Yes,I do.
I'm not knocking the Malkoff,its a great product,but Surefire has a track record thats not likely to be matched anytime in the near future.
-Michael
P61L
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Yes,I do.
I'm not knocking the Malkoff,its a great product,but Surefire has a track record thats not likely to be matched anytime in the near future.
-Michael
Sgt. LED
Flashaholic
Man I'm sorry but I gotta let of a bit of steam on this one, it's not directed at you rather directed at the hole in my wallet due to the P60L
I kinda think their D26 size drop-in has a lousy track record.
Because: they have only made 1 model that due to heat lowered it's output so quick that they were forced to make an inline bezel switch in the G2L lights to try to get closer to specs and the runtime/output charts were vastly different that the usual Surefire claim VS reality.
Up until the P60L the term "Surefire Lumens" was a common way of saying if they claim 100 lumens for 1 hour, what you got was 120 lumens for 1 hour. With the P60L the claim is 80 lumens for 12 hours and what you get is 65 lumens for maybe 4 hours.
I hate to knock them since they do so well with all of their other LED products. Every Surefire LED light besides the P60L has been very good to me and I reccomend them. But sadly for me I would be fine if they just quit the LED drop-in program totally and focused on upgrading all their other LED lights from Lux V's to SSC's and Cree's.
:shrug:
I kinda think their D26 size drop-in has a lousy track record.
Because: they have only made 1 model that due to heat lowered it's output so quick that they were forced to make an inline bezel switch in the G2L lights to try to get closer to specs and the runtime/output charts were vastly different that the usual Surefire claim VS reality.
Up until the P60L the term "Surefire Lumens" was a common way of saying if they claim 100 lumens for 1 hour, what you got was 120 lumens for 1 hour. With the P60L the claim is 80 lumens for 12 hours and what you get is 65 lumens for maybe 4 hours.
I hate to knock them since they do so well with all of their other LED products. Every Surefire LED light besides the P60L has been very good to me and I reccomend them. But sadly for me I would be fine if they just quit the LED drop-in program totally and focused on upgrading all their other LED lights from Lux V's to SSC's and Cree's.
:shrug:
mdocod
Flashaholic
Good point Sgt. LED!
Yeah,I'll agree the output is kaput,but the track record is anything but lousy.To me,the term "track record" is representative of reliability more than effeciency.The reliability(track record) has been superb, but the efficieny(performance) leaves a lot to be desired.
The P60L has proven itself to be very reliable even when rigidly mounted on many thousands of weapons through many thousands of rounds.Thats the aspect I was referring to that would be near impossible to beat.
Yeah,the useful stated runtime is really stretched on the P60L,but the output is around 80lm.
If you've ever pulled one apart the driver seemingly has enough components to make three other boards.The reason for this I assume is redundancy,they've sacrificed efficiency/runtime for reliability.
In my lightbox,most manufacturers come in around their stated output,but Surefire's are always higher than claimed.Im working to get it dialed in better,right now I'm within 10%.
I agree its something they need to work on.The P60L is definately the odd one of the bunch,most all of their lights are overachievers,but the P60L is the blacksheep.
Yeah,other drop-in manufacturers are way ahead with output,runtime,and usability.LF announcing recently they were going to build an LED drop-in really stirs the pot.
But Surefire has actually upgraded at least one light with the recent change of the U2 w/Lux-V to the U2A w/SSC P4.The jurys still out on runtime and output last I checked.
In short,other quality manufacturers indeed have the edge in usability and output,but I think the P60L has a track record of reliability that has to be acknowledged in terms of volume.
-Michael
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Michael
To play the devils advocate here your suggestion that the P60L has redundancy circuits doesn't make sense. Are you saying that in the event that one component or part of a circuit malfunctions then the LED would continue to work? If that is your proposition then neither Surefire or anyone else has capitalized on it as a function and used it as a sales point?
Whilst there is no denying that the P60L is a fine piece of engineering it uses an electronic sensor for thermal management which is far less efficient than a physical heatsink. This simple fact explains why the output quickly lowers once the P60L begins too hot to dissipate a build up of heat in the module. The reliability of the module is also debatable given that no one knows how many have been sold and if there are many warranty claims?
My feelings, like yours,are that as there are no widespread complaints heard on this or other forums that the module must indeed be reliable. However, this is not verifiable and is just a subjective statement. Al on another thread made a suggestion that the only way to test if a Malkoff or any other well known maker of drop-ins products is reliable on a firearm is to have a number of each module tested. Unfortunately without proper testing the P60L cannot be said to be any more relaible than any other component and the choice of a Surefire P60L is simply a matter of preference. As you will see from a previous post I made I have 3 P60L's which I regard as both useful and until proven otherwise reliable. However, I would much rather use a Malkoff as I 'feel' the reliability is as likely to be as good as or better than the P60L. What is not in dispute is that the output on the M60, M60F and M60L is better than the P60L and given that Surefire themselves suggested that the 'P61L would have an output of at least 200 lumens then the Malkoff units already exceed this statement.
To play the devils advocate here your suggestion that the P60L has redundancy circuits doesn't make sense. Are you saying that in the event that one component or part of a circuit malfunctions then the LED would continue to work? If that is your proposition then neither Surefire or anyone else has capitalized on it as a function and used it as a sales point?
Whilst there is no denying that the P60L is a fine piece of engineering it uses an electronic sensor for thermal management which is far less efficient than a physical heatsink. This simple fact explains why the output quickly lowers once the P60L begins too hot to dissipate a build up of heat in the module. The reliability of the module is also debatable given that no one knows how many have been sold and if there are many warranty claims?
My feelings, like yours,are that as there are no widespread complaints heard on this or other forums that the module must indeed be reliable. However, this is not verifiable and is just a subjective statement. Al on another thread made a suggestion that the only way to test if a Malkoff or any other well known maker of drop-ins products is reliable on a firearm is to have a number of each module tested. Unfortunately without proper testing the P60L cannot be said to be any more relaible than any other component and the choice of a Surefire P60L is simply a matter of preference. As you will see from a previous post I made I have 3 P60L's which I regard as both useful and until proven otherwise reliable. However, I would much rather use a Malkoff as I 'feel' the reliability is as likely to be as good as or better than the P60L. What is not in dispute is that the output on the M60, M60F and M60L is better than the P60L and given that Surefire themselves suggested that the 'P61L would have an output of at least 200 lumens then the Malkoff units already exceed this statement.
Looks like I'm not the only one who got fed up waiting for the P61L.
Snagged a slightly used M60 on B/S/T recently. Gave my SF C2 new life!
Gene's handmade creations are SWEET! :twothumbs
Sorry Michael, I don't "bow" at the altar of SF.
If you really believe that that P60L is better than Gene's "stuff", so be it, you are welcome to believe what you want. BTW, "the sky is falling".
For me, no P60L's reside in any of my "P60" capable SF's (17 of them), nor will any, at least until SF "decides" to make them right (I'm not holding my breath).
My .02 FWIW YMMV
If you really believe that that P60L is better than Gene's "stuff", so be it, you are welcome to believe what you want. BTW, "the sky is falling".
For me, no P60L's reside in any of my "P60" capable SF's (17 of them), nor will any, at least until SF "decides" to make them right (I'm not holding my breath).
My .02 FWIW YMMV
PhantomPhoton
Flashlight Enthusiast
I've also stopped waiting for the P61L. Its Malkoff all the way for me for now. Hopefully SF is fixing the regulation and making good heatsinking in the meantime.
kelmo
Flashlight Enthusiast
I'll buy a few if they come to market. What I like about the SF drop in, as txgp17 stated, that it will fit in the spares carrier. I'm assuming that the would be P61L will fit in a SC1. This will give my 6P/9P a hi-low option and with a twisty switch will make it an extremely reliable system as I can replace the emitter out in the field if something goes wrong.
kelmo
kelmo
JNewell
Flashlight Enthusiast
I have and am running a couple of P60Ls. They were priced well (discount from a B&M dealer with no web advertising to worry about) and I'm happy with them. But...
Yep, with an emphasis on "new." As in, not "new life" (for the same light) but "new light." I know that's kinda playing with words...but the M60 and M60F I got last week totally changed the usefulness and performance of their hosts. I started in a pair of G2s but moved them to a pair of C2s until I can get replacement bezels for the G2s.
The only problem is that the M60F has some completely upstaged my KL4 that it's been hiding in a closet since it saw the beam from the M60F.
Yep, with an emphasis on "new." As in, not "new life" (for the same light) but "new light." I know that's kinda playing with words...but the M60 and M60F I got last week totally changed the usefulness and performance of their hosts. I started in a pair of G2s but moved them to a pair of C2s until I can get replacement bezels for the G2s.
The only problem is that the M60F has some completely upstaged my KL4 that it's been hiding in a closet since it saw the beam from the M60F.
It might just be more cost-effective for Surefire to throw a buttload of money at Gene, and buy the rights to his Production-version M60 drop-in.... And that's meant with zero sarcasm.
Sgt. LED
Flashaholic
^
+1!
+1!
brighterisbetter
Flashlight Enthusiast
^
+1 again!! Got my first M30 today, the engraved one, and love the build quality. Next up for me is the M60LL for my BOB.
+1 again!! Got my first M30 today, the engraved one, and love the build quality. Next up for me is the M60LL for my BOB.
As I said,if you've ever really opened up a Surefire and compared the driver to others,you'd see that there are much more components than are necessary to make the circuit function.
They have capitalized on it,its called reliability.
Thats an incorrect statement,in more than way than one.To say it dosent have a "heatsink" when most other drop-ins are built the same way is misleading.
And the output dosent drop dramatically,it drops about 10lm,and then stabilizes.
This has been said a hundred times,but Surefire's primary market is the Military and Law Enforcement.Environments where it may be rigidly mounted to a high caliber weapon,getting banged around by entry teams,all while enduring very high ambient tempratures.And yes,if there were even a small amount of failures,I'm sure we would hear about it in one way or the other.Want proof,how about the Surefire tailcap issues of the past?I'd say it would be near impossible to claim they are anything but reliable.
The P60L and other Surefire's have been tested,in extreme conditions more than any other manufacturer,thats a fact.
I dont bow at any alter,I work to be objective in my observations.
If you actually read my post you'd see I never questioned the Malkoff,in fact quite the opposite.I stated the Surefire had been tested in more conditions and in higher numbers than any other manufacturer.Thats a statement of fact.
-Michael
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brighterisbetter
Flashlight Enthusiast
Michael, I liked the way you defended your earlier post by not being rude or showing hostility, this to me shows your confidence and professionalism. That being said, I think many of the arguments being made so far, from either side of the fence, are mostly in part due to the frustration of the P61L not being available yet, despite being announced for 2008. Once the product finally comes to fruition, then I'm sure the hostilities will dissipate a great deal, but until that time, thanks all for keeping me entertained.
EDIT - Should mention that I currently own two Malkoff's which I love, but have yet to own a P60L.
EDIT - Should mention that I currently own two Malkoff's which I love, but have yet to own a P60L.
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Bullzeyebill
Flashaholic
I have a Malkoff drop-in and a SF P60L, and both are nice. The P60L seems to be sturdy, and I have wrapped mine with aluminum foil for a tight fit and get no drop off in output using a metal SF bezel (bounce with light meter). I particularly like the beam of the P60L with a more or less even transition from the main beam and flood area. The beam of the Malkoff is awesome and setup for max lux, with a nice wide center beam. I wrap up my Malkoff too. The difference, of course, is the higher flux of the Malkoff, and higher mA drain from the batteries. From my point of view the P60L is good for an all purpose light, not too bright for close up work, not too dim for throw outside, and also good runtime. The P61L will most certainly be an interesting drop-in, and we can only guess how it will be setup for heatsinking.
Bill
Bill
Thanks brighterisbetter,
Funny thing is I'm not really a big fan of the P60L,but I think objectively it has proven itself.
The P61L,regardless of release time,already has some tough competition,and other multi-level drop-ins are way ahead as far as useability goes.
-Michael
Funny thing is I'm not really a big fan of the P60L,but I think objectively it has proven itself.
The P61L,regardless of release time,already has some tough competition,and other multi-level drop-ins are way ahead as far as useability goes.
-Michael
JNewell
Flashlight Enthusiast
I have been waiting for the P61, as mentioned...but I have begun to suspect that when it appears it won't have the specs that were announced in the 2008 catalog. I think there's a good chance they've found that they can't fit those specs into their design and production boxes. I'd love to be wrong about that...we'll find out.
