Best Malkoff drop-in for a CQB weapon light?

[Justin Case]

I think I really want a real flood light (or even a diffuser). I expect any self defense situation to be the opposite of slow and deliberate searching. I expect the light to be used in quick flashes, rather than a constant-on sweep, and when the light is on I want to light up half of the room instantly. I want instant target recognition, even if a threat exists 50 degrees off the light's center.

You need to be careful about what you assume to be how a self defense situation will unfold. It will be what it is, not necessarily what you want it to be. Even in an in-extremis situation, your tactics can comprise both deliberate and fast clearing. If you are clearing to escape an area, for example, are you really going to just blast forward when you hear gunfire and commotion in the next unknown area ahead?

At 50 degrees off-axis, your vision is poor. What you'll see is either movement or an object that doesn't belong. A flood, IMO, isn't going to help in actual recognition until you turn your head. In that case, you can also simply turn your non-flood flashlight onto the area of interest. That said, of course you need some level of side lighting to be able to at least illuminate off-axis "stuff". IMO, a standard M60 has plenty of spill for that.

Also, you simply can't process all of the information instantaneously if you think you are going to visually inspect a large room volume at once. That's why the flood sounds good only in theory. Your solo dynamic clear ought to be a fast version of a deliberate clear, with fast pieing, etc. Taking in half a room at once means you are exposed to half the room also. It is very doubtful that you can OODA loop that volume fast enough to beat getting shot by someone who only has to watch the small volume where you are standing. It's not a foot race where the winner has the fastest time. The winner is the one who survives with the least negative impact to himself and his loved ones. If you are going to do a solo dynamic clear, you are by necessity going to have to bypass or give at most cursory attention to most areas. I assume that your envisioned mission is rescue/retrieval of a child or other loved one sleeping in a different room. Again, a flood is not going to really help.

For small areas like hallways, use bounced lighting to minimize dazzling of the vision. Don't just shine the light straight down the hall.

I can envision a benefit of a flood in terms of using it in a deceptive way to mask where the search is coming from. The brighter side spill of the flood may allow you to see the area of interest more effectively while using brief, angled bursts. But, you can do this with an M60 with a diffuser, if you need it, while retaining the longer throw capability of the M60. Of course, everything has an upside and a downside. A diffuser adds bulk and cost and you have to either flip the diffuser lens off or on, which you may forget to do (or don't have time).

 

[Policetacteam]

+1 Very well put! :rock:

 

[N/Apower]

My shooting is outdoors. I run the meanest thing I can in my 6P. That being said, I will take a lumen hit for the warmer LED's as they allow me actually MORE throw because it doesn't "grey out" like the "white" LED's do. It allows better depth perception and color recognition. My 180 lumen M60W is better at 100m than my 230 lumen M60 was.

 

[N/Apower]

You need to be careful about what you assume to be how a self defense situation will unfold. It will be what it is, not necessarily what you want it to be. Even in an in-extremis situation, your tactics can comprise both deliberate and fast clearing. If you are clearing to escape an area, for example, are you really going to just blast forward when you hear gunfire and commotion in the next unknown area ahead?

At 50 degrees off-axis, your vision is poor. What you'll see is either movement or an object that doesn't belong. A flood, IMO, isn't going to help in actual recognition until you turn your head. In that case, you can also simply turn your non-flood flashlight onto the area of interest. That said, of course you need some level of side lighting to be able to at least illuminate off-axis "stuff". IMO, a standard M60 has plenty of spill for that.

Also, you simply can't process all of the information instantaneously if you think you are going to visually inspect a large room volume at once. That's why the flood sounds good only in theory. Your solo dynamic clear ought to be a fast version of a deliberate clear, with fast pieing, etc. Taking in half a room at once means you are exposed to half the room also. It is very doubtful that you can OODA loop that volume fast enough to beat getting shot by someone who only has to watch the small volume where you are standing. It's not a foot race where the winner has the fastest time. The winner is the one who survives with the least negative impact to himself and his loved ones. If you are going to do a solo dynamic clear, you are by necessity going to have to bypass or give at most cursory attention to most areas. I assume that your envisioned mission is rescue/retrieval of a child or other loved one sleeping in a different room. Again, a flood is not going to really help.

For small areas like hallways, use bounced lighting to minimize dazzling of the vision. Don't just shine the light straight down the hall.

I can envision a benefit of a flood in terms of using it in a deceptive way to mask where the search is coming from. The brighter side spill of the flood may allow you to see the area of interest more effectively while using brief, angled bursts. But, you can do this with an M60 with a diffuser, if you need it, while retaining the longer throw capability of the M60. Of course, everything has an upside and a downside. A diffuser adds bulk and cost and you have to either flip the diffuser lens off or on, which you may forget to do (or don't have time).

We are human beings. We evolved (or were created) to function optimally (mentally and physically) in certain conditions. Daylight is our optimal "zone". The closer you get to daylight, the better you will perform. To me, this means as much flood (to simulate daylight) as you can get without the risk of glare.

 

[MrGman]

"We are human beings. We evolved (or were created) to function optimally (mentally and physically) in certain conditions. Daylight is our optimal "zone". The closer you get to daylight, the better you will perform. To me, this means as much flood (to simulate daylight) as you can get without the risk of glare. "

Although true, not necessarily relevant to a tactical situation. the operator should be in coming from a position of lowest light (dark as possible) and putting harsh light on the target to keep the target disoriented and off balance. Not trying to make it a nice well lighted environment so everyone can see read their library books.

The original M60 style LED's optic (warm or otherwise) has a very good combination of throw with smooth transition to spill.

 

[Justin Case]

We are human beings. We evolved (or were created) to function optimally (mentally and physically) in certain conditions. Daylight is our optimal "zone". The closer you get to daylight, the better you will perform. To me, this means as much flood (to simulate daylight) as you can get without the risk of glare.

You really need to analyze and understand your tactics by viewing them from the opponent's point of view.

If it is simulated day light that you want, just turn on the room lights.

Full day light and photopic vision may be optimal in terms of visual acuity, but it certainly is not necessarily so in terms of self-defense tactics.

 

[smg]

Forgive me if this sounds argumentative. I only write it with the most friendly, debating intent.

You need to be careful about what you assume to be how a self defense situation will unfold. It will be what it is, not necessarily what you want it to be. Even in an in-extremis situation, your tactics can comprise both deliberate and fast clearing.

Perhaps I misunderstood you initially. I thought your recommendation was for a "slow (deliberate) search". I'm still a bit unclear…
The assumptions I make about an emergency, self defense situation are that nothing will work to my advantage. I will have less time than necessary to do any tasks and equipment failure is likely. Which of my assumptions did you think were unreasonable? <-I mean from anywhere in this thread.
I am trying to allow myself the ability to make very quick visual assessments of a room rather than forcing myself to need to do a slow, deliberate search. If the time allows, I could always slow it down and be more deliberate with a flood light.

If you are clearing to escape an area, for example, are you really going to just blast forward when you hear gunfire and commotion in the next unknown area ahead?

Certainly not. However, I want the ability to light a large portion of a room instantly, rather than moving a narrower beam around to cover the same area.

At 50 degrees off-axis, your vision is poor. What you'll see is either movement or an object that doesn't belong. A flood, IMO, isn't going to help in actual recognition until you turn your head.

I know my house and the items within it very well. With a 1/10th of a second flash of light, I think I could tell you if there is anything "out of place" in any of the rooms. I don't need to have great vision off-axis nor do I need to focus on someone lurking off to the side. I live alone. Therefore, "recognition of a threat" for me means "ANYBODY in the house besides me". If I can spot "either movement or an object that doesn't belong" (from your quote), then that is exactly what I am looking for.
NOTE: I would not, nor am I advocating, engaging a target without at least one of two things (i.e. "identifying" the target without focusing on the threat): 1. a clearly identified threat – example: viewing a firearm pointed in my direction during a brief flash of light. OR 2. a reasonable suspicion that I am facing a real threat – example: hearing and seeing someone charging at me, in the dark. Another example could be gunfire in my house. No, that's not a typical Saturday night, so I can claim that there is a real threat in my house without being able to identify the perp in a line-up

In that case, you can also simply turn your non-flood flashlight onto the area of interest.

That doesn't sit well with me. You brought up the OODA loop later in your post. If it takes me 0.5 seconds longer to scan my light by moving it, I have taken 0.5 sec longer to complete that portion of Observing. That is a half second where I could have been Deciding and Acting, and that is what a threat will be doing with that half second of time.

Also, you simply can't process all of the information instantaneously if you think you are going to visually inspect a large room volume at once.

I disagree. Maybe I should give you some room dimensions so we are on the same page. My largest room is about 30x14 feet. I know its contents intimately and I could recognize an object larger than a basketball that didn't belong there with only a momentary flash of light – a person would be pretty easy, except for one small hiding space.

Your solo dynamic clear ought to be a fast version of a deliberate clear, with fast pieing, etc.

Are you saying that having a narrower beam, which takes longer to scan the same space, is actually better than a single beam that will illuminate a larger portion without scanning?
Again, it seems that I just don't understand what advantage you are claiming that a narrower light has.

Taking in half a room at once means you are exposed to half the room also.

I don't really think you typically have half the room to your back, but I am the one who used the term "half of the room". If I enter a room through a doorway, I have 99% of the room ahead of me. If I am in the middle of a room, it would only be for a brief second as I am moving through it.

It is very doubtful that you can OODA loop that volume fast enough to beat getting shot by someone who only has to watch the small volume where you are standing.

I feel like discussing the OODA loop kinda proves my point. I want my light to be turned on for only momentary flashes, rather than longer scans or sweeps that a non-flood beam requires; a half second of illumination is much too long. The longer my light stays on, the longer I am perfect target. Flash and move! It is during that flash that I want to be able to absorb visual information from the widest range possible.

If you are going to do a solo dynamic clear, you are by necessity going to have to bypass or give at most cursory attention to most areas.

I do not see myself doing a full, thorough clear of my house (all rooms, down to the basement/garage, all hiding spaces, etc.). If there is a threat coming to get me, then I don't need to go searching. If the threat is not actively seeking to harm me, then I have time to get back to my cell phone and call the people who are much better at clearing houses.

I assume that your envisioned mission is rescue/retrieval of a child or other loved one sleeping in a different room. Again, a flood is not going to really help.

Most often, I am using my rifle to run the rifle course, just because it's fun. I live alone, so I do not have to worry about the rescue of a child or a loved one. However, crazy people will always do crazy things. In my house, I never want to be left at the hands of a crazy drugged up thief or group of thieves.

I am not trying to be difficult; I hope it doesn't sound that way. I think I have addressed most of your points. Have I made any sense? Do you still disagree or do you have any other reasons why the narrower field of view (non-flood light) is better?

 

[SunStar]

In my limited experience of using weapon mounted lights or defensive hand-helds, I've found that a balance of flood and throw are best for myself for indoor room clearing.

The X200A which is all throw was distracting to me. The beam actually drew my attention to the beam itself rather than the peripheral objects in the room. It also drew my aim somewhat and the fact that the beam was not in line with my sights was very distracting. The floody X200B, however is very nice and softly illuminates everything in the room - ahead and peripherally. My attention remains on the front sight as I scan the room. The problem that I have encountered with flood beams indoors is when utilizing objects for cover or carefully moving about (walls, counters, furniture, rounding a corner / entry way, etc.), I have found that I receive a great amount of bounce back from the flood that actually partially restricts my vision forward. It also can distort night adapted vision. So for my use, all flood is not ideal either. I prefer a beam with good punch forward with large hot spot and a softer flood about the hot spot. There is enought bounce from the large hot spot to light up most rooms anyway. The softer surrounding flood may still create bounce back when rounding corners or using objects for cover, but its not so much that the operator himself is blinded.

I suspect that each of us have different limiations visually according to how good we see (20/10 v. 20/40), peripheral capability, pupil dilation, etc. and what is best for one is not the best for another.

Whatever beam profile one prefers, practice is warranted to optimize tactics accordingly. YMMV...

 

[Policetacteam]

Probably one of the better threads relating to tactics on this forum! I think, in a nutshell, Sunstar has summed it up very simply. What works for one may not work for another. This goes not only for tactics but equipment as well! I think everyone here has some very solid ideas and I have a hard time disagreeing with any of them.

 

[NoFair]

I'd go for a M60W and add a diffuser. Best of both worlds and the added size of a diffuser is no problem in this situation.

I prefer something not too throwy inside since the spot is distractingly bright while not offering much in usefulness indoors.

A M60W will be more than bright enough and the diffuser makes it very good at close range.

I'm so old we had Maglights on MP5s while I was in the army Some got better lights, but mostly the very SF guys

 

[smg]

...The problem that I have encountered with flood beams indoors is when utilizing objects for cover or carefully moving about (walls, counters, furniture, rounding a corner / entry way, etc.), I have found that I receive a great amount of bounce back from the flood that actually partially restricts my vision forward. It also can distort night adapted vision. So for my use, all flood is not ideal either...

I suspect that each of us have different limiations visually according to how good we see (20/10 v. 20/40), peripheral capability, pupil dilation, etc. and what is best for one is not the best for another.

Whatever beam profile one prefers, practice is warranted to optimize tactics accordingly. YMMV...

I am concerned with the bounce-back light as well. I don't really know how wide the flood beam is on the Malkoff F lights, so that is a question I can't answer.
I totally agree with your last two points as well!

I'd go for a M60W and add a diffuser. Best of both worlds and the added size of a diffuser is no problem in this situation.

I prefer something not too throwy inside since the spot is distractingly bright while not offering much in usefulness indoors.

A M60W will be more than bright enough and the diffuser makes it very good at close range.

I'm so old we had Maglights on MP5s while I was in the army Some got better lights, but mostly the very SF guys

Have you used the Surefire FM34 beam diffuser?? Does the diffuser shrink the overall width of the light output (measured from edge to edge), because it has a ring that sticks out in front of the light's bezel??

Can anyone comment on how the light would be smoothed using an FM34 compared to using the M60WF drop-in?? Maybe I am now splitting hairs here. I have read that the M60F gives almost no hotspot, but I don't know the results when using the diffuser. I'm intrigued.

Lastly, how much light output will I lose when using the FM34? Can we assume that the 170 bulb-lumen M60W produces 140-150 lumens OTF?... Would the addition of the FM34 then reduce output to 130? ...90? ...worse?

I don't think I want anything near 200 lumens, but I also don't think I want to drop much below 100 lumens (especially when considering the flood output).

P.S. I should have put this in my original post but....
I seem to have much better low-light vision than most people I know. I spot tiny things in the dark that others cannot see even when it has been pointed out (like a fruit fly in someone's drink, in a very dimly lit bar once - I even lit it up with my E01 and then only 1 out of 3 people could see it). At the other end of the spectrum, I am blinded quite easily in full sunlight or by a flash of light out of full darkness.

 

[N/Apower]

"We are human beings. We evolved (or were created) to function optimally (mentally and physically) in certain conditions. Daylight is our optimal "zone". The closer you get to daylight, the better you will perform. To me, this means as much flood (to simulate daylight) as you can get without the risk of glare. "

Although true, not necessarily relevant to a tactical situation. the operator should be in coming from a position of lowest light (dark as possible) and putting harsh light on the target to keep the target disoriented and off balance. Not trying to make it a nice well lighted environment so everyone can see read their library books.

The original M60 style LED's optic (warm or otherwise) has a very good combination of throw with smooth transition to spill.

+1, I was simply stating that someone would perform OPTIMALLY with the most spill (to a point). That someone could be you and/or the BG!

 

[Justin Case]

I don't have an FM34. All I have are the very old style Butler Creek-derived SureFire Fxx wide angle beamshapers. I can test that on an M30 and tell you what I perceive and measure. I can tell you right now without any measurement that you will get a reduction in hot spot lux and an increase in spill lux. That's a given if you spread the light more uniformly, even without any transmission loss from the diffuser.

 

[Mdinana]

Personally, I think a Malkoff would be overkill. I have a SF 6PLED on my shotgun, and several times (when I've woken up in the middle of the night for various reasons), gotten up and practiced a dry "walk through" in the middle of the night. The light coming on is disorienting to me, even though I expect it. Lots of bounce off the ceiling and walls, even though they're a burnt-orange color (it's a rental, I swear I didnt' choose the color). I can imagine that with white walls, 200+ lumens will NOT help you either for that 1/2 second when you blind yourself.

You say you already have a SF 6P. I'd suggest you go to bed one night, set your alarm, and when you wake up, the first thing you do is turn on that light. See how good/bad it works for you when your eyes are completely adapted. You might be suprised at how much brighter it seems versus what you expect.

 

[NoFair]

Have you used the Surefire FM34 beam diffuser?? Does the diffuser shrink the overall width of the light output (measured from edge to edge), because it has a ring that sticks out in front of the light's bezel??

Yes, it does reduce the width a bit. Still worth it IMO. Just tried in the basement with a C2.

Can anyone comment on how the light would be smoothed using an FM34 compared to using the M60WF drop-in?? Maybe I am now splitting hairs here. I have read that the M60F gives almost no hotspot, but I don't know the results when using the diffuser. I'm intrigued.

Here is a post with pics of a Gladius using a FM34:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1440377&postcount=7


Other post with beamshots:
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showpost.php?p=2171547&postcount=177

couldn't find any with a Malkoff..

 

[SunStar]

Have you used the Surefire FM34 beam diffuser?? Does the diffuser shrink the overall width of the light output (measured from edge to edge), because it has a ring that sticks out in front of the light's bezel??

Can anyone comment on how the light would be smoothed using an FM34 compared to using the M60WF drop-in?? Maybe I am now splitting hairs here. I have read that the M60F gives almost no hotspot, but I don't know the results when using the diffuser. I'm intrigued.

Lastly, how much light output will I lose when using the FM34? Can we assume that the 170 bulb-lumen M60W produces 140-150 lumens OTF?... Would the addition of the FM34 then reduce output to 130? ...90? ...worse?

I use an FM64 on a KL3 for general use. The KL3 is almost all spot and very throwy. The FM64 diffuses all hotspots with a very even, soft flood beam. There are no rings even with the filter in front of the bezel head about 0.25" and the edges of the beam softly fade with no distinct boundaries. The FM filter does add bulk but for utility its very useful. The KL3 / FM64 completely lights up a room with no distinct beam or hotspot hitting the walls. The room is simply "lit". However, throw is nil when using the filter. I use this setup for close up work (utility) and for power outages - there is nothing better for a tailstand ceiling bounce - very easy on the eyes.

Output is reduced some but not dramatically (to my eyes). It's more of a "dispersion" of light. I am confident with over 200 lumens being diffused, one would have more than enough light to clear a room and distort Tango's night vision. I can't directly look at the KL3 / FM64 in the day time without seeing spots for minutes after. I get the same results when utilizing the FM64 on my U2 at 100 lumens. It's very similar to the X200B only more "diffused" or soft and very blinding when looking at the business end.

For me... if I'm going to deal with the bulk of the FM filter, I would select a "throwy" beam profile so that I get the utility of both throw and flood - rather than flood and more flood. So my choice would be M60 / FM34 or M60W / FM34... but that's just me.

 

[Chrontius]

I can take Malkoff M60-diffuser beamshots tonight once it's dark - the M60-FM34 is a favorite combination of mine.

Methinks the M60's spot would be plenty enough to render someone quite night-blind in a good flash; I've only ever had real issues with bounceback when the light was within a meter of the surface being illuminated.

I can also state that I never noticed the FM34 narrowing the spill angle in actual use, when the filter was retracted.

 

[Grog]

Ideally, I'd like to go a couple months between battery changes - maybe I'm just being cheap The reason I want long battery life is not so much to save on batteries, but for the assurance that I have battery power left if the light ever needed to be used in a real defensive situation. I guess 1.5 hours is a good, long time to be using a light.

Hmmmm, thought I just replied but it didn't show up....anyway....


My advise is when you get home from having "fun", put a fresh set iof batteries in the light for possible serious use. You can always put the used batteries back in for "fun" stuff again.

 

[MrGman]

Yeah SMG your confusing two different issues, run time and storage time. You can put rechargeables in there for your play time and when you come home, throw those on the charge and put in a set of primaries to have sitting there for that "moment of need" that may show up 1 month or 1 year later.

If you get the solarforce cell and one extension tube, 3 primaries will have a long shelf life and longer run time should you need to run for 2 hours on that set of batteries.

Then when you know you are going out to play for the night, throw in 2X17500's, When you are done, put those on the charger and put the 3 CR 123's that never got used back in. So what's the problem?

 

[NoFair]

I can take Malkoff M60-diffuser beamshots tonight once it's dark - the M60-FM34 is a favorite combination of mine.

Methinks the M60's spot would be plenty enough to render someone quite night-blind in a good flash; I've only ever had real issues with bounceback when the light was within a meter of the surface being illuminated.

I can also state that I never noticed the FM34 narrowing the spill angle in actual use, when the filter was retracted.

The angle is only reduced very very little when it is flipped up, not of any practical importance Tried it since he asked.

I don't see any need for a M60F if you plan on getting a diffuser, the nice thing with the normal narrower beam drop-ins is that you can choose between throw and flood when having a diffuser fitted. The M60F would be flood and a bit more flood.. In use with a rifle the diffuser isn't in the way and the added bulk isn't of any disadvantage.

In regards to using rechargeables: My li-ions are still within 90% capacity after a year in storage so rechargeables aren't much of an issue. The M60 drop ins from Malkoff all work nicely with both 2-3 normal cr123s or 2 Li-ions. Output is reduced on a single Li-ion.

Sverre