Recomendations for the LAPD

MrBenchmark

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Aug 31, 2004
Messages
616
Location
Dallas, TX
[ QUOTE ]
vhyper007 said:
Yessirree,
and while we are at it, let's:
2 restrict all but the use of Daisy pellet pistols
3 deny use of any chemicals which cause tearing and shortness of breath.
(Abbreviated medically as "sob"

Been there, done that.
vhyper007

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, since you sort of mentioned it, the Dallas PD uses these specially modified auto-firing paintball guns now on the weekends in Deep Ellum. Instead of being easily breakable, the paintballs they use have fairly tough plastic shell - they break, but they hurt like hell when you get hit with one. They usually contain some type of UV marking dye, and some of 'em contain pepper spray. If a person is so stupid as to throw a beer bottle down at an officer from above on a balcony, I'm told they fire a stream of shots, walking them up his thigh until just before they hit the groin area. This seems to convince most guys to play nice. Some weekends they go through a couple thousand rounds of ammo on these things.

I found out about this from a police store owner downtown, who sells them.
 

Lightraven

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 2, 2004
Messages
1,170
We have pepperball guns, but they aren't popular because they are a pain to carry around and because using it makes the brass go nuts--like any use of force. Now, supervisors have to ask, "Who is pepperball certified? C'mon raise your hands" and order the people to take 'em out.
 

DimBeam

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Feb 21, 2004
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Location
CT
Interesting article with some historical perspective:



Law Enforcement, Corrections,
Private Security, and Civilian
Risk Management


Flashlights and Liability

by John G. Peters, Jr., M.S., M.B.A.
and Michael A. Brave, Esq., M.S., C.P.S., C.S.T.
(Copyright 1993, by the authors. All rights reserved.)

When the City of Detroit, Michigan paid five million dollars to settle the civil lawsuit regarding the alleged police flashlight beating death of Malice Green, it quickly shifted the media spotlight on the criminal proceedings against the accused officers. However, this incident has re-focused the attention of many law enforcement administrators on the ubiquitous and necessary flashlight. While some administrators will use the Malice Green incident to justify and reinforce a policy of not allowing officers to use the flashlight as a defensive impact tool, others will use this incident to illustrate the improper use of the flashlight, and to highlight what can happen to officers if they misuse this necessary tool. Those administrators who are "on the fence" about what direction to give officers regarding the defensive uses of the flashlight may have a tendency to ban it; an understandable, but unfortunate knee-jerk reaction. And, finally, there are sure to be some departments which do not have a policy on the reasonable defensive uses of a flashlight, leaving its use up to the discretion of the officer. If (s)he uses it properly (assuming the officer is both justified and reasonably trained), the lack of policy may still become a hurdle to be cleared when raised by the plaintiff's attorney. However, if the officer "skulls" someone (whether reasonably justified or not), there is an immediate and negative reaction from Internal Affairs, and a focal point for the plaintiff's attorney.

Regardless of your present position on the use of flashlights as defensive impact tools, we ask that you keep an open mind as you read this article. We will attempt to present a balanced view of the legal and practical pros and cons of allowing officers to use a flashlight -- plastic or metal -- as a defensive impact tool. Policy and training issues will also be addressed.

An Historical View

It was during the late 1890's when flashlights were first sold to the public.(1) Police soon found the hand-held, portable lighting device very useful in their work. And in a short time, the flashlight had been adopted as an ersatz baton, and found its way into excessive use of force claims.(2) But is wasn't until Donald Keller, then a Deputy Sheriff with the Los Angeles (CA) County Sheriff's Department, invented the heavy-duty "Kel-Lite" that the issue of flashlights and force came into its own. By his own admission, Don Keller said that he invented the heavy-duty flashlight primarily as a defensive tool, and secondarily as an illumination device.

After hearing or reading about a flashlight "abuse", case, some administrators have unilaterally banned the heavy-duty, or aluminum, flashlight. They have replaced it with a plastic flashlight, hoping that officers would not strike a person on the head with a flashlight that is prone to breaking. Truthfully, this is treating a problem's "symptom" instead of treating its "cause" -- you know, the banning of citizen's handgun ownership to stop crime (e.g., New York and Washington, D.C.).

The Real World

Noted Pennsylvania police officer and Defensive Tactics Institute, Inc. - qualified Tactical Flashlight Instructor, A. David Berman, focuses on the "cause" of the problem. "An officer must be trained to use the flashlight as a shooting aid, and also as a defensive tactical tool. When a driver is stopped at 2 a.m. and then suddenly exits the car and begins to assault the officer who is holding a flashlight in his/her hand, experience has shown that the officer will likely use the flashlight to help defend against the attacker." We agree. In such a situation, the officer will, most likely, use the flashlight as a "baton" to help defend him/herself. And even though the officer may be legally justified in the force used, liability may be created from the agency's policy. But prior to examining how an agency's policy can trigger liability, let's briefly look at how much force the officer may legally use.

Reasonable Force

Officers, including the one being assaulted during the traffic stop example, may use "objectively reasonable force" to defend him/herself, based upon the totality of the circumstances known to the officer at the time of the event.(3) Any restraint of an individual, lawful or unlawful, by the officer, will be considered a use of force. And, an officer's use of force upon a free citizen is governed by the Fourth Amendment's "objective reasonableness" test.(4)

The officer must be objectively reasonable in his/her application of any force, including the use of a flashlight. Unfortunately, in some cases, officers have used too much force with a flashlight. Most administrators will recall the McDuffy incident where a black motorist died after being pulled over in Miami and allegedly beaten with a flashlight.(5) More recently, the Bobby Jewett incident, involving another Florida police agency, got national attention on the television program "48 Hours." Mr. Jewett was allegedly hitchhiking when he was approached by two West Palm Beach police officers. According to the officers' version of the incident, they hit Mr. Jewett with flashlights to keep him from getting the handgun of one of the involved officers. Although acquitted on criminal charges, the community outrage helped influence the Mayor to bring in former New York City Police Commissioner, Patrick Murphy to conduct an independent investigation. In other flashlight cases, juries have awarded large amounts of money to victims or have sent officers to jail when convicted on criminal charges.(6) Collateral issues of training and policy are often as significant as the excessive force issue.

Training and Policy Considerations

Flashlights don't hit people. At times, law enforcement officers are force to hit people, and sometimes they use a flashlight. Issues such as whether the officer was trained to use the flashlight as a defensive impact tool, or what policies govern its use must be answered by the officer's employer after the lawsuit or criminal charges are filed. To properly examine these two areas, we will first examine policy.

Since officers have a need for hand-held illumination, the agency administrator must decide is (s)he will authorize the flashlight for only illumination purposes. If this becomes policy and the officer is force to use the flashlight as a defensive impact tool, there may not be a question about the level of force, but there may be one regarding the policy infraction. Even though the officer may have been legally justified in using the flashlight to defend him/herself, the officer may be disciplined or terminated, for policy violation. Also, the policy may have inadvertently established a standard which the officer violated and, in some jurisdictions, created liability that could have been avoided, had a realistic, street-useable flashlight impact tool policy been written and adopted.

If the flashlight is issued for both an illumination device and as a defensive impact tool, then officers must be properly trained. Since both of these policies indicate that the flashlight is a required piece of equipment, officers need be trained in its use. In the United States Supreme Court case City of Canton, Ohio v. Harris,(7) officers need to be trained in their core duties. Since the use of the flashlight appears to be a "core duty" under both of our "policies", then officers need to be trained in its proper usage. And this includes its marriage with firearms, too.(8)

An agency's failure to train its officers may result in "deliberate indifference". Specifically, the Canton Court ruled that, 'Only where failure to train reflects a `deliberate' or `conscious' choice by a municipality [in other words] a `policy' as defined by our prior cases - can a city be held liable to such failure under [42 U.S.C.] Section 1983."(9) One crucial issue in a failure to train case will be whether inadequate training practices 'can justifiably be said to represent city policy."(10) flashlight training, should, at the very least, allow law enforcement employers to stay below the 'deliberate indifference" threshold.

A flashlight training program must include how to use the flashlight as a defensive impact tool, what areas of the human body to generally avoid (unless the officer or a third party is faced with the imminent threat of deadly force), plus the constitutional limitations of the use of force. In Davis v. Mason County (11) there are more training aids and policies which direct officers on the proper use of the flashlight, including the International Association of Chiefs of Police Training Key # 76 which discusses the structural weaknesses of the human body.(12) Many criminal justice agencies have implemented flashlight training programs, and in some cases, have even had their liability insurance premiums lowered.(13) But training and policies are no "magical cure" for avoiding flashlight liability.

Supervision Too

First-line supervisors need to understand the policies which govern the officer's use of the flashlight. Also, they need to be trained in the proper use of the flashlight. Because first-line supervisors are often sued in addition to the officer who was at the scene, they, too, face liability.(14) Many agencies have trained selected first-line supervisors as "tactical flashlight instructors" to better able them to monitor officers' use of this necessary piece of police equipment.

Conclusion

When there is a "bad" shooting or a high-speed chase which ends in a fatality, police administrators do not ban firearms or squad cars. Conversely, when an officer strikes a person with his/her flashlight, often times, the knee-jerk reaction is to "ban" flashlights. Banning heavy-duty flashlights, issuing flashlights too small to be used as a defensive impact tool, or directing officers to carry only plastic flashlights is not the solution to the problem. After all, plastic lights can break upon impact, and then severely cut the person with the ragged, broken edges of plastic. Solid policies coupled with job-related training can help to minimize your agency's liability. These steps are designed to help solve the problem, which should prevent a Malice Green incident from occurring in your agency.

Copyright 1993 by Michael A. Brave and John G. Peters, Jr. All rights reserved.
 

JasonC8301

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"Better the suspect dead than me." (spin o0ff of FMJ) I know thats cruel but it works right?

I recommend a Tigerlight with OC spray. Aww tearing and shortness of breath for a few hours is better than 2 .45's in the head and one in the chest. I rather take OC than get shot. It surely sucks but I can deal with it. The tearing will end, eventually.

Sucks cops get burned for saving their lives and protecting their safety.
 

Topper

Flashaholic*
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North East Arkansas
I think they should ban video cams. Not nocking all police however the LAPD is quite infamous for getting on tape beating folks for whatever. Oh for a flashlight I would pick the SF C3.
Topper /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 

rgp4544

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May 26, 2004
Messages
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[ QUOTE ]
NewBie said:
Whatever happened about the big PR thing LAPD did where they said they were going to design their own light?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think they still want their own special little light. My guess is that their attorneys told them that if they buy something off the shelf that fits the requirements they claim to have, it could be considered as evidence of negligence on the part of the department for not having purchased them sooner, and open them to more wacko lawsuits.

Richard.
 

Lightraven

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According to news reports on KFI radio AM 640, LAPD couldn't find any manufacturers that could/would make the flashlight to their specs.

Just give everybody a Polystinger and a G2 and be done with it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
 

enLIGHTenment

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[ QUOTE ]
JasonC8301 said:
Sucks cops get burned for saving their lives and protecting their safety.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. It was a real tragedy when the LAPD got into so much hot water when its officers protected themselves from Rodney King....


Cops aren't always the good guys.
 

Samuel

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Nov 29, 2004
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Los Angeles County
[ QUOTE ]
enLIGHTenment said:
When it comes to 'subduing suspects,' the LAPD has much more severe problems than merely what tool its officers use.

Give 'em small flashlights, collapsable batons, and training to the effect that the vast majority of police-public interactions do not involve beating people up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll be willing to bet you have absolutely NO law enforcement experience working in Los Angeles and have little to no LE experience/knowledge in general.

We don't shoot people all that often either - following your so-called "reasoning", if we had "proper" training, we could get by with carrying BB guns instead of large(r) caliber firearms... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

To you guys who have posted in support of LE, thanks.
 

Samuel

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Nov 29, 2004
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Los Angeles County
[ QUOTE ]
enLIGHTenment said:
Yeah. It was a real tragedy when the LAPD got into so much hot water when its officers protected themselves from Rodney King....
Cops aren't always the good guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Yes, there are bad apples EVERYWHERE.

2. Your attitude SUCKS!

Do us American LEOs a favor, keep your butt on that side of the border... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

99.999% of the time (made up statistic), if a subject just follows an LEO's instructions/orders, there is NO ISSUE!

In idiot Rodney's case, if he had simply pulled over...
 

Samuel

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Los Angeles County
Oh btw, wrto the original question, kinda along the same lines as what Bronco said, I recommend that Bratton grow a spine and stand up for his line staff in the trenches. Keep whatever flashlights they are using now.

Also, do most of you know that Stanley Miller had NO (as in ZERO) impact weapon/flashlight related injuries to his head?
 

DimBeam

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Joined
Feb 21, 2004
Messages
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Location
CT
[ QUOTE ]
enLIGHTenment said:
[ QUOTE ]
JasonC8301 said:
Sucks cops get burned for saving their lives and protecting their safety.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. It was a real tragedy when the LAPD got into so much hot water when its officers protected themselves from Rodney King....


Cops aren't always the good guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeh poor Rodney, he was one of the "good" guys. Let's see ....how many times has he been arrested since the famous incident? 5,6, countless. I guess beating up women and basically doing what he wants with his multi million dollar settlement proves that justice was done. Am I justifying what the police did to him...no. But was it worth it for LA to go up in flames, ruin a bunch of cops lives, have dozens of people die for this crackhead PCP animal? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
 

Greg

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Apr 19, 2004
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Toronto, ON, Canada
Wow, this has the potential to become a very heated discussion.

As for the flashlight, wouldn't any commercial light that they purchase (ie: stinger, polystinger, G2) etc outperform their maglite. In this case, even though there is a lot of crap going down because of these lights, in the long run won't they be better equipped by obtaining a better illumination tool.

And now for my two cents worth on the flashlight baton issue.

Even though I am not an LEO, I realize the crap that cops have to deal with. One thing many people fail to realize is that these individuals are human, and have the same responses to stimuli that most people will have even with the extensive training. There are times when your body just reacts without even thinking. So if you have a mag in your hands and you feel threatened, you are going to most likely whack the guy.

I bet that in retrospect, all the cops who used them would say it would be better to have used the baton, but when you are in a particular situation, you head doesn't always think straight and you use what you can to get out of it. I think until all of us on this forum who are putting down LEOs for their actions need to honestly think of what is going on in an LEO's head when this stuff happens. Imagine yourself in their shoes, and then comment.

Although, I am sure all will agree, that there are times when the police are somewhat overly aggressive.
 

PeteBroccolo

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Weyburn, Saskatchewan, Canada
From the perspective of:
- being an LEO/PO with over 29 years experience, much of it working nights;
- being the owner of a few flashlights during those years (4D Kel, 3C Mag, 5D Radio Shack $0.99 special, Pelican M6, Pila GL3R);
- being a user of some issued lights (3D Brightstar, Polystinger);
- having used one or more of those lighting tools as an improvised defensive impact weapon at times;
- having been trained to use a solid plastic straight defensive baton, which neither I nor many other of my fellow members carried due to its cumbersomeness;
- having been trained to use a collapsible steel defensive baton, which I, and most of my fellow members, do carry, although I have only drawn it once and did NOT have to strike the client that I was dealing with;
I would STRONGLY recommend to the LAPD that they purchase and issue to each of their members:
- 1 collapsible steel defensive baton;
- 1 medium sized rechargeable main duty light;
- 1 compact sized 123A disposable lithium powered always-on-the-belt back-up light
which are already commercially available, along with suitable holsters or carrying rings for each of the above tools, and ensure that their members are properly trained in the use of them.

Why risk damaging a high-quality lighting tool, if you have another defensive impact tool available to you, ESPECIALLY if you have paid for it out of your own pocket? No matter what defensive impact tool you use, you MUST be cautious when using same, and be able to justify that level of force when deploying same, or realize that you will be held accountable for your actions.
 

dano

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East Bay, Cali.
This thread is SO close to being closed...KEEP IT ON TOPIC!

LAPD has already chosen, so all this debate is a dead issue.

-dan
 
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