Info on recharging

10milg29

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Aug 1, 2007
Messages
34
I'm still a noob, so bear with me...

Upon advice from a member on this board, I purchased a Lumens Factory HO-4 bulb for use with the 17670 battery and AW-139 charger I bought. I hear some of you say that this is not the best charger due to overcharging or something to that effect. Is there a better charger out there for my purpose?

Second, I hear some people say to pull the batteries early and recharge them so they last longer. Can someone validate this? If true, how do you choose when to pull the batteries? I know my combo is rated at 65 minutes, yet there is no way I can time that.

Thanks again,
Jon
 
Hi Jon,

Welcome To CPF!

It is said that the AW/UltraFire-139 charger will continue to trickle charge after the light turns green.This can be dangerous with un-protected lithium ion batteries as it can cause them to "vent with flame".At the very least it will shorten the battery life.If you are using protected battery this is less of concern as the batteries internal circuitry should cut off the charge around 4.2 volts.I say should cut off because nothing is perfect.There is a heap of energy in a 17670.Personally I prefer belt and suspenders.

Never ever leave a Li-Ion charging untended.Take it out as soon as the light turns green.

I believe the Pila IBC is generally considered the Cadillac of chargers (of this type) for 45 or 50 bucks.Then there are the hobby chargers that'll run a couple hundred or more.

Andy
 
Hello Jon,

I will echo Andy's welcome.

You will get the best cycle life from your Li-Ion cells if you limit the discharge to 80% of its total capacity. If you are good for 65 minutes, recharge after 52 minutes in routine use. If you need the extra run time, it is available, but in normal use stopping a little early should not pose any hardships.

Tom
 
This can be dangerous with un-protected lithium ion batteries as it can cause them to "vent with flame".At the very least it will shorten the battery life.If you are using protected battery this is less of concern as the batteries internal circuitry should cut off the charge around 4.2 volts.-ak645

Actually even protected cells rarely have proper over-volt protection. They have "worst-case-scenario" protection... So they will still trickle up to around 4.3-4.4V before the protection shuts them down in a WF-139...

Now.... In order to prevent overcharging, I think Silverfox would agree, the Pila IBC charger is one of the safest chargers out there. It's kind pricey though at around $40 or so.
 
But for now I can check them with a multimeter correct? What is a safe level for my HO4 setup? What do I do if it comes out overcharged?
 
I've been using a WF-139 for awhile now, I keep a multi-meter right next to it. I try to set it someplace I will notice it, or set a timer. I've only overcharged on accident once, to about 4.29V or something like that.. The cells haven't had any problems since, but overcharging will reduce their service life...

I have made a habit of pulling cells and testing when I fee like they might be getting done and think of it. If they are above 4.10V I call it done and use em. 4.200V is considered "full" but anything over 4.1 plenty.
 
I've been using a WF-139 for awhile now, I keep a multi-meter right next to it. I try to set it someplace I will notice it, or set a timer. I've only overcharged on accident once, to about 4.29V or something like that.. The cells haven't had any problems since, but overcharging will reduce their service life...

I have made a habit of pulling cells and testing when I fee like they might be getting done and think of it. If they are above 4.10V I call it done and use em. 4.200V is considered "full" but anything over 4.1 plenty.
I'm of the thought that the overcharged battery may instaflash my bulb. Is this a reality?
 
A tenth of a volt here or there aint gonna instaflash your bulb.Takes much more then that.What voltage is your bulb rated for?

As long as you are using protected cells you'll be fine.Just wait for the green light to come on and take your battery out.You are using protected cells?
 
A tenth of a volt here or there aint gonna instaflash your bulb.Takes much more then that.What voltage is your bulb rated for?

As long as you are using protected cells you'll be fine.Just wait for the green light to come on and take your battery out.You are using protected cells?
3.7V bulb with a "protected" AW 17670.

So 4.1-4.3 would not destroy my bulb then?
 
the bulb is the least of the worries. The problem with overcharging the cell has basically no measurable importance when talking about that bulb in that configuration.... The PROBLEM is the battery itself. Li-Ion cells should NOT be charged above 4.200V, doing so wears them out rapidly. As they age, they become more dangerous, overcharging rapidly ages the internal "barriers" so to speak.

So... the whole point to making sure to pull the cells of the charger as soon as it "goes green" is to protect the cell and your safety, not the bulb.
 
Dang, that's a pain in the azz. I was under the impression that the 139 charger would cut off when it turns green. I was also under AW's protected Li-Ions wouldn't overcharge.

I don't charge any of my Li-Ion's while I'm not at the house. But I have been guilty of letting them sit in the charger until I notice it's green/stopped blinking. Usually it's not more than an hour or so.

Is that dangerous with this charger on these batteries? How bad is this? Or, is this just being cautious and leaving them on for an hour or two after it turns green really isn't that bad, not recommended but, not that bad?
 
I'm a little curious about this as well. I'll be getting my first rechargeable setup soon (SF E2D with AW RCR123's and a LF EO-E2R 7.2V bulb) and I got the Ultrafire 138 charger for the batteries. I was under the impression that I could just leave the batteries in there to charge and it would automatically stop charging when it's full? I understand the part about not draining the batteries unnecessarily (from my Li-ion cell phone battery experiences) but I'm not so clear about charging them up to full. Will I have to sit and watch the batteries while they charge?

(I'm also aware that I should let the batteries sit for a while after a full charge before trying to use them, but my question is more oriented to the actual battery maintenance than blowing my bulb)
 
Perhaps it is time to review some of the basics of Li-Ion cells...

Li-Ion cells do not naturally limit the charge they accept. Well, actually they do, through rapidly venting with flame, but we don't want to go there. They will continue to accept a charge until they blow.

The voltage they are charged to is directly related to their cycle life. 4.2 volts is accepted as a full charge, and it gives you around 500 cycles. If you charge to different voltage levels, you can influence your cycle life, and capacity. Charging to 4.1 volts gives you around 90% of your capacity, but your cycle life increases to above 1500 cycles.

Li-Ion cells oxidize from the inside. This oxidization begins upon manufacturer, so they have a limited calender life. The current chemistry being used is projected to have a calender life of 5 - 7 years. Earlier chemistry had a calender life of 2 - 3 years.

When you over discharge Li-Ion cells, the electrodes are dissolved by the electrolyte. Less electrode area results in less capacity. Foreign material that has been dissolved into the electrolyte can also create safety issues during subsequent charging.

When you over charge Li-Ion cells, the electrolyte breaks down. You can gain some extra capacity from the over charge, but cycle life is greatly reduced. For example, charging a single cell to 4.3 volts will give you around a 10% increase in capacity if you use the cell immediately. If you let it sit at that level of charge, you may not see this increase and the damage to the cell will increase. Charging to 4.3 volts will give you around 100 cycles. Charging to 4.4 volts is getting to the border where thermal run away begins. At that charge level cycle life drops to about 4 cycles if you use the cell immediately. If you store it at that level, it may rapidly vent with flame.

The reason you can't run down to the local store and buy Li-Ion cells is because they are dangerous. They are designed to be used in circuits that provide proper charging algorithms and also offer protection against over and under discharge. In addition, some batteries have an additional back up protection attached to the cells themselves. These protection circuits are designed to kick in if the main circuit fails for some reason.

The protected cells that are available have these types of protection circuits. They limit over charging to 4.35 volts and over discharging to around 2.5 - 2.8 volts. While neither of these limits is conductive to long cycle life, they do protect the cell from immediate destruction.

The critical key to using rechargeable batteries is to charge them with a quality charger. A quality charger follows the proper charging algorithm and charge rate for the chemistry being charged, and has proper termination.

Tom
 
Thanks for the info! I'm still left wondering about my UF 138 charger that's coming soon... I didn't really think much of the differences between chargers when I ordered it. Does it stop charging at all or will it charge until the battery's internal circuitry threshold is reached?
 
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