AlexGT
Flashlight Enthusiast
Thanks newbie!
keep up the good work!
AlexGT
keep up the good work!
AlexGT
MagLite 2C/2D 4D 3W LED drop-in Technical Review
- Thread starter NewBie
- Start date
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mdocod
Flashaholic
on the bright side- since these modules are designed to operate in poorly heat sinked senarios- they may work as nice drop-ins for other alkaline powered cheap flashlights.
if the sockets in maglights were machined from metal rather than molded from plastic, then the heat would transfer much better.
like a KIU socket but with a PR base and a hollow section for the spring/cam mechanism to ride on. .. just a thought...
funny thing to me is it says on the packaging.. "patent pending" for the electonics circuit that controls the LED... Would be really funny if that one slips through the patent office... considering that thermal managment systems that can "tune down" the performance of electronic devices have been around for many years., dating back to power amplifiers, computer proccessors and many other systems.. not to mention- current regulation is nothing new..
if the sockets in maglights were machined from metal rather than molded from plastic, then the heat would transfer much better.
like a KIU socket but with a PR base and a hollow section for the spring/cam mechanism to ride on. .. just a thought...
funny thing to me is it says on the packaging.. "patent pending" for the electonics circuit that controls the LED... Would be really funny if that one slips through the patent office... considering that thermal managment systems that can "tune down" the performance of electronic devices have been around for many years., dating back to power amplifiers, computer proccessors and many other systems.. not to mention- current regulation is nothing new..
asdalton
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review
How about using one (or more) of those heavy, braided copper ground wires to connect the lamp socket to the body? It wouldn't be the greatest heat path, but it would be better than air--and it would allow the focusing mechanism to still work.
Empath said:
How about using one (or more) of those heavy, braided copper ground wires to connect the lamp socket to the body? It wouldn't be the greatest heat path, but it would be better than air--and it would allow the focusing mechanism to still work.
webley445
Flashlight Enthusiast
mdocod said:
Not so, saw a post earlier tonight about someone doing just that and it did not fit in their light, will all depend on the light, but I'm sure we will soon have a list to reference of torches that will accept the MagLed.
From the teaser pic it looks like the modules are all pretty much the same on brightness regardless of cell capacity. Am I wrong?
The drop-in module design doesn't bother me, since they appear to be doing OK inside a fairly limited envelope. But the lack of _any_ additional changes to the complete D/C lights strikes me as just plain odd. I realize the LED AA lights are all new--I'd guess this has more to do with the fact that a widely focusable 3W couldn't be had any other way rather than innovation.
Unlike Viren, I don't think they have any conspiratorial motives. Using drop-ins in their existing lights means no changes to the production line, part supply, and even basic packaging and instructions. Faster onto retail shelves. I can understand this. HOWEVER, for a company with the resources of Mag-Lite to do so little with the first new flashlight in about 22 years (honest, look it up) seems shortsighted.
Why is this? I doubt that technical difficulty or design cost reasons were behind it, after all Mag is the largest flashlight-only company in the world. Some personal, totally uninformed guess possibilities:
1. Getting caught with their pants down? Mag-Lite could have been totally complacent and assumed that they couldn't get overtaken simply with new technology. After all, they've had 22 years to think up something new, so I doubt that if they had been working on new lights all this time this would be all they could come up with. They could have had a comprehensive design ready into production to go long before the LED's became available in quantity. Assuming nothing like that was in the works, making a dropin-based light was the absolute fastest way to bring an LED to market.
2. Bad planning? Sort of related to the above, maybe they waited to work out the details until a large enough supply of cheap (probably generic Chinese) quality LEDs became available? Again, a dropin was the fastest way to go.
3. Maglica's personality? Ol' Tony has appeared to be a very ridgid, fixed in his ways type of person. After all, the newest 2 D-cell Mag-LED body made on May 29 of 2006 has no functional differences from the first model produced in LA in early 1979. I've read articles that had veiled comments from company sources that made it sound like many developments within the company weren't making it past his desk.
4. Ka-ching, ka-ching? The most probable reason is that this is simply the most cost effective way to make an LED C/D Mag. It's not unthinkable that they'd only be concerned with the bottom line and assume (maybe correctly) that customers will buy the new lights simply because they're LEDs.
If number 4 is the case, I think it's very shortsighted, as I've stated above. Given the opportunity they have here there's no reason not to make some changes that would benifit them in the long term. As LED lights develop the new Mag-LEDs will quickly become outdated, especially for a perceived "new technology." PR-base flashlights from any company haven't changed in 20 years, but LEDs are a rapidly expanding market. I think that this was Mag's chance to make a big splash with LEDs. This should have been the time they created a new platform that they can sell for the next 20 years. Instead, they have a handcuffed update to their oldest flashlight. If they ever do come out with a new-design C/D Mag-LED flashlight they won't have nearly the success promoting it. After all, what would the theme be? "Because our first LED light wasn't enough!"?
All this said, I am looking forward to the AA models. At least a good deal of thought appears to have gone into them, and they are a totally new design.
Unlike Viren, I don't think they have any conspiratorial motives. Using drop-ins in their existing lights means no changes to the production line, part supply, and even basic packaging and instructions. Faster onto retail shelves. I can understand this. HOWEVER, for a company with the resources of Mag-Lite to do so little with the first new flashlight in about 22 years (honest, look it up) seems shortsighted.
Why is this? I doubt that technical difficulty or design cost reasons were behind it, after all Mag is the largest flashlight-only company in the world. Some personal, totally uninformed guess possibilities:
1. Getting caught with their pants down? Mag-Lite could have been totally complacent and assumed that they couldn't get overtaken simply with new technology. After all, they've had 22 years to think up something new, so I doubt that if they had been working on new lights all this time this would be all they could come up with. They could have had a comprehensive design ready into production to go long before the LED's became available in quantity. Assuming nothing like that was in the works, making a dropin-based light was the absolute fastest way to bring an LED to market.
2. Bad planning? Sort of related to the above, maybe they waited to work out the details until a large enough supply of cheap (probably generic Chinese) quality LEDs became available? Again, a dropin was the fastest way to go.
3. Maglica's personality? Ol' Tony has appeared to be a very ridgid, fixed in his ways type of person. After all, the newest 2 D-cell Mag-LED body made on May 29 of 2006 has no functional differences from the first model produced in LA in early 1979. I've read articles that had veiled comments from company sources that made it sound like many developments within the company weren't making it past his desk.
4. Ka-ching, ka-ching? The most probable reason is that this is simply the most cost effective way to make an LED C/D Mag. It's not unthinkable that they'd only be concerned with the bottom line and assume (maybe correctly) that customers will buy the new lights simply because they're LEDs.
If number 4 is the case, I think it's very shortsighted, as I've stated above. Given the opportunity they have here there's no reason not to make some changes that would benifit them in the long term. As LED lights develop the new Mag-LEDs will quickly become outdated, especially for a perceived "new technology." PR-base flashlights from any company haven't changed in 20 years, but LEDs are a rapidly expanding market. I think that this was Mag's chance to make a big splash with LEDs. This should have been the time they created a new platform that they can sell for the next 20 years. Instead, they have a handcuffed update to their oldest flashlight. If they ever do come out with a new-design C/D Mag-LED flashlight they won't have nearly the success promoting it. After all, what would the theme be? "Because our first LED light wasn't enough!"?
All this said, I am looking forward to the AA models. At least a good deal of thought appears to have gone into them, and they are a totally new design.
asdalton
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review
How about using one (or more) of those heavy, braided copper ground wires to connect the lamp socket to the body? It wouldn't be the greatest heat path, but it would be better than air--and it would allow the focusing mechanism to still work.
Empath said:
How about using one (or more) of those heavy, braided copper ground wires to connect the lamp socket to the body? It wouldn't be the greatest heat path, but it would be better than air--and it would allow the focusing mechanism to still work.
NewBie
*Retired*
Added a few lights to the array. Beamshots are after about 25 minutes runtime here. The LED MagLites were alot brighter at the beginning. All lights have new cells, and cost quite a handsome sum to go fresh. Note the Fenix L2P shown here is quite the cream of the crop...
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idleprocess
Flashaholic
There isn't a good deal of room in a maglite head for additional heatsinking if you want to retain the original cam-focusing assembly:
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NewBie
*Retired*
Here we go, one of those for your eyes only, which reveals
the secrets and the shortcommings, and explains a great
many things...
Potting this puppy might help alot...but keep the potting out of the contacts.
I really cannot believe MagLite actually did this...
the secrets and the shortcommings, and explains a great
many things...
Potting this puppy might help alot...but keep the potting out of the contacts.
I really cannot believe MagLite actually did this...
TENMMIKE
Enlightened
if you go to HDS site and read in the artical section you will see what their thougts on the patenting of L.E.D.lights (3rd from top).kind of a interesting read...BTW excellant post newbie...http://www.hdssystems.com/Articles.html
mdocod said:
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chevrofreak
Flashlight Enthusiast
NewBie said:
I can. :thumbsdow
NewBie
*Retired*
I have not had a chance to characterize the module yet, but I will try and get some curves on it over the next few days. I can tell you it still works at 1.45V in, but it will only pull 182mA out of the cell. As such, this is well below the 0.8V of 2 depleted D sized Alkaline cells in series.
BentHeadTX
Flashlight Enthusiast
Thanks for taking apart the drop-in, it is an outstanding example of "F-bomb engineering". How could ANY engineer come up with something so poorly protected from heat? Granted, the R&D engineers at Mag have been sleeping for 22 years but at least one of them should of been paying attention. Luxeons have been around for 5 years and doing a search on google would of mentioned "heat" and "correct heat sinking" if they spent 15 minutes reading. 
The first time I ran into a Luxeon was on hardocp.com (computer overclocking site) They had a picture of a Luxeon Star and noted "LED with a HEAT SINK"! back in May 2001. The star on a Luxeon is a pretty good indicator that the LED requires decent heat sinking to operate. I wonder how long the thermal regulator will last cooking at 75C all day in a 4D Mag?
$19 for a drop-in is a great price, but then adding the cost for Artic Silver epoxy and woven copper line in an attempt to keep the output going is not worth it to me. Maybe their 2AA light will be better but it will have to compete with the $35 Nuwaii X-3 or $44 Fenix L2T. It will be funny if the minimag outputs more light than a 4D Mag-LED after running it for a few minutes.
The first time I ran into a Luxeon was on hardocp.com (computer overclocking site) They had a picture of a Luxeon Star and noted "LED with a HEAT SINK"! back in May 2001. The star on a Luxeon is a pretty good indicator that the LED requires decent heat sinking to operate. I wonder how long the thermal regulator will last cooking at 75C all day in a 4D Mag?
$19 for a drop-in is a great price, but then adding the cost for Artic Silver epoxy and woven copper line in an attempt to keep the output going is not worth it to me.
Maybe their 2AA light will be better but it will have to compete with the $35 Nuwaii X-3 or $44 Fenix L2T. It will be funny if the minimag outputs more light than a 4D Mag-LED after running it for a few minutes. ViReN
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review
I had thought so .... .. thanks NewBie for confirming the same.
now.. Let's remove the electronics from the modules (wonder if it is as efficient as others).... and build a alltogether "New" heat sinks....and start modding again.... until... Mag comes up with a "All New" 2D, 3D etc versions...
but then.... doh.... we already have hotlips and other beautiful heatsinks...
Also NewBie, could you please confirm that the material is Brass...
I feel sorry .... but even if they could have put copper 'tablet' inside untill the 'PR Flange', the scope could have been much more by applying 'extetnal' heat sinking.
enclosing the electronics in a brass shell and putting over the LED isnt what most of CPFer's would have thought of...
Now just one more (probably) dissappointment is awaited ... let's see how it 'performs' and wether the circuit is a true regulating circuit or just a boost circuit ....
.. here again, it being as a simple boost circuit is more probable, as Mag Light has specific modules for 2, 3, 4 cells .... or may be.. they have configured things differently???
ViReN said:
I had thought so ....
.. thanks NewBie for confirming the same.now.. Let's remove the electronics from the modules (wonder if it is as efficient as others).... and build a alltogether "New" heat sinks....and start modding again.... until... Mag comes up with a "All New" 2D, 3D etc versions...
but then.... doh.... we already have hotlips and other beautiful heatsinks...
Also NewBie, could you please confirm that the material is Brass...
I feel sorry .... but even if they could have put copper 'tablet' inside untill the 'PR Flange', the scope could have been much more by applying 'extetnal' heat sinking.
enclosing the electronics in a brass shell and putting over the LED isnt what most of CPFer's would have thought of...
Now just one more (probably) dissappointment is awaited ... let's see how it 'performs' and wether the circuit is a true regulating circuit or just a boost circuit ....
.. here again, it being as a simple boost circuit is more probable, as Mag Light has specific modules for 2, 3, 4 cells .... or may be.. they have configured things differently???
ViReN
Flashlight Enthusiast
ABTOMAT said:
just to clarify, I to dont think there is any conspiracy ... what i feel is that it's just the huge market that they want to keep happy by not making an 'innovation' right away.... because you see... they have a huge userdatabase who are using the MagLights....
If i was a user of Mag 2D light, i would have been very unhappy if it just got obsolute because of LED...
what Mag has done is that they 'might' have developed a optimum compromise between the light output, LED, electronics and most importantly 'backward compatibility'.
they also have kept option open to bring a 'all new' and 'improved' (perhaps better heat sink'd modules/light itself) down the line.
TinderBox (UK)
Flashlight Enthusiast
I think we need to come up with a list of PR BASED drop-ins.
And evaluate their thermal and electronic, properties.
the general pubilc are going to buy the maglite LED drop-ins, because they dont know any better.
but we on CPF do, and their are a lot of good alternative LED drop-ins.
I only have 1W EVERLED`s and PR SMJLED`s
regards.
And evaluate their thermal and electronic, properties.
the general pubilc are going to buy the maglite LED drop-ins, because they dont know any better.
but we on CPF do, and their are a lot of good alternative LED drop-ins.
I only have 1W EVERLED`s and PR SMJLED`s
regards.
Pellidon
Flashlight Enthusiast
My WAG (Wild A** Guess) would be that the fact the led just clips into the contact points will cause some power loss especially during heatup? Also repeated heatings and coolings will probably cause some oxidaion or some kind of crudding up of the contact points and degrade the operation.
The center tab between the two led ear clips I guess is the ground connection from the board to the shell? A small dimple is the contact point? Not good.
One of my machines I service at work uses a 1141 auto tail lamp for a light source. The lamp is semi enclosed in a small metal box with limited ventilation. The heat buildup from the lamp causes some revisions of the model to become erratic as they just have a plated metal clip touching the ground shell of the lamp for the negative connection.
It will be interesting to see how these units fare in a few weeks or months of use. If I get unlazy I might hard wire the LED and ground.
The center tab between the two led ear clips I guess is the ground connection from the board to the shell? A small dimple is the contact point? Not good.
One of my machines I service at work uses a 1141 auto tail lamp for a light source. The lamp is semi enclosed in a small metal box with limited ventilation. The heat buildup from the lamp causes some revisions of the model to become erratic as they just have a plated metal clip touching the ground shell of the lamp for the negative connection.
It will be interesting to see how these units fare in a few weeks or months of use. If I get unlazy I might hard wire the LED and ground.
Newbie,
Why do you have two beam shots for Mag 2D LED Bulb (to the right of the Inova beam) ??
Also, has anyone thought about the fact that the lower output with increased heat will likely extend battery life?
And, isn't it true that even though the measured beam is 50% of maximum when hot, this is just about the limit of what we can discern in brightness difference when using a light. That is, we will notice that the light is a bit less bright once it heats up, but only a barely perceptible difference will be seen.
Has anyone been able to make beam shots of the Mags cold versus hot? I think that would be interesting. ??
Why do you have two beam shots for Mag 2D LED Bulb (to the right of the Inova beam) ??
Also, has anyone thought about the fact that the lower output with increased heat will likely extend battery life?
And, isn't it true that even though the measured beam is 50% of maximum when hot, this is just about the limit of what we can discern in brightness difference when using a light. That is, we will notice that the light is a bit less bright once it heats up, but only a barely perceptible difference will be seen.
Has anyone been able to make beam shots of the Mags cold versus hot? I think that would be interesting. ??
NewBie
*Retired*
martytoo said:
Because I have two 2D Mag 3W LED drop-in bulbs. I fully expected to have to ruin one when revealing it's internal guts.
Brightness difference, in a side by side, I have seen folks that can just make out 20% when I test them.
I did notice the tint shifts as they get hot.
Okay, here are two of these 2D 3W MagLite LED drop-ins, side by side. At the start they are equal brightness, very slightly different tints. I just set one up here for about 15 minutes, and let it run, and then turned on the other, and got a picture within the first minute.
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