P7 mod gone bad

olrac

Flashlight Enthusiast
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Aug 25, 2007
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Lake Zurich, Illinois, USA
Just finished modding out a cutdown magD (tri-bored) 3 eneloop 2000mah in series, fenix-store p7 heatsink and KaiD mop Alum reflector, curcuit from DarkZero (8xAMC7135 boards for P7 like the one KD sells) Long story short, after everything is together fire it up, very bright looks uneven. pop out the mop reflector put in smooth and it looks like the four diesare all different two are brownish, one has a tinge of brown and the fourth is white like a p4. My soldering was giving me trouble when wiring the emitter using Weller 60W iron and Archer 96 tin 4 silver solder (all I had on hand at the time). I am wondering if it is likely that i cooked the P7(it was already epoxied to heatsink. With the MOP reflector it looks fine and probably would only be noticed by a flashaholic or a very anal retentive person(Given my skills, the later is likely) but I would like to have an idea where I went wrong.
 
I agree with Alex. Is yours a CSWO?

I had a CSWOI that put out a very yellow corona which I did not like. With a sputtered Mag reflector, when out of focus I noticed that 2 of the dies were yellow & the other two were white. I thought I had burned them during testing. I swapped it out for another CSWOI & that one had 1 yellow die.

When in focus using a Mag reflector, the hotspot is very white but has a yellowish corona which I do not like. With a small reflector like the modified Khatod 20mm that I used in my Arc LS the yellow blends in & can't really be noticed.

I too think it's just tint lottery. I want to try the XO bin now.
 
I agree with Alex. Is yours a CSWO?

I had a CSWOI that put out a very yellow corona which I did not like. With a sputtered Mag reflector, when out of focus I noticed that 2 of the dies were yellow & the other two were white. I thought I had burned them during testing. I swapped it out for another CSWOI & that one had 1 yellow die.

When in focus using a Mag reflector, the hotspot is very white but has a yellowish corona which I do not like. With a small reflector like the modified Khatod 20mm that I used in my Arc LS the yellow blends in & can't really be noticed.

I too think it's just tint lottery. I want to try the XO bin now.

I don't think that's tint, I think it's poor Vf matching.
 
With that amount of problems I'd say you got a defective product from the start. Unless you burned it with your soldering iron, which I don't think from your account. Get it exchanged.
Stefan
 
LukeA,

Do you mean the matching Vf of the four die or the driver I'm using in relation to the P7? Just trying to get educated a bit.

There are a number of threads, and it seems (at least to myself and a few others) like the P7 is poorly designed. The dies are all in parallel and there's no mechanism to distribute the current to all four dies equally. Also, the dies are discrete and not necessarily from near each other on the same wafer, so some of the dies can have lower forward voltage drops than others. That lower forward voltage drop allows those dies to draw more current than the others, which heats them up, which reduces their resistance and allows them to draw more current, which heats them up...it's called thermal runaway and it kills LEDs.

I agree with StefanFS, if the emitter was on a heatsink, then you didn't damage it soldering.

I'd say exactly none of this was your fault.
 
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Sorry for your bad luck dude:(. I'm not sure what happened but here is an excerpt from SSC's W724C0.pdf:
Attention in followed.
a. Soldering should be done right after opening the package(within 24Hrs).
b. Keeping of a fraction
- Sealing
- Temperature : 5 ~ 40􀂍 Humidity : less than 30%
c. If the package has been opened more than 1week or the color of desiccant changes,
components should be dried for 10-12hr at 60􀂂5

This seems to indicate it's at least possible to damage an LED from too much heat. I had previously read this same cautionary note in Cree's pdf. They recommend drying in an oven @ 60° centigrade for 12 hours if it's been open for more than a week. Neither Cree nor SSC bother to explain the actual reason for the need to bake the emitter. But it made sense that if the phosphor coating had absorbed some moisture from the air that boiled while soldering, it might delaminate the coating. Would it make the phosphor turn brown? That seems unlikely. Is it brown if you look at it while the light is off? Or is it only brown in the image projected on a wall while operating?
 
They are only brown when projected on white wall, when off all four die look the same no color variation. as far as the package being open or not it does not make sense because there is an opening in the package from factory, looks like a 2-3 mm dia opening in the bottom, so it is not hermetically sealed from factory and is subject to humidity in transit from SSC factory
 
Sorry for your bad luck dude:(. I'm not sure what happened but here is an excerpt from SSC's W724C0.pdf:
Attention in followed.
a. Soldering should be done right after opening the package(within 24Hrs).
b. Keeping of a fraction
- Sealing
- Temperature : 5 ~ 40􀂍 Humidity : less than 30%
c. If the package has been opened more than 1week or the color of desiccant changes,
components should be dried for 10-12hr at 60􀂂5

This seems to indicate it's at least possible to damage an LED from too much heat. I had previously read this same cautionary note in Cree's pdf. They recommend drying in an oven @ 60° centigrade for 12 hours if it's been open for more than a week. Neither Cree nor SSC bother to explain the actual reason for the need to bake the emitter. But it made sense that if the phosphor coating had absorbed some moisture from the air that boiled while soldering, it might delaminate the coating. Would it make the phosphor turn brown? That seems unlikely. Is it brown if you look at it while the light is off? Or is it only brown in the image projected on a wall while operating?

I believe the silicone under the Cree dome absorbs moisture which boils and debonds the silicone from the dome, which causes "bubbles" which are fairly well documented here.
 
I understand that, but what I am saying it that it is not sealed from the factory. There is an opening 2mm in dia in the bottom of the packaging so it is subject to moisture of whatever surroundings it happens to be at even if the top is not opened. That sounds like a fubar on SSC's part if moisture to the dome is such an issue. Or am I missing something here?
 
All P7's are are you described unless you get lucky.

It appears they do not tint match the dies before putting 4 of them in a P7 which in my opinion is poor quality control. They should VF match and tint match before assembling the P7 package.

But as other said this may be noticable if you white wall huning but in real word operation it should go unnoticed.


Mac
 
Direct from the factory, the entire reel is sealed with a desiccant in an air-tight package. The piece you get from your vendor was cut after the reel was opened (i.e. no further moisture protection). The hole in the back of the small piece you received allows the desiccant to absorb moisture as a drop in temperature might increase relative humidity in the sealed reel during shipping. Less than 10% relative humidity in the mid 60°'s F is equivalent to 100% @ 33°F. The royal blue emitter might be able to withstand tremendous heat from soldering. But we are talking about the bond of its fluorescent phosphor coating. It's not necessarily a snafu on SSC's part. It's just the nature of the bond between the phosphor and the emitter.

Sorry to say it sounds more likely that brown only when turned on might be the effect of delamination from too much heat while soldering. Here's another excerpt from W724C0.pdf:
2. Hand Soldering conditions
Lead : Not more than 3 seconds @MAX280􀂍
Slug : Use a thermal-adhesives
Does a 60 watt iron only heat to 536° F? You did say you had some "trouble" while soldering. Was that more than 3 seconds worth of trouble? Is it too late to say I hope I'm wrong? Remember this is all pure speculation on my part.

FWIW, the first LED mod I did was a Fenix P2D that originally had a P4 emitter. I put in a WC tint Q5 binned emitter I bought from Cutter. It was in the mail for a lot longer than a week. I read in a comparable Cree pdf the same moisture waning AFTER my mod. A simple PCX lens used to project the LED's die structure on the wall revealed yellow spots in each of the 9 dies. I always wondered if I damaged it from soldering.

I used a 150 watt Weller gun if it makes you feel any better. I'm sure it didn't stop at 280°C either. We use the same type of ceramic boards that Cree uses on my job. A small screwdriver used to burnish the surface of the contacts and tremendous heat very fast works best. Flow soldering is different because you heat up the whole piece. In fact after several seconds of less heat while hand soldering, it is possible to melt the entire land away. I didn't take any pictures, but I got nice shinny balls from my 150 watt Weller in less than half a second. That's balls largest at the base, so not cold.

Here's an idea, if a little too late to be of use to you. After I Arctic Silver epoxied my P7 onto its MagLite D cell heat sink, I warmed it up with clip leads hooked up to the batteries until it was too hot to handle, before I soldered the leads. Too hot to handle is only 55°C and they say it only needs to be baked to 60°C.
 
I agree completely, QC should be better but in real world application it is not that noticiable especially with a MOP reflector it blends the inconsistencies of the 4 dies, my OP was just a check on my noob abilities VS inconsistent LED.

Thanks to everyone that posted their opinions and knowledge, they were very valuable.




All P7's are are you described unless you get lucky.

It appears they do not tint match the dies before putting 4 of them in a P7 which in my opinion is poor quality control. They should VF match and tint match before assembling the P7 package.

But as other said this may be noticable if you white wall huning but in real word operation it should go unnoticed.


Mac
 
Direct from the factory, the entire reel is sealed with a desiccant in an air-tight package. The piece you get from your vendor was cut after the reel was opened (i.e. no further moisture protection). The hole in the back of the small piece you received allows the desiccant to absorb moisture as a drop in temperature might increase relative humidity in the sealed reel during shipping. Less than 10% relative humidity in the mid 60°'s F is equivalent to 100% @ 33°F. The royal blue emitter might be able to withstand tremendous heat from soldering. But we are talking about the bond of its fluorescent phosphor coating. It's not necessarily a snafu on SSC's part. It's just the nature of the bond between the phosphor and the emitter.

Sorry to say it sounds more likely that brown only when turned on might be the effect of delamination from too much heat while soldering. Here's another excerpt from W724C0.pdf:
2. Hand Soldering conditions
Lead : Not more than 3 seconds @MAX280􀂍
Slug : Use a thermal-adhesives
Does a 60 watt iron only heat to 536° F? You did say you had some "trouble" while soldering. Was that more than 3 seconds worth of trouble? Is it too late to say I hope I'm wrong? Remember this is all pure speculation on my part.

FWIW, the first LED mod I did was a Fenix P2D that originally had a P4 emitter. I put in a WC tint Q5 binned emitter I bought from Cutter. It was in the mail for a lot longer than a week. I read in a comparable Cree pdf the same moisture waning AFTER my mod. A simple PCX lens used to project the LED's die structure on the wall revealed yellow spots in each of the 9 dies. I always wondered if I damaged it from soldering.

I used a 150 watt Weller gun if it makes you feel any better. I'm sure it didn't stop at 280°C either. We use the same type of ceramic boards that Cree uses on my job. A small screwdriver used to burnish the surface of the contacts and tremendous heat very fast works best. Flow soldering is different because you heat up the whole piece. In fact after several seconds of less heat while hand soldering, it is possible to melt the entire land away. I didn't take any pictures, but I got nice shinny balls from my 150 watt Weller in less than half a second. That's balls largest at the base, so not cold.

Here's an idea, if a little too late to be of use to you. After I Arctic Silver epoxied my P7 onto its MagLite D cell heat sink, I warmed it up with clip leads hooked up to the batteries until it was too hot to handle, before I soldered the leads. Too hot to handle is only 55°C and they say it only needs to be baked to 60°C.

I think that based on what you are saying here it probalbly is related to soldering on my part. but with that said it is going to play hell on modders as they are going to receive P7's like I did, out of the OPEN reel and subject to the elements. So maybe the answer is to slow bake the moisture out immediately prior to soldering? Dos the Osram 6 die suffer from this issue as well? Or the P4 for that matter?
 
I think that based on what you are saying here it probalbly is related to soldering on my part. but with that said it is going to play hell on modders as they are going to receive P7's like I did, out of the OPEN reel and subject to the elements. So maybe the answer is to slow bake the moisture out immediately prior to soldering? Dos the Osram 6 die suffer from this issue as well? Or the P4 for that matter?

I don't know if your P7 problem is soldering related or not. I was only trying to suggest when you expressed your initial concern it might be soldering related, that it was certainly a possibility. Contrasting my yellow spotted Q5 modded P2D, I recently bought a 2008 model Olight T10 that has a new style Q5. If I project an image of its emitter on a wall, all 9 blocks are pure white.

As far as Ostars go, I saw the same warning in both Cree and SSC's spec sheets. If I had to guess, and this is only a guess, it sounds like a technology limitation more than a particular manufacturer's problem. Like I said, neither Cree nor SSC said exactly what kind of problems arise from soldering an emitter that has absorbed some moisture.

Yellow or brown spots, if anyone knows for sure the cause of them, we would all love to hear.
 
I have 2 P7's from 2 different sources and noticed the same thin in die colour.

In testing with a aspheric lens, regardless of power in one led has 2 bluish dies and 2 yellowish dies. The other has 3 yellowish dies and one blue.... go figure.

In my case its NOT due to soldering as both leds were tested using thermal epoxy and lead clamps. Not to concerned tho
 
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