P61L

[Bullzeyebill]

Thanks brighterisbetter,

Funny thing is I'm not really a big fan of the P60L,but I think objectively it has proven itself.

The P61L,regardless of release time,already has some tough competition,and other multi-level drop-ins are way ahead as far as useability goes.

-Michael

Actually, SF will have little competition if and when they come out with the P61L. CPF people and maybe a few others are the only ones who know about alternatives to the SF P60L, and quite possibly the P61L. The mainstream population will think that the P61L is the only LED solution for them, for high output in an LED that they can use with their SF products. Maybe, manufacturers such as Malkoff will have an impact on the general population, LEO's, and the Military, providing some stiff competition. We will see.

Bill

 

[RWT1405]

If you actually read my post you'd see I never questioned the Malkoff,in fact quite the opposite.I stated the Surefire had been tested in more conditions and in higher numbers than any other manufacturer.Thats a statement of fact.

-Michael

TexLite

Flashaholic
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 303

Re: P61L
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt. LED
Honestly does anyone here think Surefire could do better than Gene?

Yes,I do.

I'm not knocking the Malkoff,its a great product,but Surefire has a track record thats not likely to be matched anytime in the near future.

-Michael


Really, you didn't? Please show me how the P60L is better then Gene's "stuff".

My .02 FWIW YMMV

 

[TexLite]

If you actually read my post you'd see I never questioned the Malkoff,in fact quite the opposite.I stated the Surefire had been tested in more conditions and in higher numbers than any other manufacturer.Thats a statement of fact.

-Michael

TexLite

Flashaholic
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 303

Re: P61L
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt. LED
Honestly does anyone here think Surefire could do better than Gene?

Yes,I do.

I'm not knocking the Malkoff,its a great product,but Surefire has a track record thats not likely to be matched anytime in the near future.

-Michael


Really, you didn't? Please show me how the P60L is better then Gene's "stuff".

My .02 FWIW YMMV

Yes,exactly.Read the post one more time.

I said the Malkoff is a great product,but the area Surefire has them beat is the sheer number of products in service in harsh environments where they have proven themselves.

-Michael

 

[TMedina]

As much as I love my new Malkoff drop-in, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Gene and Cathy do not have the resources to subject their creations to the same degree of testing that Surefire can apply to its product line.

Does this in any way denigrate the quality of a Malkoff? Nope. Am I suddenly less trusting in my Malkoff? Nope. For that matter, I intend to buy one or two more, future paychecks permitting.

If and when the P61L is released, there will inevitably be comparisons with Malkoff drop-ins; to each their own. "Best" is a matter of opinion, taste and relative standard.

-Trevor

 

[RWT1405]

Really now, they have? PLEASE enlighten me as to WHERE the P60L has "proven" itself? I submit, that it has not. Just because you say it has, does not make it so.

If you have "proof" of the P60L being superior to the Malkoff's and having "proven" itself, please provide it, as I am very interested in seeing it, as I am sure many others here will be also (owning both and having moved all of the P60L's that I have to "cheap knock off's" and for gifts to people who wouldn't normally buy such a light). I can tell you that none of the P60L's (unless they "fix" them) will find their way into my work or CCW lights.

I find the P60L "wanting" and not up to SF's normal "standards", at least not the "standard" that I found in the first one's I bought in the mid 1990's.

As I said I do not "bow" at the altar of SF as so MANY here do, when the product they put out is "sub-standard", and yes, I say the P60L is "sub-standard". Not even to talk about the P61L that may never appear, so it seems.

My .02 FWIW YMMV

 

[Superdave]

the P61L was supposed to use a SSC P7, i got tired of waiting and made my own.. and now i see why SF hasn't released them. the beam quality with such a small reflector is crap. It gets pretty warm after a while and even with plenty of thermal compound and decent heatsinking it still tints blue after 10 minutes of use.


For now i'm using a generic Q5 dropin, it's plenty and runs forever on 1 18650

the P60L uses a P4 LED.. no wonder the Malkoff is brighter since it's using the better CREE LED. :thumbsup:

 

[ampdude]

I've been very interested in a P7 drop-in, but I was never that impressed with the P7 specs. I'll bet Sure-Fire was not either.

 

[rtt]

Really now, they have? PLEASE enlighten me as to WHERE the P60L has "proven" itself? I submit, that it has not. Just because you say it has, does not make it so.

If you have "proof" of the P60L being superior to the Malkoff's and having "proven" itself, please provide it,

+1! I don't know what you mean the "P60L has proven itself" Do you mean the P60L is more reliable, more output, better beam, better runtime, etc, or are you just stating that there are more P60L units being used than Malkoff units? More units being used does not make the unit superior.

 

[ace0001a]

As a flashlight enthusiast, I would most likely check out the P61L when and if it comes out. I'm not holding my breath for it though. I honestly don't understand why any flashlight enthusiast here would simply just wait for Surefire to bring them premium performance on their P60 compatible flashlights when there is a plethora of high performance dropins already available...all of which of course ranges in quality, but certainly are worth looking into. I myself own just about every P60LED dropin ranging from the "cheap" DX models to some premium Malkoff Devices M60 R2 modules. I don't purposely rough up my Surefires during my everyday uses of them and so far only the cheap one I put together myself has every actually given me any problems (in which case as a flashlight enthusiast I figured out what the problem was and easily fixed it). Unless you're in law enforcement or actually use your flashlight for "life and death" situations, I personally think the whole idea of "supreme" reliability is a bit overrated. If there's one thing in life I believe is true is that nothing is perfect...and while I am sure Surefire products are of a very high standard, I don't put such high expectations on them. Right now, my vote goes to Malkoff Devices M60 modules. They're built like tanks (for lack of a better description), have extremely reliable performance, have arguably one of best beams for a cree out there (and I know that's subjective) and have Gene's 100% satisfaction guarantee. Plus I know he is devoted to his craft and I really like the idea of something hand made (albeit he is about to have them manufactured).

Like I said, I will probably check out the P61L when and if it becomes available. I briefly owned a P60L and didn't care much for it, so to me there is plenty of room for improvement from them.

 

[Bullzeyebill]

Regarding SF reliability, we can only assume that their products are thoroughly tested. SF does not tell us their protocol for testing. The tests that we will have access to will be done by fellow CPF'ers, and I am sure if the P60L, or upcoming P61L, has problems, we will hear about it. One issue I can note is that the P60L is not really sealed up tight. All you have to do to see the guts, so to speak, of the P60L is remove the label wrapped around the drop-in. That label is keeping moisture and other matter out, and any accidental loosening of that label can compromise the LA.

I like my Surefire products, really like them, but I will not get defensive if people have their reasons for not totally embracing the SF concept.

Bill

 

[TMedina]

:shrug:

Every subject has hot topics - "Surefire" seems to be one of them.

-Trevor

 

[Tempest UK]

Is this "debate" to become the new "Fenix vs. SureFire"? :shakehead

Regards,
Tempest

 

[TexLite]

I like my Surefire products, really like them, but I will not get defensive if people have their reasons for not totally embracing the SF concept.

Im not getting defensive,I only defended my answer.I answered a question that was asked by Sarge.It was the other guys who seemingly became upset.

I'm not really concerned one way or the other whether or not anyone embraces Surefire.As I stated,I'm not a cool-aid drinker,but I do strive to be objective and honest.

One issue I can note is that the P60L is not really sealed up tight. All you have to do to see the guts, so to speak, of the P60L is remove the label wrapped around the drop-in. That label is keeping moisture and other matter out, and any accidental loosening of that label can compromise the LA.

Thats true,but the label isn't the primary defense against the elements,the light itself is.I'm not aware of any drop-ins that are designed to be weather-resistant outside of the body of the light.

By the way,I didn't find an appropriate place to acknowledge it before,but your post #41 makes a good point.

-Michael

 

[rtt]

Is this "debate" to become the new "Fenix vs. SureFire"? :shakehead

Regards,
Tempest

I don't think so! The Malkoff is so much superior vs SureFire.

 

[CM]

As I said,if you've ever really opened up a Surefire and compared the driver to others,you'd see that there are much more components than are necessary to make the circuit function...

That is an interesting assertion, that there is circuitry for redundancy operation. Have you actually reverse engineered any of their circuits to come to this conclusion? Reason I ask is that I have studied their circuits (KL1, KL6, KL4) and see no evidence that the design was done with redundancy in mind. I can tell you that if I pick any one component, say one of the SOT-23 parts or a resistor, and remove it, or short it, that the circuit will fail to function.

Reliability is also a strong function of the component count. In general, for two properly designed circuits, the one with the higher component count is more likely to have a lower MTBF. Simplicity has an elegance all by itself and one is reliability. I'm not saying that Surefires are unreliable, in fact when people ask what light they should buy for "serious" applications, I would point them to Surefire 99% of the time. But I would challenge the statement that Surefire has redundant circuitry to handle component failures.

 

[Monocrom]

One issue I can note is that the P60L is not really sealed up tight. All you have to do to see the guts, so to speak, of the P60L is remove the label wrapped around the drop-in. That label is keeping moisture and other matter out, and any accidental loosening of that label can compromise the LA.

I like my Surefire products, really like them, but I will not get defensive if people have their reasons for not totally embracing the SF concept.

Bill

Wow.... That is something that wouldn't surprise me if I discovered it on a No-Name LED drop-in sold through DX. But from Surefire??....

Thanks Bill, you saved me some money.

 

[zx7dave]

I am a huge SF fan...but I also admit that for SF to put items in their catalog that isn't going to be released in the first quarter of that same year is BS. They been doing this since '69. They need to advertise only what they are going to offer.

 

[ampdude]

One issue I can note is that the P60L is not really sealed up tight. All you have to do to see the guts, so to speak, of the P60L is remove the label wrapped around the drop-in. That label is keeping moisture and other matter out, and any accidental loosening of that label can compromise the LA.

I like my Surefire products, really like them, but I will not get defensive if people have their reasons for not totally embracing the SF concept.

Wow.... That is something that wouldn't surprise me if I discovered it on a No-Name LED drop-in sold through DX. But from Surefire??....

Thanks Bill, you saved me some money.

This is an issue? I would think that once water has passed the o-rings of a properly lubricated quality light, all bets are off. Who ever heard of a water-proof LED module?

I'm sorry guys, but you've got me scratching my head on this one. :thinking:

 

[FlashSpyJ]

I too really like what SureFire produces, but I must say that if another manufacture comes out with a good product before SF does, chanses are very high that I will buy that one! And probably not think of the SF product again. This goes for lamp assembly's not the actual light.

For instance, LF have come out with a couple of LED drop ins, if they're any good chances are very high that I wont buy SFs P61L, at least I wont be waiting for it as hard as I have been until now...

Of course Im not their main customer either so I dont think this will affect them a bit, even if there are others out there that does the same thing.

To be honest, Im a bit tired of discussions like this one. We all know that SF takes their time to release their products, we just have to suck it up and wait for it or buy something else. Discussing it wont make it come out faster...

 

[Monocrom]

This is an issue? I would think that once water has passed the o-rings of a properly lubricated quality light, all bets are off. Who ever heard of a water-proof LED module?

I'm sorry guys, but you've got me scratching my head on this one. :thinking:

It's not about the practical aspect of being watertight. (At least not for me). It's about quality. I look at Gene's excellent M60 drop-in sitting in my SF C2, and I can see the quality. Short, stout, robust piece of brass beauty. I know it's just a drop-in, but it really is built tough as nails. It looks as though it belongs in any tough as nails P60-based Surefire light. Like a perfect fit. (Literally and figuretively). If you slapped a Surefire label on one of Gene's creations, and if folks didn't know any better, it would easily be accepted as a genuine top-quality Surefire product.

Meanwhile, the only thing concealing the guts of the Surefire P60L is the label. Surefire slapped a label on their drop-in. A label.... That's not what you expect when you think of a top of the line Surefire product. Labels are not tough as nails. If someone told me that their LED drop-in had a label covering up the guts of the drop-in, I'd ask them for the sku # on DX and tell them not to be upset since they likely only payed a few dollars for the cheap thing. But to find out that they were talking about a Surefire product??

It's sad, but clearly Gene's creations are more appropriate in P60-based Surefire lights than what Surefire makes as LED drop-ins for their lights; in terms of quality.