BAN HID headlights, FINE users, JAIL converters!

-Virgil-

Flashaholic
Joined
Mar 26, 2004
Messages
7,802
Did you retrofit a drop in HID system to a H13 dual beam headlamp, or did you retrofit a bi-projector HID lamp?
Because one is HIGLY ILLEGAL, and one is just bad.

That's exactly right. Mweiss, you are quite wrong; your headlights are not safer or better with "HID kits" installed, no matter how much you want to believe otherwise. "HID kits" in halogen-bulb headlamps simply do not work safely or effectively, which is why they are illegal. See here. Bad headlamps remain bad headlamps no matter what bulb is installed; high-wattage or wrong-type (HID) bulbs in badly-engineered halogen headlights do not make the light better, they amplify all the problems caused by the bad engineering.

Ford used to have 'quad beam' headlights 2002-2005 (after having dual beams prior, and then returning. It is like Ford doesn't even want to market to the top half of the bell curve.)

Ford has long considered itself the American leader in lighting. I personally think they're full of it, though at last we have been seeing some good lighting on American Ford products in the last few years. They're still cheaping out on a lot of their vehicles with 9007 and H13 combination high/low beam lights not engineered or built to produce a particularly well focused beam pattern. And they still install ridiculously thin headlight wiring on a lot of their vehicles, too.

Until the US adopts (requires) the ECE headlight design standard, HIDs should be banned, not mandated.

HIDs should neither be banned nor mandated. They should be properly regulated. And guess what, the Europeans are thinking of creating a ~20w HID bulb and ballast system producing 2000 lumens, specifically to circumvent the ECE Regulation 48 requirement that headlamps containing low-beam light sources producing more than 2000 lumens be equipped with automatic levelling and lens cleaning systems. They say they want to do this so as to make it easier (less $$) for automakers to offer HID headlights and thereby extend the safety benefit of HID headlights to less expensive cars. But we have very recent, very good quality data (and it's even from the United States!) clearly demonstrating that the lack of automatic levelling creates very substantial safety performance deficits in all headlights, not just HID lights. That strongly suggests a large part of the safety benefit of HIDs is attributable to the automatic levelling. So I think the European effort to sidestep the auto levelling requirement would be a step in the wrong direction. Much better to require that all headlights be equipped with auto levelling.

Yes everyone should have good headlights, that is why dual beams should be banned

Dual beam headlights (combination high/low beam) should not be banned. Bad headlights should be banned, i.e., both the US and ECE headlight regulations should be tightened up to reduce the allowances both regulations contain for bad headlights. There are good dual-beam headlights, y'know, and there are bad single-beam (high-only or low-only) headlights. Good headlights are better than bad headlights, period. Halogen, xenon, LED, dual-beam, single-beam...doesn't matter. Good lights are good, bad lights are bad.

H13s are a dead end

Not necessarily, no. I can't think of any H13 headlights I think super highly of, but it's a better bulb than 9007 and it is possible to create a good beam pattern with an H13 bulb. It's challenging, and much harder than if Ford and Sylvania hadn't perpetrated yet another one of their "The stupid Europeans and Asians can go screw themselves; we Americans know best" jobs; the European/Asian proposal for the new double-filament bulb, the "DFCS", would have greatly facilitated the creation of really good dual-beam headlights, but it got shouted down by Ford and Sylvania. Same team who gave us at least six other big, stinky turds in the headlight world.

H4s are old (but good)

There are some very good H4 headlights, but there are an awful lot of really lousy ones, too. You need a big reflector to get decent performance out of an H4 on low beam, because you're only able to use a little over half the reflector/lens area (due to the big filament shield).


(9007, 9004, 9003 are a joke)

9003 = H4, so the comments above apply. There are good and rotten 9003 headlights. 9004 is a pathetic mess, and 9007 is only moderately better -- both of those are Ford's "better ideas".

lets not get started on sealed beams.

There have been some good sealed beams, and there have been a lot of bad ones. Again (and again and again): Good lights are good, bad lights are bad. There's nothing inherent in the sealed beam concept that prevents making a good sealed beam. As with most other engineered products, the result depends on the goals: Do you want a good headlight, a cheap headlight, a pretty headlight...? Don't dismiss the concept just because so many of the implementations have been ****-poor. The concept itself has a lot going for it: The front of the car is a very severe environment. Sealed headlights make a lot of sense because they're resistant to water and dirt entry (and to tampering by dumbnuts kidzzz putting in blue 100w bulbs and "HID kits"...).

P.S. If lighting is something that is important to you, why the hell did you buy the [new] Ford?

That is a very good question!
 

270winchester

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 9, 2004
Messages
3,983
Location
down the road from Pleasure Point.
hey Scheinwerfermann:

a few question for you, it'ssomething that has been bugging me. We have three cars that exhibit the progression of lights that is in this discussion: one with 9004, one with 9003, and one with 9005 high and 9006 low. The 9005/9006 combo is the best of the three, by far.

Now, on the 9003 bulb, there is a shield within the bulb envelope that creates the cut-off in the low beam. Does that shield block half the output, or is the shield reflective enough that the blocked light gets bounced back to the proper side of the reflector to be usable in the beam? A different type of shield is used outside of the bulb as an integral part of the low beam housing with the 9006 lights. I wonder what the "out the front" output is relative to the bulb output.

by comparison the 9004 bulb has two filaments with one on top of each other, so does the low beam lose part of its output to the upper beam filament blocking part of the direction in which light emits? The 9004 bulb has no shields of any kind, what is the loss in output due to the filament arrangement?
 
Last edited:

MichaelW

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
1,788
Location
USA
I should have said, until the regulations are honest, HIDs should be put on hold.
I think that HIDs should be projector based, and they should have front and rear axle sensors (for dynamic leveling) and a good cleaning system.


What makes those ECE dorks think that someone wont find a way to fit a 35 watt HID back into those 20 watt lamps?
and what about the H7s with H9 burners, or HIR1 (in place of 9005, in place of 9006)?
 

-Virgil-

Flashaholic
Joined
Mar 26, 2004
Messages
7,802
hey Scheinwerfermann:

a few question for you, it'ssomething that has been bugging me. We have three cars that exhibit the progression of lights that is in this discussion: one with 9004, one with 9003, and one with 9005 high and 9006 low. The 9005/9006 combo is the best of the three, by far.

9004: 1983
9003 (H4): 1971, permitted in USA in 1992.
9005/9006: 1987

That puts something of a dent in your "progression" idea, doesn't it?

Now, on the 9003 bulb, there is a shield within the bulb envelope that creates the cut-off in the low beam. Does that shield block half the output

Yes. It is non-optical; not a reflector. It's not very specular once it heats up (which takes a very short time after the low beam is powered up), but the rather minor amount of light it reflects (and emits as incandescence) cannot be focused by the reflector and lens.

A different type of shield is used outside of the bulb as an integral part of the low beam housing with the 9006 lights

That's a totally different item, called a "bulb shield". Its one and only job is to block stray light travelling directly from the filament through the lens. This stray (or "waste") light cannot be focused or controlled by even an optic lens to contribute usably to a beam pattern, it can only create glare. The bulb shield is not an auxiliary reflector of any kind, nor does removing it improve the beam pattern in any way —*both are common misconceptions. Removing the bulb shield can only increase the glare and backscatter produced by the lamp. Bulb shields are used (and not used) in headlamps with all kinds of bulbs.

by comparison the 9004 bulb has two filaments with one on top of each other, so does the low beam lose part of its output to the upper beam filament blocking part of the direction in which light emits?

There is some of the shadowing effect you have in mind with 9004, 9007, and H13. It's not major. The more significant effect from a beam formation standpoint is phantom light from reflection and glow of the de-energized high beam filament lit and heated by the energized nearby low beam filament. It causes glare above horizontal. So does reflection off the bulb supports and bulb envelope base pinch. The latter factors are very well controlled in H13 relative to 9004 and 9007, but adjacent-filament reflection and glow is one of the major factors making it tough to create a low beam with a sharp cutoff and minimal stray light above horizontal.
 

-Virgil-

Flashaholic
Joined
Mar 26, 2004
Messages
7,802
I should have said, until the regulations are honest, HIDs should be put on hold.

H'mm. It'll never happen, but it's an interesting thought exercise.

I think that HIDs should be projector based, and they should have front and rear axle sensors (for dynamic leveling) and a good cleaning system.

I agree with you on the dynamic levelling and cleaning, and mostly on the projector as well, though it's somewhat more difficult to justify that preference.

What makes those ECE dorks think that someone wont find a way to fit a 35 watt HID back into those 20 watt lamps?

They're not thinking about it. Perhaps someone who cares will raise that issue at the next relevant technical conference.

and what about the H7s with H9 burners, or HIR1 (in place of 9005, in place of 9006)?

What about them? Regulations are written around the assumption of the specified bulb being used.
 

idleprocess

Flashaholic
Joined
Feb 29, 2004
Messages
7,197
Location
decamped
I don't understand the whinging about HID glare.

To be brutally honest, in my experience, the people that complain about HID's also tend to be the type to **** and moan about being passed with a > 10MPH closure rate, startle quite easily, twitch violently when startled, and are inexplicably borderline aggressive towards motorcycle riders. These folks are oftentimes a hazard to those around them because they drive too slow (appreciably below average traffic speed) and badly overreact to the unexpected. I really question why they're out on the roads at night when they exhibit poor driving aptitude and mindset.

I admit that I could be wrong in my assessment due to my limited sample depth.

I'm gathering that DOT headlight standards cater to the lowest common denominator while making it difficult to deliver a high-performance solution. Horrific headlight systems pass through, but good headlight systems that violate some trivial-seeming regulation are denied... systems that seem to be pretty run-of-the-mill in the rest of the world. Is it just that we have generations of drivers conditioned to crappy DOT headlight systems?

I used to drive a vehicle with 9004s and agree that they were barely adequate. I was severely tempted to install a retrofit kit, but they cost too much at the time and I wasn't quite dissatisfied enough with their performance.

If it weren't for my decent night vision, I would be tempted to somehow upgrade the halogen projectors on my current vehicle (H7's) because the low beams do not quite project far enough for nighttime highway driving (on the other hand, the high beams are quite satisfying). Too bad that the OEM probably doesn't sell the factory HID assembly for a reasonable price (if they sell them to the general public at all).

I'm also curious how much of the regulations surrounding headlight design is regulation for regulations' sake. For example: The EPA does not protect the environment; it enforces regulations intended to protect the environment, with the net effect often being that environmental damage often occurs anyway but immense effort was expended filling out forms and performing symbolic actions. Once industry stops fighting regulation and accepts it as a cost of doing business it also becomes a handy barrier to entry for would-be competitors without the experience (or capital) to work the system. Just try to produce engines, telecommunications equipment, or build a building without spending immense sums of time and/or money complying with countless government regulations - many of which have questionable-at-best purposes.
 
Last edited:

chmsam

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
2,241
Location
3rd Stone
I don't understand the whinging about HID glare.

To be brutally honest, in my experience, the people that complain about HID's also tend to be the type to **** and moan about being passed with a > 10MPH closure rate, startle quite easily, twitch violently when startled, and are inexplicably borderline aggressive towards motorcycle riders. These folks are oftentimes a hazard to those around them because they drive too slow (appreciably below average traffic speed) and badly overreact to the unexpected. I really question why they're out on the roads at night when they exhibit poor driving aptitude and mindset.

Gotta disagree, at least for myself. That's a whole 'nother problem. I have no problem with being overtaken because I use my mirrors and I'm watching for it. I keep an eye out for motorcycles and cut them a lot of slack. Etc., etc. Most folks I know do so as well (but that sure doesn't mean everyone else does). But a lot of HID's really tick me off. So do a lot of the "extreme" white (or blue white) lights. Not so much because they're bright but because 99% of the folks who have them are too lazy to aim those mothers! No one even reads their owners manual to figure out that it is not a tough job. Well, to be fair -- and it's been mentioned before -- manufacturers big failure is to set ANY sort of standard so that aiming is uniform, easy, and practical. In fact NY no longer has headlight aim as part of the inspection process and hasn't for years. Manufacturers don't have aiming tabs on headlight assemblies any longer.

So it's easy to see why extra bright lights and annoying color tints (which really don't help much if it all) are allowed to be aimed high and to the left in this country. But that's what most people find annoying and it really can be dangerous, especially with HID's. Not only are they brighter but most HID systems I have seen have very little margin for correctly aiming them -- far less than other types of lights. Being able to see better is a good reason for having an efficient set of lights on the car. But it's really a good idea to get the lights set up so they let the other drivers be able to see as well. A good "zot" from badly aimed HID's on high (and some really poorly aimed HID's even on low) will destroy night vision worse than halogens but that just means they're more noticeable. There's a lot of people on the road who can't figure out why the trees in front of them are so bright and that maybe they ought to do something about it. So, while I think HID's are a good idea, maybe they only should be sold to someone after they take an IQ test.
 

Patriot

Flashaholic
Joined
Feb 13, 2007
Messages
11,254
Location
Arizona
Cry me a river... A projector with a HID isn't any different than a halogen. The optics are the same. If it wasn't we wouldn't be able to drop a HID bulb in place of a Halogen in a spotlight / searchlight and have it work.


+1 to that.

I don't have HID's in my vehicle but I could care less if someone else does as long as they're not hurting anyone. How about just ticket people if their headlamps aren't adjusted properly no matter the type.

Live and let live dude.
 

rushnrockt

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
170
+1 to that.

I don't have HID's in my vehicle but I could care less if someone else does as long as they're not hurting anyone. How about just ticket people if their headlamps aren't adjusted properly no matter the type.

When the guy's light spills so much light that it lights up road signs over the road only 30 feet ahead, that starts to hurt. Especially when that guy is behind you. I drive a lifted car, so when I see a car that is lighting up all my mirrors AND shining underneath all at the same time, something is wrong.
 

Patriot

Flashaholic
Joined
Feb 13, 2007
Messages
11,254
Location
Arizona
When the guy's light spills so much light that it lights up road signs over the road only 30 feet ahead, that starts to hurt. Especially when that guy is behind you. I drive a lifted car, so when I see a car that is lighting up all my mirrors AND shining underneath all at the same time, something is wrong.


So I take it you're from the camp who would also jail folks because your perception is that it's very dangerous? :huh:


I live in an area with a lot of factory vehicles equipped with HIDs and I don't even notice them. The OP is in support of BANNING HID technology on cars altogether. He further suggests fining any HID user. In other words, he wants to take away the safety advantage that properly aimed HID's provide because he's occasionally annoyed by blueish tint. The whole objection is irrational.
 

270winchester

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 9, 2004
Messages
3,983
Location
down the road from Pleasure Point.
9004: 1983
9003 (H4): 1971, permitted in USA in 1992.
9005/9006: 1987

That puts something of a dent in your "progression" idea, doesn't it?

doh!!!!

so much for the progression.



Yes. It is non-optical; not a reflector. It's not very specular once it heats up (which takes a very short time after the low beam is powered up), but the rather minor amount of light it reflects (and emits as incandescence) cannot be focused by the reflector and lens.

so when the output in lumens are reported, is that taking into account that shield in the 9003/H4 bulbs?




There is some of the shadowing effect you have in mind with 9004, 9007, and H13. It's not major. The more significant effect from a beam formation standpoint is phantom light from reflection and glow of the de-energized high beam filament lit and heated by the energized nearby low beam filament. It causes glare above horizontal. So does reflection off the bulb supports and bulb envelope base pinch. The latter factors are very well controlled in H13 relative to 9004 and 9007, but adjacent-filament reflection and glow is one of the major factors making it tough to create a low beam with a sharp cutoff and minimal stray light above horizontal.

the only 9004 lights that I have seen that are semi-decent are, surprisingly, on Volkswagon Jettas(I drove one from 2002 for a little bit). It's a shame that their electrical work is so shotty that a lot of them end up having only one working headlight after a while, or have burned out tail lights, and the plastic lens oxidize very quickly even in mild climates like that of California.
 

rushnrockt

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
170
So I take it you're from the camp who would also jail folks because your perception is that it's very dangerous?

I take it you are from the camp that creates false dilemmas and valiantly battles them. Bravo! Encore! This is not a black and white and you do not add anything to your argument by trying to pigeonhole me. There is middle ground between banning HIDs and willy-nilly accepting anything that shines as an acceptable headlight. I acknowledge that the middle ground exists.

To make a more vivid example of the fallacy you are trying to use: you are in favor of any and all lights (1000W HID? Why not!) as long as YOUR perception of them is that they are level.
 

LEDobsession

Enlightened
Joined
Oct 30, 2008
Messages
507
Location
Northern Utah
Hey, I got an idea. Lets all just start using 500 watt commercial flood lights on the front of our vehicles for our forward lighting! :crackup::crackup::crackup::crackup::crackup:
 

chmsam

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
2,241
Location
3rd Stone
Rushnrockt, do not give people ideas like that! A bunch of years ago it wasn't all that rare for people to mount aircraft landing lights on their bumpers. "Oops. Gee, did I forget to turn that off?"

It's not the technology that's available that is the problem, it's the brain dead morons, whether a driver or an engineer.

It also wasn't all that long ago that some people saw no problem with running 85/100+ watt dual beam bulbs in their road cars and sitting behind you on the road with the high beams on. Ow. Today it's the rude fact that very few drivers will dim their high beams and modern lamps are plenty bright.

And please, gimme a baseball bat and a dark alley 'cause I want to meet the schmuck who designed the headlight set up on Saturns and especially the Vue. Never came across a vehicle I hate to have behind me more than one of those. Even with well aimed lights they're annoying as hell to have behind you regardless of what vehicle you're driving.

It's a simple mater of too much emphasis on only thinking about seeing it from how the light helps the driver view the road at night and not enough on how it might be annoying, to say nothing of dangerous for the other guy.

These are reasons why some standardization of design and also some enforcement of the Vehicle & Traffic laws with regard to this would help.
 
Last edited:

-Virgil-

Flashaholic
Joined
Mar 26, 2004
Messages
7,802
so when the output in lumens are reported, is that taking into account that shield in the 9003/H4 bulbs?

Yep, it's actual.

the only 9004 lights that I have seen that are semi-decent are, surprisingly, on Volkswagon Jettas(I drove one from 2002 for a little bit).

Those are 9007s, not 9004s. The last Jettas with 9004 were the 1998 Jetta III models.
 

Stereodude

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 19, 2006
Messages
1,654
Location
US of A
Good grief we've got our own HID Statler and Waldorf here plus a few extra sidekicks for good measure. :sigh:

FWIW, my car came stock with HID's. Worse yet, they're not projectors. :nana: And, to further agitate all of you I've since put HID's in both my fog lamps and in my high beams. So yeah... You guys would just love me. :kiss:

:crackup:
 

rushnrockt

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
170
Good grief we've got our own HID Statler and Waldorf here plus a few extra sidekicks for good measure. :sigh:

FWIW, my car came stock with HID's. Worse yet, they're not projectors. :nana: And, to further agitate all of you I've since put HID's in both my fog lamps and in my high beams. So yeah... You guys would just love me.

So that makes you a Troll. I am sure your fancy lights would do a fine job helping you see the tread of my tires.

Besides trolling, are you actually making any point here? You just put everyone's opinions together with OPs so that you could make an easy argument and ignored the fact that there is a variety of opinions.
 

LukeA

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 3, 2007
Messages
4,399
Location
near Pittsburgh
Hey, I got an idea. Lets all just start using 500 watt commercial flood lights on the front of our vehicles for our forward lighting! :crackup::crackup::crackup::crackup::crackup:

You should be aware that that's basically what you're building :candle:



On a note relevant to the thread, I don't think it's as cut-and-dried as "HIDs are bad." HIDs are brighter than regular halogen headlamps, so when improperly aimed they're more disruptive than normal lamps. But when HIDs are properly aimed, I have no complaints as an oncoming driver.
 

rushnrockt

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
170
On a note relevant to the thread, I don't think it's as cut-and-dried as "HIDs are bad." HIDs are brighter than regular halogen headlamps, so when improperly aimed they're more disruptive than normal lamps. But when HIDs are properly aimed, I have no complaints as an oncoming driver.

You are not allowed to have an in-between opinion per Don Quixote above :) It's either for or against, otherwise there are no windmills to battle!
 

Latest posts

Top