Another Newbie Trying To Build a Mag 623

[jseklund]

Hi everyone. I've been visiting this forum off and on for almost 2 years but never posted. About 2 years ago, I discovered Cree flashlights and thought they were the shizzle. I got a Fenix P3D for my b-day and I have carried it everyday since. You never realize how handy a flashlight is to have around until you have one you can carry all the time.

My next step was to put a Malkoff Drop-In into a Mag 3D. Great. I thought I was all set, 2 great lights.

Then I started reading, recently, about the power of modified Mag incan lights. I am dying to build a Mag 623 now. Even my gf wants me to do it, since she's seen the videos of people setting things on fire with them. (Didn't think that would get her interest, but I was suprised). While I'm a lot less lost than I was a month ago, having read through the forum, I'm still a bit confused/unsure about many issues.

Things I know:
I know that I will need a borofloat lense and aluminum reflector. I know I will need to decide on a new bi-pin bulb. I also know that I need to have some way of adapting the switch to accept bi-pin bulbs.

Things I'm not so sure about:
1. I am thinking of just getting a new switch for the light altogether to help reduce instaflash issues, but I'm not sure what the exact benefits of Alan B's programmable regulated driver are vs. the non-programable soft start switch (in real world terms). I may further modify the light in the future, and want flexibility, and my gut tells me that this is the benefit. I also feel it will protect the bulb and batteries better, while possibly turning a "WOW" light into somethign that is a little more useable? Input is appreciated. I don't understand yet all the wattage issues...

2. Fivemega or LuxLuthor power solutions. Both look like quality items. It looks like FM's solution may be more simple, while LL's may provide more wattage?? Not sure which to use.

3. Tri-/Quad-Bore. I have a lot of tools, and feel like I may be able to do this on my own..but wonder what each entails, and what the tri/quad means, especially in terms of dimensions.

4. If I get the soft start switch or the programmable regulator - do these have the adapter for the bi-pin bulb built into them? Or do I need to buy another adapter?

I think this covers the big stuff...sorry for being a newbie and asking questions that may have been asked before. I have been trying to educate myself as much as I can, with the little time that I have - but I could use a little boost I guess.

If anyone has any of the above they are looking to sell, feel free to PM me. Thanks again.

 

[mrartillery]

Alan B's are great, although you will be waiting along time to get your hands on one. Your best bet is a AW Incan Driver, although he is currently out of stock but production should pick back up within the next month so, so says his thread. Another option which is what I use for my 623, and other high current incans, is the rocker switch mod which is linked in my signature below. It can handle all the amps you can throw it. As for powering it, if you tri bore it, battery packs are hard to come by as Lux doesnt make them anymore and the closest thing you can get now is a 14.4v pack, also the tri bore is mainly done to 2 D's for the 623 configuration. To push the 623 as hard as it needs to be I would suggest 4 IMR 26500's which will fit in a 3 D with a cut and recessed spring. These will power the 623 up to the initial 16.5v which is where I power mine.

 

[Raoul_Duke]

Just like mrartillery said.....That is a quick easy relitivly cheap and good first 64623.

It can get more complicated than that....I would suggest a simple basic build, and work up from there if you like it.

If you have more money than sence you can upgrade a few different ways from a simple switch...Like I said the switch is the cheapest, but harder on the lamps...risk of flashing lamps, ( not a realy big deal) and over discharging cells which may be more costly.

or go soft start ( AW switch/ or fully regulated) To help the lamp life.
& the best bit ( in my eye) is that the Alan B or Jimmy M regulator will help protect your cells...you wont over discharge them.

If you have a regulator you could use 5 or more li-ion cells ( providing they can handle the 10A current draw) and use the regulator to throttle the power to the lamp back for the full runitme.....this will up your runtime and give you a regulated light as opposed to one that is regulated but falls out of regulation when the pack falls under the regulator set V max.

So 4 x li-ion on AW incan driver, or 4 or more on the Jimmy M/ Alan B regulator ( but the two regulators can and should be set to protect your cells from over discharge,...something the AW wont do so you have to know when to turn off so as not to over discharge your cells...

You need to decide what mag host you want to carry/ use ( small & compact or big and hefty) ~...2D ( Only way I know is the tribore NiMh pack to acheve the required Voltage), or 3D, 4D, 5D, 6D ( that will give you an idea what batterys you can fit in. ( or you can go custom hosts which will cost more, but give you different options, and a custom look.
You could also use a 4C mag...you may have to lightly bore it out with a drill and a brake hone but thats easy enough, no regulators for the C yet...but they are being worked on :devil: C are nice in the hand...I have a 6C Mag 64623 on 4 x 26700 cells.

Then you can decide on type and size of cells.

( I have quire a few 64623's...but an example of a more complicated one is my 6D Mag 623 with a regulator and 6 x A123 cells ( 3.3 nominal voltage as opposed to the 3.7V of li-ion 18650, 26500, or 26650 or 26700 cells.) less voltage but more current capable and faster charge rates. My pack has a peak unloaded V of 21.6V and under load it would see 19.8V or less as the cells discharge...this is way above the flashpoint of the 64623 ( ~ 16.5V) but when the cells are rundown and empty ( they shouldn't go lower than 2.5V But I have mine set to cut out at 2.8V under load for a bit of a saftey buffer if one cell has less cappacity than the others and runs down quickest) & I still have a pack with an end voltage of 16.8V which is enought to keep the lamp in regulation the whole time...


I would say a regulator is best...I have mine running fairly hot, and the high temp set at 70 deg C. This cuts out the light after a few minutes on high, but you could always dial it back a bit for more runtime on high, or go to one of the lower levels...or set it up to run just as you'd like.

IF you are going to go the 623 route I would suggest a decent hobby charger to replace whatever chargers you have...the BC-6 has worked well for me and replaced all my other chargers....Faster charge rates, mains, or run of the car battery, and ballance cables can be made up to charge li-ion cells in series correctly no need for sperate power supply and whn I bought it ( havent checked recently) it was a good deal compared to others.


I could go on...but there is a whole bunch of stuff here on 64623's

 

[jseklund]

Wow guys,
Thanks for both responses. I think I'm starting to get this a little...and after further research, I may go with a 633 bulb...if it's that much brighter.

I like the regulator idea - I just feel like it's the way to go. If I'm going to spend $75 on the soft start, I may as well get an adjustable, regulated switch that protects bulb and batteries and can be programmed for its use. I am also under the impression that the regulator has multiple settings - i.e. - I can have a low/high setting? I'm looking to get wow more than anything, so 8,000 lumens and 5-6 minutes of runtime would be great. But if I could flip a switch and get a lower output and an hour of runtime while not giving up the "wow" factor, I'm in...is this the case with the regulator?

As for powering - After reading your posts, I have begun further research on the batteries. It sounds like the 26700's are the way to go, and I could get 3 of these into the Mag 3D w/ a tail spring mod. Does this sound right? Also, if I wanted to go to a Mag 633 instead, would this power?

Also - not clear on whether or not Alan B's regulator has an adapter built into it for the bi-pin? Or do I need to buy something extra?

So I think the build list, at this time, would look something like:

Mag 3D
Alan B Regulator (w/ bi-pin adapter?)
3 IMR 26700's?
Borofloat Lens
Aluminum Reflector (any specific size?)
I'm thinking of the 64633 bulb instead of the 623 now...not sure if this will work though.

Thanks again!

 

[Raoul_Duke]

On med ( and you can have a few different levels) you are looking at ~ double the runtime and then double again on low......but It would be very dim. Thats on a AW switch, and the times are only a guestimate...I dont know where the levels are set on that.
If setting up a regulator for low to last an hour... it would be sickly underdriven orange, and not sure if the lamp would be being too underdriven to be healthy for the lamp.


3 x 26700 is not enough...although when you say 26700 you are talking Emoli cells right? you need 4 for direct drive or 5 for full regulation. downside is Emoil have less cappacity ( 3000 labled, and less at the 10-12A draw) but they can handle it unlike the 26650's.

I havent looked at the AW IMR 26500's but sure they will be fine for the 64623's 10A, but unsure if they can do constant 12A...probably can but you'll need to check.

64633 pulls 12A and the orange 4000mAh cells are only rated for 10A ( 64623 pulls ~ 10A) cont. current draw, so Emoli are the only way ( I know) to go ( or A123 M1 cells, but you'll need more cells and a special charger) You'll need 4 or 5 cells for the 633 also.

633 won't..or is less likely to pop on 4 x 4.2V resting cells...I have DD a 64623 on 4 emoli and only popped one, but I know I had some resistance....the 64633 has also instaflashed, but I cant remember what I was doing with that. Th 64633 only has a 50H life at default though compared to the 64623's so thats even less time you can overdrive it.

 

[mrartillery]

If you are wanting to stay within the 3 D format, then I personally would go with the 4 IMR 26500's and a AW soft start with a 623. The 633 is a great build as well, but IMO I like the 623 better, much more resilient than the 633. This would make you a great first build, plus you will have the option of 3 different brightness settings. Also, I dont think me or Raoul either one has mentioned it, but you do need to be aware that IMR type cells dont have a protection circuit like other common Li-ions due to their safer chemistry make up, so especially when using large current drawing bulbs such as the Osrams, you need to be very cautious of your battery voltages. Over discharge a IMR cell and they're junk.

 

[jseklund]

Wow,
This stuff is crazy. I'm not set on the 3D other than I had one already. It looks like I really should be looking at a 4D w/ 5 26500 batteries, which are easier to come by and fit the format.

Also, I may be misunderstanding things - so please don't misunderstand me and think I'm being argumentative - but the 633 uses 150W and is rated at 15V, which means that it is has a 10 amp draw, right? This is why you need at least 4 cells (4.2*4 = 16.8V) and 5 cells are better and will actually allow for overdriving?

Now, as far as the soft start switch vs. regulated switch - If I go with a 633, I'm unlikely to toast the bulb, but I have to worry about the batteries. Do I just stop using the light when it dims? I'm not sure visual detection is the best way to do this, which is what makes me lean towards the alan B regulator. If visual inspection or some other method can be used as a guide, I'm good with that.

I'm thinking of a 4D now with 5 IMR 26500's, borofloat lense, aluminum reflector (MOP), 64633 bulb and a switch of some sort.

Does the softstart come with the adapter for the bi-pin bulb? Or do I need to get something else like a kiu socket?

Thanks again for all the help. I feel much more confident in what I'm doing with this now that I've spoken to the two of you.

 

[mrartillery]

Wow,
This stuff is crazy. I'm not set on the 3D other than I had one already. It looks like I really should be looking at a 4D w/ 5 26500 batteries, which are easier to come by and fit the format.

Also, I may be misunderstanding things - so please don't misunderstand me and think I'm being argumentative - but the 633 uses 150W and is rated at 15V, which means that it is has a 10 amp draw, right? This is why you need at least 4 cells (4.2*4 = 16.8V) and 5 cells are better and will actually allow for overdriving?

Now, as far as the soft start switch vs. regulated switch - If I go with a 633, I'm unlikely to toast the bulb, but I have to worry about the batteries. Do I just stop using the light when it dims? I'm not sure visual detection is the best way to do this, which is what makes me lean towards the alan B regulator. If visual inspection or some other method can be used as a guide, I'm good with that.

I'm thinking of a 4D now with 5 IMR 26500's, borofloat lense, aluminum reflector (MOP), 64633 bulb and a switch of some sort.

Does the softstart come with the adapter for the bi-pin bulb? Or do I need to get something else like a kiu socket?

Thanks again for all the help. I feel much more confident in what I'm doing with this now that I've spoken to the two of you.

The 633 draws around 12 amps when overdriven, use this thread for popular bulb voltages and current draws. The 4.2v that you are calculating is the figure for fresh cells right off the charger, the 633 will pull the cells down in a hurry at 12 amps, 3.7 is the nominal voltage for a Li-ion cell. And yes 5 cells will work better for overdriving because you will be able to set you voltage at whatever you want, for instance at 17.4v, this would be what the bulb is having delivered to it at all times, this is what regulated means.

As for stopping when the light dims, you will most likely not see a diming of the light if you chose to use a regulator, because as stated above the bulb will receive a constant power. For example, the cells at 3.7v nominal x 5 cells is 18.5v, is you have 17.4 delivered to the bulb, then therefore you will see no difference in the dimming of the light. And remember, IMR are not suppose to be discharged below 3.6v. However with a AW switch, it is not regulated and you will notice a relative dimming and yellowing of the beam.

Socket is made on to the either the Alan B or AW, nothing else to buy.

If you really have your heart set on a 633, there are other options, like a 5D with a AW softstart and 5 Lifep04 cells which produce 3.2v instead of the 3.7 and can be bled down enough with the softstart to prevent the of the bulb. Check out one that member TKO built a couple of years ago.

Keep in mind though, that this setup will not deliver a constant voltage like the regulator, but 7k bulb lumens is truly a sight to behold.

 

[jseklund]

Haha, I am excited to see 7,000 lumens. I don't know what it is - I have a Fenix P3D that I thought was so bright when I got it, and I love the thing. I love when people pull out their flash light in the dark (I am a commercial real estate broker and carry the thing with me all the time), and they go running into the dark like they're set. Then I pull mine out of my pocket (which they didn't even know I had on me), and light the place up and you can't even see their light. For some reason though, no one ever asks about the light or makes any comment....I guess there aren't many of us around that truly appreciate this stuff. I don't care though, I just love it.

Anyway, LuxLuthor's thread is def. helpful and I've been reviewing it (even if some of my questions seem like I haven't been searching through the forums - I have. I'm just slow sometimes, hehe). What I was going off was this chart for the 633:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/pike444/bulbs/64633.jpg

It appears that if I overdrive the bulb to about 17.8V, I will get somewhere between 8,500-10,000 lumens out of the light?? Or am I reading this wrong? I can't imagine it, so I want to see it. I'm sure it would light up the neighborhood!!!

I think the bottom line is that I'll be much happier with the regulator...If I'm spending $80 on the AW soft start, I may as well spend $110 on the regulated switch and do it right. I know that there's expense of buying the programmer too, but I can do that down the road I'm guessing if I have Alan B program it.

I also wanted to keep this as small as possible, but it looks like the 4D w/ the 26500's is the easiest way to go that makes the most sense.

Also, you say not to let V drop below 3.6V?? I thought they got damaged at 2.5V (so you set the regulator to turn off around 2.8V or something like that). Is this incorrect?

It's funny- 2 days ago, I didn't have a clue where to start. I knew what I posted in the beginning - I need a switch, glass, reflector, and a way to power - but I feel like it's so much more clear now. Thanks for the help.

 

[mrartillery]

Haha, I am excited to see 7,000 lumens. I don't know what it is - I have a Fenix P3D that I thought was so bright when I got it, and I love the thing. I love when people pull out their flash light in the dark (I am a commercial real estate broker and carry the thing with me all the time), and they go running into the dark like they're set. Then I pull mine out of my pocket (which they didn't even know I had on me), and light the place up and you can't even see their light. For some reason though, no one ever asks about the light or makes any comment....I guess there aren't many of us around that truly appreciate this stuff. I don't care though, I just love it.

Anyway, LuxLuthor's thread is def. helpful and I've been reviewing it (even if some of my questions seem like I haven't been searching through the forums - I have. I'm just slow sometimes, hehe). What I was going off was this chart for the 633:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/pike444/bulbs/64633.jpg

It appears that if I overdrive the bulb to about 17.8V, I will get somewhere between 8,500-10,000 lumens out of the light?? Or am I reading this wrong? I can't imagine it, so I want to see it. I'm sure it would light up the neighborhood!!!

I think the bottom line is that I'll be much happier with the regulator...If I'm spending $80 on the AW soft start, I may as well spend $110 on the regulated switch and do it right. I know that there's expense of buying the programmer too, but I can do that down the road I'm guessing if I have Alan B program it.

I also wanted to keep this as small as possible, but it looks like the 4D w/ the 26500's is the easiest way to go that makes the most sense.

Also, you say not to let V drop below 3.6V?? I thought they got damaged at 2.5V (so you set the regulator to turn off around 2.8V or something like that). Is this incorrect?

It's funny- 2 days ago, I didn't have a clue where to start. I knew what I posted in the beginning - I need a switch, glass, reflector, and a way to power - but I feel like it's so much more clear now. Thanks for the help.

My opinion, dont set the regulator for 17.8v, this will push it extremely hard and greatly hurt the life of the bulb and increase your chances for instaflash. Personally I would set it at around 17.5v, although .3v doesnt sound like much, truly it is. My 6 D with a 64656 in it will flash every time at 28.6v, but at 28.2 it will not, so yes it does make a difference. With soft start you can push the bulbs a little harder because the filament has time to warm up on the lower settings.

2.5v is when the protection circuit of a protected Li-ion cuts the voltage off to keep from damaging the cells, keep in mind that IMR cells have a different chemistry and are not protected, therefore their voltage needs to be monitored to keep from over discharging, other wise you will destroy $16 a piece batteries.

 

[mrartillery]

Also, the 10k lumen figure you're looking at is bulb lumens, so by the time you figure, your out the front loss through the reflector, heat etc. you will be in the 7-8k lumen range.

 

[jseklund]

You mean, I'll destroy $16 a piece in batteries, potentiall X5 all at once!

Got it, nothing below 3.6V on these cells. I would've f'd that up quickly if you didn't point that out. I should send you $80 right now just for that!!

But you're telling me that I'll only see 7-8K in lumens out the front!? Why bother? We've wasted all this time. haha. I'm still pretty sure it will be shock and awe.

 

[jseklund]

Judging by that chart, I'm guessing 17.6V is the way to go (unless you disagree). The jump from 17.4 is still pretty substantial, while the jump from 17.6-17.8 diminishes greatly. The added safety vs. greater power tells me the 17.6V setting is better. What's 150 lumens at this point anyway?

 

[mrartillery]

Yes, you need to buy yourself a multimeter and keep check on your battery voltages, you dont have to buy an expensive one, but you will need one. According to the formula you should get around 8 minutes of runtime, but you will need to check your voltages before that. 17.6 should be fine, the regulator is adjustable so if you have problems you can get it re-calibrated. But as I mentioned earlier, you will probably waiting for quite some time to get one of Alan B's as he hasn't been producing them in awhile.