they are only available in Q2 - very inefficient in comparison to R4 XP-G2 LEDs. I have trouble giving up the lumens for the warmer tint. (I even have this same issue comparing a N219 with a neutral XP-G2).

In a V10R application comparing two exact lights. One with a XP-G2 R4 5A3 and one with N219 there is a distinct difference of at least 100 lumens on high. Also outside the house the depth perception into the trees is much better with the XP-G2.

Re: your comment about the XPG2 adding "a little bit more warmth and when you use it outside everything appears to 'POP' a little bit more providing a touch more depth perception rendering that the N219 lacks."

Really? I mean, really? I believe it's the other way around. Seeing color rendered through "pure" neutral light (sunlight 5500 Kelvin) is a hardwired component of our brain. Opting for artificial lighting that's either too cool or too warm is only forcing our visual cortex to struggle harder, things really look artificial. If you consider high CRI flashlights, the closer we get to simulating natural sunlight, the better the subjects to our lights will appear. Skewing towards "warmer" or "cooler" is adverse to how evolution evolved us to see. These cool and warm tints don't serve a purpose for anything other than being an achievement stepping stone to something better. For now the Nichia 219 actually *is* better

Reminder: Warm and cool wavelengths are not "NATURAL"

 

[ledmitter_nli]

Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML

The holy grail of LED flashlight BIN and tints, IMO

Can anybody figure out what it is?