Commandments foundation of U.S. law?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Quickbeam

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 19, 2001
Messages
4,329
Location
FlashlightReviews.com
I believe the folks getting hung up on the "letter of the law" are failing to comprehend or are conveniently ignoring the "spirit of the law" which actually holds greater value.

The state cannot sponsor a religion. By having religious artifacts/images/monuments in a publicly owned building (aka state owned building) the state is indirectly sponsoring a religion. I think it is fairly reasonable to figure that it is based upon this spirit of the law that the supreme court judge made his decision that the monument must be removed.

One such argument could go as follows:

In essence, placing a religious monument in a state owned building is potentially turning it into a place of worship. (this is actually fairly well backed up by all the protesters who were praying in front of the monument...). The building is maintained by the taxpayer's money, which BY LAW everyone must pay. Since the law states that, "...nor to pay any tithes, taxes, or other rate for building or repairing any place of worship" it becomes a violation of the law for the monument to be there.

My last 2¢ on the matter.
 

RevDavid

Enlightened
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
Messages
464
Location
Colorado Front Range
There are two parallel truths in this argument... first that the basis of our law is God's Law. All you have to do is look at the writings of those who established our laws in the beginning to understand that.
As for the other truth, it is the acknowledgement that all the authority of our government and our legal system has its origin in the will of God. In other words, our legislators and judges do not rule us in their own authority, but in God-granted authority. It is an acknowledgement that our highest judges still derive their authority to judge from a higher authority, and is the best protection we have from tyranny. No one who believes that they answer to God would dare to oppress the people, and Justice Moore is a man who was moved by such motives. It was his desire to acknowledge that he had no inherent authority, but only derived authority from above... that he was not the final arbiter, but would himself give an account one day of his own judgement of all matters. It was out of humility, not self-will that Justice Moore had this monument placed on public display. It was his declaration to everyone that he was accountable, and that they could hold him to it. It is a terrible shame that we don't have lots more men like that leading our nation, and sitting on the bench in our courts.

David <><
 

Tomas

Banned
Joined
Jun 19, 2002
Messages
2,128
Location
Seattle, WA area
(And you know Moore was really thinking those thoughts how? I don't believe he was. In any case, he continues to parade himself in front of the public for his own aggrandizement. Listen to his words, watch his actions. Don't read into him your own finer thoughts and motivations. Step back and watch him strut and posture ... A banty rooster proclaiming his territory.)
 

LightofMine

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Aug 2, 2003
Messages
101
Location
South Carolina
One can curse and use as vile a language as they want to in public and the liberals will defend that as freedom of speech. Try to pray in public and they want to stop you. They use separation of church and state as their reason but the truth is they are anti anything that acknowledges god. You can't even start a High School football game with prayer anymore. Say god damn all you want but don't dare say praise god.

I am 100 percent convinced there is a God. It takes zero faith for me to believe God is real. As for pushing religion down someone's throat, I could care less if you believe in God or not. The Ten Commandments are respected by Christianity, Judaism and Islam, the world's three major religions. That is over 2 billion people. Removing the Ten Commandments is an attack on the belief in God and separation of church and state is nothing but a screen for them to hid behind.

James
Oh, I added another LED flashlight to my collection today. A Brinkmann, cheap but dependable.
 

DavidW

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 2, 2000
Messages
1,793
Location
Central Florida
I entered this thread with trepidation. I thought I would have to close it due to flaming and/or baiting. I was wrong. Please keep it that way. I say this because religion and politics is an eternal argument. It has raged long before you or I were born. And it will continue long after we pass.

Please continue to keep this argument impersonal.

Now. Intertwining with the current argument. Should we remove religous symbols from the same court that refused to hear this case? The Supreme Court.
 

DavidW

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 2, 2000
Messages
1,793
Location
Central Florida
And when the court ordered the monument removed, did it use it's power based on any law? Any case law?
 

tsg68

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 1, 2003
Messages
1,248
Location
Breukelen, NY established 1646
One only needs to look at the newly forming Iraq to see what religious factionalism and majority rule mentality can do to disrupt a democratic cause. Some of my ancestors came to this land to flee religious persecution following the Dutch reform. I am a Christian, but I don't believe that religion has a place in the governing of people, especially when we try to convince the world that we've created a society that practices religious tolerance and freedom to practice what we believe without fear of persecution, and even more importantly fear of oppression from the prevailent majority denomination. Our enemies see this and use our mixed, hipocritical signals as fuel against us.

TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

DavidW

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 2, 2000
Messages
1,793
Location
Central Florida
Good points to consider, TSG.

My questions still stand.

Should we remove religous symbols from the same court that refused to hear this case? The Supreme Court.

And did the court that ordered the monument removed, do so based on any law?
 

RevDavid

Enlightened
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
Messages
464
Location
Colorado Front Range
Actually, I did not need to attribute anything to Justice Moore on my own... I have heard him interviewed on this issue a few times. I am also very careful not to draw any assumptions about those who oppose Justice Moore. I think it is possible for people of good conscience and character to be on either side of this issue.
As for me, I support Justice Moore.

David <><
 

DavidW

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 2, 2000
Messages
1,793
Location
Central Florida
I don't care what anyone's side is.

I have 2 legal questions that I think are very pertinent to this argument that I haven't seen considered.

Should we remove religous symbols from the same court that refused to hear this case? The Supreme Court.

And did the court that ordered the monument removed, do so based on any law? (There has to be printed ruling out there somewhere.)
 

tsg68

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 1, 2003
Messages
1,248
Location
Breukelen, NY established 1646
Sure David, I don't need to swear on a Bible to be held to the truth. I don't need motto's on currency either to make them worth their value. I think that folks should be as free from dogma as possible in their publicly owned venues. I wouldn't go as far as altering the wording of historical document though, those hold far greater meaning to the whole in their original formats. If your beliefs are strong enough, the whole world should be your house of worship and mere tangible artifacts of such should hold very little meaning. You carry your faiths wherever you go, to me that's enough, besides you have a right to adorn yourself or your property or your communally held property however you see fit, right? You have a right to profess your beliefs aloud in public or private forum. How much more do people need or are they just hung up on symbolism?

TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

DavidW

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 2, 2000
Messages
1,793
Location
Central Florida
TSG, not sure which David you're replying to.

Either way my questions remain unanswered.

Again. I have 2 legal questions that I think are very pertinent to this argument that I haven't seen considered.

Should we remove religous symbols from the same court that refused to hear this case? The Supreme Court. (If you were answering me then go have them removed from the Supreme Court. Muslims already tried.)

And did the court that ordered the monument removed, do so based on any law? (There has to be printed ruling out there somewhere.)
 

Tomas

Banned
Joined
Jun 19, 2002
Messages
2,128
Location
Seattle, WA area
David, according to the 50 page court decision, they believe they did base it on law and constitutional isues. IANAL so I cannot agree or disagree with that in any meaningful way.

When the US Supreme Court refuses to hear any case it is commonly accepted as agreeing with the decision already made by the lower court or that there is not an issue of sufficient standing to cause them to second-guess the lower courts.

As to the 'religious symbols' in or on the US Supreme Court Building, are they evenly balanced? Do they promote one specific religion over another? Do they exclude other religions?

I don't know, I've not seen the building, nor sufficient pictures of it's details to make any sort of off-the-wall guess at an answer. Even then, it would be only my opinion.

This is, of course, not the first time Moore has been in this sort of battle. As a lower court judge he conducted prayer sessions and had the Protestant Ten Commandments on the wall of his courtroom and was given a higher court order to cease in about 1996. (Appealed.)

When he became Chief Justice for Alabama, he had the 5300 pound monument placed in the rotunda as an official act of his position as Chief Justice in the state and therefore leaseholder of the building according to his lawyer.

Even just the fact that he did not notify his fellow justices, but only the TV crew of a televangelist friend of his intentions (so they could tape it and sell copies of the tapes to support their ministry - and his own pride) makes him sound more like a small, petty man "getting even" with the State Supreme Court that had told him to remove the commandments from the wall of his courtroom.

T_sig6.gif
 

Tomas

Banned
Joined
Jun 19, 2002
Messages
2,128
Location
Seattle, WA area
OK, for both Davids:

A bit more detail ...

Moore installed the 5,280 pound monument after the building closed on the night of July 31, 2001. He did so without conferring with the other eight justices. He was acting, his attorney claimed, in his authority as leaseholder of the building (he was "Chief Justice").

But he did tell Florida television evangelist D. James Kennedy, who had a crew from his Coral Ridge Ministries film the installation and offered videotapes of it for a donation of $19. Moore has appeared numerous times on Kennedy's national syndicated religious television show.

"I'm the highest legal authority in the state," Moore declared in a recent interview with a reporter from the Los Angeles Times, "and I wanted it (the Commandments monument) there.

This is not the first time Moore has made news practicing religion in his public courtroom ...

April 9, 1997

MONTGOMERY, AL -- Judge Roy Moore displays a plaque of the Ten Commandments in his courtroom and opens sessions with prayer

And the judge, a Baptist whose fight to keep religion in his courtroom has inspired a national rally, invites others to pray with him -- as long as they're not Muslims, Hindus or Buddhists.

"They do not acknowledge the God of the holy Bible on which this country was founded," Moore says.

Tens of thousands are expected to attend a rally at the Alabama Capitol on Saturday to show their support for Moore, including national conservative leaders like Ralph Reed of the Christian Coalition and the Rev. Don Wildmon of the American Family Association.

The judge has won wide support from conservative groups as he appeals orders for him to stop opening court sessions with prayer and to remove or alter the wooden plaque of the Ten Commandments that hangs behind his bench and has since at least 1995.

Moore contends the First Amendment gives him the right to practice Christianity in his Etowah County Circuit courtroom.

Not all are aware that Moore draws a firm line against inviting anyone outside the Judeo-Christian tradition to conduct the prayers in his courtroom.

"My duty under the Constitution is to acknowledge the Judeo-Christian God," not the gods of other faiths, Moore said. "We are not a nation founded upon the Hindu god or Buddha."

Some of the judge's supporters were troubled that Moore was insisting on his own religious freedom but limiting its practice to one faith only.

"My personal view is that our founding fathers would have permitted prayer from other denominations," said former U.S. Sen. Jeremiah Denton, who will lead the Pledge of Allegiance at Saturday's rally.

Gov. Fob James, who has vowed to call out the National Guard to defend Moore's beliefs if necessary, said he doesn't think Moore is being intolerant of non-Christians by refusing to invite them to pray in his court.

"I think that's his call," said James, a rally speaker.

The Anti-Defamation League of B'nai Brith, which has filed a brief opposing Moore's side in the lawsuit, is concerned that the judge appears to be endorsing a specific religion to the exclusion of others, said Jay Kaiman of the ADL's Southeast regional office in Atlanta.

"If I had a problem ... and I was in front of Judge Moore -- and he knew what I did for a living and he knew my faith -- I would feel that would bias his attitude," said Kaiman, who is Jewish.

============

January 27, 1998 -- Alabama High Court Dismisses Two Suits Over Ten Commandments on Technical Grounds

MONTGOMERY, AL -- In a closely watched case pitting church against state, the Alabama Supreme Court has dismissed a lawsuit filed by Gov. Fob James over the Ten Commandments, telling the governor in clear terms: Thou shalt not embroil this court in politics.

At the same time, Reuters reports, the court also dismissed a suit by the American Civil Liberties Union, which contended that the state's Chief Justice had the authority to order Circuit Judge Roy Moore of Etowah County to stop holding courtroom prayers and remove the Ten Commandments, which are posted on his courtroom wall.

The decision overturns a ruling by Circuit Judge Charles Price in November that the Ten Commandments and Moore's practice of inviting local clergy to his courtroom for prayers violated the U.S. Constitution, which prohibits the government from establishing a religion.

Moore appealed that decision to the state Supreme Court, which had allowed Moore to continue displaying the Ten Commandments in the meantime. The governor has threatened to send the National Guard to Gadsden to prevent removal of the Ten Commandments.

The Supreme Court's decision, while based on technical grounds, allows Moore to continue displaying the Ten Commandments behind his bench and conducting prayers prior to jury sessions. Both sides, according to The Associated Press, expressed dissatisfaction that the merits of the case remained undecided.

"This is pretty anti-climatic since the court did not get to the constitutional issues involved," said Olivia Turner, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Alabama, which had asked the Supreme Court to direct Chief Justice Perry Hooper Sr. to order Moore to stop practicing his faith in court.

============

T_sig6.gif
 

DavidW

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 2, 2000
Messages
1,793
Location
Central Florida
The religious symbol is Moses holding the 10 commandments.

I'd bet the current SCOTUS holds the record for refusing to hear cases.

You say the State Supreme Court told him to removed the commandments. But did they order him to? I'd like see the ruling. If anyone finds a link, please post it here.
 

DavidW

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 2, 2000
Messages
1,793
Location
Central Florida
Leaves a lot of questions. A couple I think of right now is where did he hold prayer meetings? In the courtroom or in his chambers? While court was in session or on his own time?
 

RevDavid

Enlightened
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
Messages
464
Location
Colorado Front Range
As for the legal issues, there were a lot of people questioning whether a federal district court judge has the authority to dictate anything to a state supreme court. But if the state of Alabama accepts this, and it appears they have already done so, then it is now a moot point.
IMO, the state of Alabama could have refused to comply with the district court and then the case would probably have had to move to the federal Supreme Court. It would have made an interesting case on state's rights.
David <><
 

Tomas

Banned
Joined
Jun 19, 2002
Messages
2,128
Location
Seattle, WA area
1) My error - "Moore has defied the order of State District Judge Charles Price of Montgomery to remove a homemade plaque of the Ten Commandments from a wall of his courtroom." A google search might find more on the details of what happened and when.

2) His court sessions were oppened with prayer, often lead by invited Baptist ministers, if not, then by the judge himself.

If the "All Rise! This Court is in session, the honorable Judge Roy Moore, presiding. Be seated." came before the judge or a minister said "Let us bow our heads for a moment of prayer" it was while the court was in session. If it was done before the judge entered the courtroom, how could he have lead the prayers on those occasions when he did? Bottom line, "I dunno, I wasn't there"

If he's in the courtroom and wearing his robes, he's on gov'mint time, not his own. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

This whole thing leaves lots of questions, David. For some reason, whether one supports Moore's actions or not, he strikes me a a petty, grandstanding, power hungry, grudge bearing, make-up-the-rules-to-suit little man who may turn out to be one of US Christianity's demons rather than angels ... I still think he's more in it for Judge Roy Bean, I mean Moore than for anything else. <=== OPINION. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

T_sig6.gif
 

brightnorm

Flashaholic
Joined
Oct 13, 2001
Messages
7,160
[ QUOTE ]
tsg68 said:
...If your beliefs are strong enough, the whole world should be your house of worship and mere tangible artifacts of such should hold very little meaning. You carry your faiths wherever you go, to me that's enough, besides you have a right to adorn yourself or your property or your communally held property however you see fit, right? You have a right to profess your beliefs aloud in public or private forum. How much more do people need or are they just hung up on symbolism?

TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Eloquently said.

Brightnorm
 

Tomas

Banned
Joined
Jun 19, 2002
Messages
2,128
Location
Seattle, WA area
"The religious symbol is Moses holding the 10 commandments."

Good Jewish and Christian symbolism there, and even to other religions (including Islam) a recognized symbol of the 'bringing of Laws' to humanity.

Many other religions also have the myth or symbol of the 'Lawgiver' in their teachings. Even if it were not the Moses recognised in Jewish, Christian, and Islamic teaching, the symbolism would be recognizable to most, and certainly the 'idea' of lawgiver would fit in quite well.

While you, David, may see Moses as a Christian symbol, in reality he's recognized by the top three religions as a bringer of law.

Apt symbolism and not a part of one faith only. Widely shared.

Note that the ten commandments on the monument are not as widely shared, and that particular re-write of them is from the Protestant-only King James Bible. The Jewish and even Catholic versions read differently.

I'm not certain, it's been too long since I read it, but I don't recall the 'ten commandments' as being preserved in the Qur'an (koran) as a single set piece as delivered by Moses, a recognized prophet, but his teachings are included in the Shari'ah (holy law) of Islam.

Keep Moses. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

T_sig6.gif
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top